Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

[Walküre]

Will the "Siege" update come this year?

This kind of information is not provided here and in these terms (the topic of the thread is another one). The update will be released once it's ready to be so 

[WarOfTheRingVeteran]

Have the units and heroes of Misty Mountain changed since this article was published?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two

Well, there is some new stuff; Great Goblin and The Defiler have been reworked:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/the-great-goblin2#imagebox
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/the-defiler1#imagebox  (respectively, as if anyone needed this XD

..and a new hero has been added: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/the-hunter#imagebox  about who you can read here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-the-scout-heroes

Also a new article has been posted: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-of-trolls-and-army-commanders

I'm pretty sure that's it. And this: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/improved-widescreen-interface8#imagebox , though you've probably seen it already.

[dkbluewizard]

Good day everyone,

Anyhow, I know that ET has selected the dragon Smaug to be the Ringhero of the Misty Mountains and I know that they have also selected William, Bert, and Tom, Bolg, and many other heroes to represent the Misty Mountains during the "Hobbit" timeline.

While I do not have an issue with this, ET focuses on War of the Ring, and many of the characters listed in Misty Mountains are dead by the time of War of the Ring.

I mean, ET could still use Gorkil the Moria Goblin Chief, but I would like to see Misty Mountains have the ability to pick from their old heroes: (Original Great Goblin design from Edain, Original characters that Edain Team had before the Hobbit movies were finished) just so they can participate in the War of the Ring and become more canonical.

Or are we saying that just mishmash them with War of the Ring and who gives a rats?

Anyhow, if this system cannot be included for the heroes, then I would like to see this system included on certain maps if possible with all Third Age heroes like the Balrog, Moria Goblin Chief, new Great Goblin, Bruhdur of the trolls, etc.

Because Misty Mountains, like all factions of Middle Earth, deserve to be more canonical. And most assuredly there would be a new Great Goblin/Ruler over Goblin Gate and Gundabad.

I don't know, what do you guys think. I don't think this is too much to ask and the armies would stay the same, be built the same way and utilize the same units, only thing that would change is their heroes to represent both timelines. I think since there is an Arnor way of doing this and a Dwarf way of doing this, I can only see this making the faction that much more interesting.

"But Dkbluewizard, what about powers?"

Again, with the Arnor system, the powers were totally different. Also, if a certain time period is chosen for the Misty Mountains, then the last powers would change. Instead of summoning the Balrog, you summon an average dragon from vanilla BFME2.

If you choose to play the Hobbit time period, then you get the Balrog summon (which Edain is doing anyways). So I think these all work out and it make the Misty Mountains more interesting, fun, and canonical.

But as always there is the challenge of coding. Which I still think it could be done rather easily given the Dwarf and Arnor system that we have.

Let me know how I have disgruntled you guys. I really don't see an issue with this and would like to see this more canonical to Tolkien's work. It would still be balanced. Let me know what you all think.

--dkbluewizard.

[Walküre]

Thank you for having shared with us your suggestions, Blue. First of all, I will merge the topic with another far wider thread about the Misty Mountains that we established some time ago. I had exactly opted to gather all the contributions regarding these matters (for now) in one single space, so that we were easily allowed to brainstorm a bit, before the Edain Team announced the patch that would release the last planned faction; only then may the Moderators allow diverse proposals to spread normally across the boards of the forum. In that wide-ranging discussion, we dealt with a lot of extremely pivotal themes: from gameplay systems to a possible overhaul of Smaug's concept (something I always advocate with passion). As far as the debate developed until now, I have to say that I'm really satisfied with the result. I'm sure your ideas shall enrich it even more.

Now, on the matter, I want to clarify an important aspect you addressed. The timeline of the Misty Mountains will be set during the events of the Hobbit, and not during the War of the Ring. This is a quite clever solution that permitted the developers to feed both from the LOTR trilogy (without major contradictions) and from the recent Hobbit trilogy equally. In particular, the whole LOTR atmosphere will necessarily be centred around the legendary Moria sequence and its eerie elements (the treacherous environment of the mines and the very situational presence of the Balrog via the spellbook); on the other hand, the Hobbit trilogy gives us well vast fields to focus on Gundabad, the heroes that lead the legions of the Orcs and, obviously, the greatest calamity of all: Smaug the Golden. I would consider them as the main guidelines they decided to follow.

