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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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Walküre:
As far as I know, the Gundabad subfaction will indeed be mostly based on the Hobbit (as pretty much the whole faction). What is exactly not clearly known yet is how much of BOTFA is to be implemented; the very news that concerns the Misty Mountains was published before the actual release of the film. So far, it's been officially stated that the Gundabad fortress' design won't be part of the faction as the Edain Team didn't like it very much (I quite share the same opinion) and didn't deem it appropriate enough for their own interpretation.

That said, not so much has been revealed about units and heroes, as it would have objectively been too early for such indications. Henceforth, as I made it clear in my previous comment, it's still a bit premature to immerse ourselves in major debates of this sort; the Misty Mountains are not in the Betatesting phase yet. Things had thus better take their needed time. I'm nonetheless very pleased to see that the interest, apart from obvious reasons, is more than alive! I assure you that debating these and other prominent matters will be my personal onus  ;)

Fredius:
Weren't the Angmar Gundabad Orcs not renamed to just Angmar Orcs, and therefore don't belong to Gundabad anymore?

DrHouse93:
I'd like to propose again an old idea of mine: the design of Moria buildings

While I completely agree with the fact that Moria Goblins should be the starting Orc realm for the Misty Mountains, and I love the design developed by the team, I think it's terribly nosense that the buildings of the Goblins of Moria are ruined versions of Dwarven buildings. Why this? For two main reasons:

1. Having Goblins infesting ruined Dwarven buildings is an awesome idea. Atleast, in maps actually related to the Dwarves (the Caradhras, Eregion, and so on). But, if you're playing on maps like Eastern Rohan, or The Shire, why the heck should the Dwarves have built a castle/camp in there, only to have it be destroyed and infested later on by Goblins?

2. If we consider that's the style of the Goblins of Moria, why should they copy the design of the Dwarves, but ruining their buildings? (they shouldn't even have their 'architectural' skills) Wouldn't it be more logical if they had their own design, which is more fitting on neutral maps?

So, here's my proposal: On maps related to the Dwarves (like the above mentioned Caradhras, High Pass, Ered Luin, and so on) the Misty Mountains will start with a ruined Dwarven camp as their main base. However, on all the remaining maps, the Misty Mountains will start with the same units and heroes, but their base will have the design of the standard Goblin faction from BFME 2 (it's a similar, yet different, mechanic of Arnor maps. In these ones, Arnor completely replaces Gondor. In Dwarven-related maps, the Misty Mountains will have a "Moria-style" base rather than their default style, but keeping units, heroes and spellbook unaffected)

So what happens to the Gundabad Outpost? Rather than using the default Goblin design from BFME2, it can have a completely new style (maybe based on the movie version of Gundabad) OR their buildings can be a mix between Goblin structures and Angmar ones

This way, the Misty Mountains will have an even more unique system, yet remaining canonical to the lore

Walküre:
I completely disagree with you, DrH. The reasons are multiple and encompass various aspects. I will summarise them to make it all simpler.

1. The kind of system you proposed is objectively too ossified and complex to adapt to a Mod with these standards. We are not talking about some map features or exceptions as Arnor; this is an entire structured and canonical faction to deal with, characterised by recognisable distinctive and unique traits as all the other ones. Having different designs depending on selected maps would 'ruin' the very conceptual unity of the faction itself and complicate everything without any real need that justifies this. Why would you ever make things complicated when they are already quite fine-tuned at the moment?

2. The main reasoning underlying your proposal is, in my opinion, quite naïve, if we take into account the basic gameplay requirements of the game. It would undoubtedly be a reasonable argument if we were to view things in a very purely logical perspective; but I'm afraid it doesn't apply to the common and usual context. For example, I could also question: why does Lothlórien start with luxuriant forest-castles or forest-camps in hostile (in a geographical and physical point of view, especially) maps as Mordor or Mount Doom? Can't we have (I'm inventing) a burnt/marred design when it comes to this sort of environment? The same could be said about Rivendell's holy sanctuaries and Gondor's mighty fortresses. This logic is just too dry to be even slightly manageable in practice.

3. The central heart of the Misty Mountains is the Moria subfaction for prominent reasons: the known iconic reference to the now legendary Moria sequence of the Fellowship of the Ring, the ordinary Goblins stick exactly to PJ's early interpretation (which I think is absolutely superior to the one of the Hobbit trilogy, in spite of the respect I have for the latest trilogy, and an absolutely coherent transposition), the Balrog lies dormant in the deepest caverns of this lost realm and, although set in the Hobbit timeline, this subfaction is the closest of the three to the War of the Ring timeline that most of the factions follow. Nevertheless, the faction will anyway contain mostly Hobbit-related content and I thus hope more improvements will be pursued in this direction; but I guess the 'supremacy issue' among the three souls of the Misty Mountains is undeniably tied to Moria due to the points exposed above. Nothing would ever capture the entire dark, eerie, dreadful and ghoulish essence of the Goblins better than Moria's cinematographic rendition  :)

4. Connecting to the third point, the graphical design of Moria was exactly fashioned on those canonical and iconic premises, recreating the ghostly 'tomb' about which Boromir talks (the very colour of the buildings has been darkened to resemble even more what we see in LOTR). The fact that this once prosperous Dwarven kingdom is now swarmed by packs of wicked Goblins is well displayed by the current representation and it couldn't honestly do more honour to this race's true nature.

5. I had the feeling that the Gundabad subfaction is portrayed more as the gathering of the Defiler's hunters, embodying thus a wandering motive different from the major characteristics I listed in the previous passages. I also don't like very much the vanilla design of BFME2, as it reminds me of how loose and flawed the Goblins were back in the day (with little consistency and even less adherence to the lore or to the films). Therefore, I sincerely believe, if we really were to choose the hegemonic subfaction out of the three, I would rather opt for the new, unique, innovative and very Edain-ish Moria  8-)

P.S. It's really interesting to notice how this faction manages to put me in an unusual good mood. Don't misunderstand me though, my awe is primarily due to firm contempt towards such nasty creatures; in addition, the fact that many grotesque sides of BOTFA will hopefully be explored properly is a favourable scope for hoping that other eerie aspects of the same film will be considered as well...  ;)

Julio229:
I love having a thread for Misty Mountains! It will probably be my favourite faction, so I hope this thread is used a lot to discuss it!

I agree with DieWalküre on the Moria topic, the Dwarven-Infested buildings and the Moria scenes in FOTR are way too iconic for the Moria Goblins.

I didn't dislike original BFME2's Goblins concept, but it is true that it didn't truly embody the dark and even mysterious feeling that Moria Goblins have. It will be great to see so much variety in Misty Mountains. From the even humorous Goblin-Town goblins to the mysterious Moria ones, and even maintaining the vanilla design for buildings in the Gundabad subfaction!

I believe I don't have to say it, but Misty Mountains is the faction I've been waiting the most for!

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