The heroes of Angmar - Your feedback

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

Greetings, Companions of Edain!

Once you were able to play a few days with Angmar, we noticed that many reviews and critics agree in the high selection of recruitable heroes.
Many heroes are from the former Angmar-RPG in which some members of the Edain teams have participated. The merge with the heroes of the expansion ,, Rise of the Witch King " had found a heroic team of 9 heroes, which is significantly more than in other factions.
Therefore we want to give you the opportunity to explain your opinion and thoughts.
And of course, you can post why you have decided. Equally you could also attach a suggestion, if you have the opinion that a merger of two heroes is necessary/beneficial.
If you think none of the heroes should be removed, then select the last option.

Attempts at your choice think ahead a little.
E.g .: If Durmarth be removed, who should act in the future as a hero slayer?
Should Drauglin be removed, who takes over the role of a scout?
etc.

This is, as always, a poll that defines an opinion.


Your edain-team

[ringbearer]

I choose Helegwen. Helegwen because her inpact on game is really minimal.  He has interesting stance system but that's it :/ In my opinion, there is no stage in a game where you have to build her to win or gain some advance.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I actually do not mind the amount of Heroes in a Faction as long as there is Balance between the Facctions, and it is not like one Faction to have 9-10 Heroes and another 4-5.

I like what you have done with Angmar and the incredible story you havr created forthe each Hero. And love to play with them.

But if someone should be removed I would choose Helegwen,because I feel that she is kinda most out of place and doesn't contribute much to Angmar game play.

Greetings! :-)

[makis89]

I choose Gulzar  because even if i like him and he is suitable in Angmar faction as a dark sorcerer i don't know how to play him. His cost is too high and his abilities not so good...

[Adrigabbro]

I voted for Helegwen and Karsh, even though I don't want Karsh to be removed. The reason why I also picked him is that changing Karsh to a temporary hero, just like in 3.8.1, is an option I'm comfortable with if Angmar heroes get out of hand.
However, My number one choice is definitely Helegwen, for two reasons. First, she is the last hero you guys came up with ; Zaphragor, Gulzar, Mornamarth and Durmarth were already here in 3.8.1 and I've grown quite fond of them and all the former Angmar-RPG, I personally don't want them to be removed. The second reason is her skillset: it is conceptually overpowered, it includes too many crowd controls (Angmar has enough freezing ability with Durmarth and Zaphragor) and her final ability is way too strong. I do like the ice wall summon though. If you decide to keep her, I'd suggest to rework her a bit ; for instance, I'd remove her final ability, remove frost arrows and put the toggle between steel and ice arrows as a first ability.
I also don't want Drauglin or Hwaldar to be removed: Angmar needs a scout hero -and Drauglin is a very unique and cool one- and Hillmen need a chieftain.

[Garlodur]

I agree with the high amount of heroes but it is a shame that some of the work the ET put in will be lost when we take away heroes. In the essence, I find Helegwen's role superfluous: she is not much of anything but tickling the enemy. She has very little resistance to attacks and is barely an annoyance herself. Her abilities beside the arrow stances are not very interesting and there is no point in the game where I decide that she will make the difference, she simply does not fit in my tactics as a hero that needs a lot of micro managing. Her arrow switching can be implemented in the Carn Dûm archers in some way, e.g. an arrow volley of Frozen arrows.

In general I find that Angmar needs a lot of micromanaging because there are different ways to handle the enemy. This makes for a variety of possible tactics but its real strength lies in MP matches, I imagine, because of the created uncertainty among opponents. The heroes are no exception as Zaphragor, Gulzar, Drauglin, Durmarth and Helegwen need a lot of attention while playing. The Witch-King and Mornamarth can easily be send off with an army of Men of Carn Dûm, Hwaldar with all the thrall summons and Karsh defending your burrows, whereas the aforementioned are very vulnerable once you lose track of them.

Example of this is Gulzar: he does not do significant damage (much like the Necromancer, but toned down) and his abilities revolve around his acolytes that spread the plague just like in the spellbook. This makes him not as useful to every player as he needs to use his acolytes effectively to level up and use them even more effectively. His final ability sounds quite cool in theory but I have not tested it extensively. If this ability is the only reason to keep him I suggest moving it to a hero like Dûrmarth. Zaphragor could be made into a more powerful mass-slayer to make up for Gulzar's absence.

I would like to see other people's opinions.

[Walküre]

I don't want to question one of the pillars of the faction (that I also accept as something quite consolidated in the faction itself), but I never really liked all the 'sacrifice motive' lying behind the usage of sorcery in Angmar, nor do we really have in the lore any consistent reference to sacrifices of that kind in evil Magic in general.
Anyway, as I said, I accept this if we take into consideration that we have so little material about Angmar in the official lore, and that many things are consolidated elements within the Community.
Nevertheless, I think Gulzar should be removed.
I personally have no motivation, interest nor advantage in recruiting him while playing; my interpretation of Magic is the major reason.

I find Helegwen the most innovative hero of Angmar (also for the fact of being the first and only female evil hero in the game), and I think she was implemented for this very reason.
She is also very versatile and can count on very smart and effective abilities. I see the German Community has poured a lot of efforts in conceiving her, and the result is simply great.
If another hero has to be removed, I think she could easily take Drauglin's role as a Scout Hero too.

[Hamanathnath]

If I were to choose one, Helegwen would be my choice.  When I do use her, it is mainly for her Crowd Control options, but like others have said, past that, she really doesn't have much of a Role in Angmar.  Angmar already has a lot of Crowd Control options anyways.  But.....

Here is the problem.  Removing just one of the heroes won't really fix the problem, especially if that hero is Helegwen.  The heroes will still have the same problem of using Crowd Control options to pretty much nullify Armies, and ganging up on other heroes.  I would like to see some of the heroes, especially the ones that cost less, to have a smaller amount of health and/or, weaker stats in general.  If I remember correctly, Hwaldar has 4500 at a cost of 1100 resources, with also a good amount of damage.  This, in my opinion, is too much.  I know that some other factions have this as well, but they don't have as many heroes as Angmar. 

If you do remove Helegwen, I have a suggestion to make about moving some of her abilities.  Namely, her last ability (the damage increase of Ice Arrows and Ice Shots) and the Ice Wall summon (I don't know the faction well enough to know the names of all the heroes abilities ).  I want both these to be upgrades to the Sorcerer's Tower upgrade on the Outpost.  Right now, the Garrison Tower is just better becuase of how you pretty much need the Men of Carn Dum to win matches.  Upgrading the Sorcerer's Tower with these upgrades would definitely make it a more compare able choice.  It also would fit in to the Sorcerer's Tower magic/elemental theme of the upgrade (maybe it can be called Tower of the Elements).  The Ice Walls can be a permanent upgrade to the Outposts defenses, because the Garrison Tower already has a permanent defensive upgrade in the archers that defend the Citadel.  And Helegwen current last ability would just make the Sorcerer's Tower more appealing, because upgrading the damage of Archers and Catapults is very useful. 

What do you think of this idea?

Greetings, Hamanathnath

[Odysseus]

How about we balance the damn heroes first before we start removing them . I mean, it would be a waste of effort to just ditch them now. 4.3 hasn't even been out for like a week, and we already want to remove Angmar's heroes because there are supposedly too many? Is is not way too early to come up with such a conclusion.?

First of all, I gave my feedback on the heroes in the internal forums, so I would like to have some feedback on that. Secondly, I agree that out of all heroes, Helegwen is the most out of place because she has very little support for troops and already has a playstyle that other heroes of the roster provide or the Spellbook provides sufficiently with stuns and AOE spells. That said, it would be quite the stab in the back for the German community to remove her.

My personal concern is mostly Zaphragor at the moment. He seems to outshine the Witch-King with his abilities, and he is cheaper too. His feet are too big and he is taller than the Witch-King. There, I said it . Oh and Hwaldar and Durmarth stats might need some fine-tuning too imo.

Ultimately, I believe the problem with Angmar to be that heroes have way too many additional aspects. The faction has like 4-5 heroes with the ability to use mass slayer abilities. Even though the old 2015 document does not state it quite so, I believe most of Angmar's heroes have way too many abilities that are extremely good for their costs compared to the other factions' heroes.

If you look at Angmar, the Witch-King is the leader, the pinnacle and ruler. But at the moment, most heroes of Angmar can already fulfill his role with less costs. Zaphragor can blow apart squads with his AOE abilities, Helegwen has a slightly weaker wizard blast with arrows, Gulzar can summon plague bearers, Mornamarth has a large splash attack with Blood and Iron, Karsh has the huge life steal, even Drauglin has the razor crescent ability. Only Hwaldar and Durmarth do not have some kind of mass slayer ability. And as Haman pointed out, mass slaying being a form of crowd control, the faction teems with crowd control. I believe, just like in 3.8.1, the specific heroes should be more supportive to their specific cult in Angmar's society. The Witch King should be the grant leader, the mass slayer with a hero killer and support aspect. As such, you could make him cost 3500, like Mordor's Witch King with armour and improve his abilities a bit.

Hwaldar should mostly support hill-men only, and those Bone Breakers with his abilities. Also, that level 10 ability should not one-shot buildings, no ability should really do that, apart from Isengard mines perhaps.
Karsh should support Barrow Wights more. Durmarth should support on foot Black/Shadow Guard more, while the Witch-King could have some support for mounted Shadow Guard. Mornamarth should exploit his Men of Carn-Dûm less, and support them more instead. Gulzar should be more supportive of sorcerers. Drauglin in wolf form could support dire wolves more etc. Orcs and trolls should remain unsupported because they are at the bottom of the chain of command in Angmar's man-dominated society and serve the role of labour or combat fodder.

You can see where I am going with this. Before all of that, I would sternly advise against removing any heroes at the moment, and balance/sort them out first. Only after that, would I check again if removal would serve as a solution. If you give them less crowd control and more supportive functions with the varied unit roster Angmar has, you can better justify the high amount of heroes Angmar has. In that way, you can tailor your hero selection to the strategy you wish to employ during a game, combining specific troops and heroes. For example, if you go extensive barrow-wights, you would go Karsh to support them and not go Hwaldar for instance. But now, you can easily combine these, having both Karsh performing quite well together with Hill-men or orcs. This is just an example, but I think it applies almost to the entire faction.

Just my two cents.

[Fredius]

I feel like I'm the only one here who prefers to use Helegwen as one of the first heroes in a game . I'm a turtle style player, meaning that I lock myself in the fortress and build up my army slowly and steadily. I always put Helegwen on the walls and let her shoot at a the enemy, which levels her up rapidly. Once leveled up she is a great archer hero who can one-shot kill many units, and as a bonus, you can put other hero's next to her, and they will level up together with her everytime she kills an enemy unit. I believe her to be super effective, when used in the right way.

However I never use heroes like Gulzar and Durmath. I don't see why the sorcerers need a hero among them; the greatest sorcerer of Angmar is the Witch-King after all. And gameplay-wise I find the other heroes more interesting and would rather spend my resources on them than Gulzar. That's why Gulzar is my least favorite hero.

I never use Durmath because I don't really understand his role, and, like Gulzar, would prefer to spend my resources on other heroes instead of him.

[Walküre]

First of all, I gave my feedback on the heroes in the internal forums, so I would like to have some feedback on that.

Regardless of the answers you may receive in that thread, I think it should be better if we just shared every consideration of ours in this public space, with anyone of the Community interested in this discussion. The 4.3 version is now publicly out, and the Edain Team has exactly asked for our opinions in this section in the first place. I believe you could definitely gather more feedback and responses here, being this a very topical thread (aimed to decide about very significant matters). Do as you are more comfortable, though, as I have no jurisdiction over the internal forum; just some thoughts of mine 

That said, it would be quite the stab in the back for the German community to remove her.

I completely agree with you.

I feel like I'm the only one here who prefers to use Helegwen as one of the first heroes in a game . I'm a turtle style player, meaning that I lock myself in the fortress and build up my army slowly and steadily.

No, you are not alone 
I exactly do the same thing. If placed on the walls in the early stages of the game, Helegwen can indeed reveal her true potential (while, as you rightly wrote, benefitting directly as she levels up).

[Hamanathnath]

I never use Durmath because I don't really understand his role, and, like Gulzar, would prefer to spend my resources on other heroes instead of him.

Trust me, Durmarth is worth the money if you know what you are doing with him.  His named role is Hero-Killer, but he also has a lot of support abilities, especially in his Guardsmen Form, where most of his abilities support his allies.  While his Warrior form is more focused on Hero-Killing and protecting himself.  The Seals he gets make him extremely versatile too.  He also has a passive out of combat heal in Guardsmen form (I think at level 8), which is very valuable because Angmar has no healing Spellbook Power.  And he also has the chance of freezing armies with every attack once Level 10 in Warrior form.  He does have a slower start then most heroes, but once leveled, Durmarth can be quite devastating.

[DrHouse93]

I completely agree with Fredius and DieWalkure. Beyond than liking her because she's the only evil heroine, I find Helegwen also quite useful, usually trying to get her as soon as possible once I have enough Carn Dum bowmen, which would make them even more dangerous. As an example, leaving Helegwen equipped with Freezing Arrows would mean slowing down nearly anything while your bowmen slay them. Cavalry charges? No problem -> a Multishot of Freezing Arrows (and maybe an additional Frost Arrow Volley) would slow it down (if you have enough timing you can even completely freeze it with the Frost Arrow Volley) while your Bowmen can take care of them. I also like the awesome boost she grants at level 10 to Ice Ammunitions and Frost Arrows. Not to mention the usefulness she has when attacking enemy buildings: all you had to do is switching to Ice Arrows and let her lead your bowmen to destroy the enemy buildings. Also, given her low price as well as her frailty and the attention she needs to not be surrounded (and eventually die), I think she's quite ok the way it is right now^^

On the other hand, two heroes whom I can find myself comfortable of are Durmarth and Gulzar. I've recruited Durmarth just once, and I must say I really never understood his gameplay. I mean, I think that having to neverending switch between his Warrior and Guard mode (let's say it, which player doesn't use heroes on his army?) to counter both enemy units and heroes would make any player crazy. On the other hand, I like Gulzar's capability of spamming infected acolytes and the Plague overall, but usually, given his price, when I can get him I already don't need anymore his Plague spreading capabilities (not to mention his ridiculously low damage)

Last, I'd like to say that maybe, as many pointed out, the Witch-king's role could be improved, mainly because, despite the fact that he's one of the characters I like more, other Angmar heroes can cover his role better than him for a lower price. Keep in mind, though, that I don't want any hero to be removed: I think that, if there's something which is not of my likings, the best solution would be to not use that, rather than asking to remove it^^

[Elite KryPtik]

I just want to state I have not read earlier posts in this thread, so I'm posting this without knowledge of what other people have said. I personally think that Gulzar only should be removed, I think he is really unnecessary and weak. I see no real purpose for him to be on the battlefield, his abilities require a huge amount of micromanagement based around the plague bearers, and additionally the Sorcerers are a very late game unit. Early game consists of orc/hillmen spam and Hwaldar, followed by karsh and wights, followed by the rest of the heroes and the men of carn dum. By the time you even get sorcerers and gulzar out, the match is probably already over.

[Hamanathnath]

As an example, leaving Helegwen equipped with Freezing Arrows would mean slowing down nearly anything while your bowmen slay them. Cavalry charges? No problem -> a Multishot of Freezing Arrows (and maybe an additional Frost Arrow Volley) would slow it down (if you have enough timing you can even completely freeze it with the Frost Arrow Volley) while your Bowmen can take care of them.

Well you are correct about this.  However, here is the problem.  You can also say:

"Cavalry charges? No problem -> Fellwind would slow it down..."
Or
"Cavalry charges? No problem -> Frozen Land would slow it down..."
Or
"Cavalry charges? No problem -> Sorcerer's Soul Freeze would slow it down..."
Or
"Cavalry charges? No problem -> Karsh's stun would slow it down..."

I think you get my point.  Angmar has so many forms of Crowd Control.  I didn't even list all of them in this post.  And it's not like all these forms of Crowd Control are gotten late in the game.  They can all be gotten within the first few minutes of a game.  And Helegwen, in my opinion, just doesn't give Angmar something they don't already have, besides being a ranged hero.

[Julio229]

I'd keep all Heroes. One of the things I love most about Angmar is their variety. For me, it is the biggest selling point of this faction, because I can plan a lot of different strategies with them, and if Heroes got removed, it would lose a little of what makes it a great faction.

[bookworm1138]

Nevertheless, I think Gulzar should be removed.
I personally have no motivation, interest nor advantage in recruiting him while playing.

I agree with Walk on this one. We already have the plague represented in the tier 3 spell from the spell-book, which is good enough as it is in my opinion.

For my second pick, I would say Durmarth. Not only does his voice sound out of place (an American accent in Middle Earth when everyone else is English? Also some of his lines are far too modern for this setting: "Need a breather", "Weapons ready" and, possibly the most immersion breaking of them all, "Bless me for I have sinned"), but I never really have any use for his abilities. If anything, Mornamarth's level 10 ability (where he makes all the Men of Carn Dum on the map powerful, but then they die afterwards) should be replaced with Durmarth's hero-killer ability. I think the pay-off of ALL those resources going into your MoCD army just to have them killed off is very small.

[Draco100000]

I think the problem is that all heros are too awesome in their jobs. I think the unique hero is out of place is Helegwen because he adds something that the faction dont need: mass slaying ( Zaphragor and Gulzar) and crowd control (karsh and the witchking).

Anyway i find them quite well balanced, they have already good dmg fitting their roles, but this make the faction really powerfull. i think angmar should improve his roster( i find a bit weak the amount of troops you get all angmar troops are very expensive and are easily outnumbered/destroyed by their same tier units from other factions).

You have made Angmar really hero dependant. After play with them i think Helegwen should be removed. She looks amazing but, she is not necessary sadly.

Gulzar is very good i like him very much but if we have to quit 2 heros he would be the second.

Instead of remove heros you could make Karsh summoneable again and permanent once the witchking upgrades him, like in 3.8.1.

Draugulin fits very well as scout. Hwaldar, Zaphragor and Monamarth are like part imposible to delete from the faction, key heros I would say.

Finally Durmath always disgusted me because i find him too powerfull in both versions with his passives and stages, if you remove him i wouldnt be sad. As hero killer we already have Monamarth nearby king´s men and Zaphragor with low health. Hwaldar dmg is also very big.

Anyway the faction is awesome and any change you would make them will be fine.