Surely, it's not that these decisions avoid all issues entirely. One problem, in fact, was how to resolve the problematical role of Azog and his very presence in the fist place. The Hobbit timeline is thus a kind of mild way via which it's possible to live up to the expectations that the Hobbit films naturally create, without contrasting with the other two timelines (the Battle of Azanulbizar and LOTR). And so it's quite acceptable, in my opinion, why Azog becomes the apparently generic 'Hunter' and Bolg retains his proper characterisation according to the lore. In light of all these points, as I already stated in the thread this topic will soon be merged with, I think the most important themes which ought to be looked into are the overhaul of Smaug (to resemble even more the linkage to the Hobbit trilogy) and possible expanded roles for some heroes (as the Hunter). It's absolutely paramount that the Misty Mountains be one the most Hobbit-based factions of the game, as its properties strongly suggest.

A system akin to the one of the Dwarves or of Arnor might unnecessarily disrupt the current subfaction-system (three realms), since those two factions' mechanics are not meant to deal with timeline issues (at least, not primarily); they are intended to make three different factions coexist in a coherent design (Dwarves) or to allow another faction to be available in the game (Arnor). Those are not the cases of the Goblins. By the way, I really recommend you browse the whole discussion, where I and other people discussed many more topics and phrased our arguments a good deal better than this summary of mine 

[dkbluewizard]

Diewalkure sir,

I agree with what you posted and what has been said. I think I am being misunderstood--and if I misunderstood your post I apologize.

My issue is not with the faction at all. Like you I agree with how the faction should be implemented, I am just concerned with the heroes that are dead by the time of the War of the Ring.

However, I would be will put aside that issue if and only if on the War of the Ring mode, we got new heroes that were alive during the War of the Ring, similar to ET having Erebor be the main faction in War of the Ring mode.

I just want consistency. That doesn't mean that ET's idea for Misty Mountains isn't good, I just want to expand on it. Building it and making it more copacetic. Unfortunately, this is not the case with the heroes that are there now.

I agree that based on everything represented ET has done a darn good job of representing the Hobbit films pertaining to this faction. But what about the lore? We have done that consistently with all other factions why is MM so different?

Hardly any of the heroes for the WOTR are represented, to me that is a shame. It is like we're saying, "Here are the MM and the heroes from the Hobbit. They are not really applicable in WOTR." Even though in the books they chased the Fellowship and went into Rohan with Isengard and Mordor Orcs.

But if you say that ET has decided to only set MM in the Hobbit era, then I guess I need not comment further, but this seems really odd given that they have made adjustments and blendings for every faction. It looks weird and that is the only thing I have to say about it. But if what's done is done, then I guess that is that.

Still would like the new heroes for WOTR mode to be implemented though...

[Walküre]

No, really, there is no need to apologise. We're just discussing and discussions often get better in time, when they progress. I understood your concern very clearly. What I wanted to point out was that, given the premises, the current design satisfies the most the needs of both gameplay and the expectations of the Community regarding the films.

The unique mechanism of the faction in fact serves well for the purpose of tying together three different realms (Moria, Gundabad and Goblin-town). I genuinely believe that the system focuses on the most prominent aspects of each realm and thus finds a balance among all the elements involved. Said that, the prominent properties of the War of the Ring timeline that deserved to be explored were mainly the iconic Moria sequence and the situational Balrog: Moria (with its own recognisable style) will thus be the core of the faction, from which the player will then have the chance to expand and make usage of the other realms, and the Balrog will be implemented via the spellbook as it has always been since BFME1. The eerie touch of Moria has its just representation in the game, endowed with a superb characterisation (the models were exactly crafted and made even darker, in order to stick to the Fellowship of the Ring).

In terms of heroes, though, Moria has little to offer. Thus the choice to follow the Hobbit timeline (to match with Moria as well) and to put under the spotlight the characters that played a significant part in the Hobbit trilogy, alongside embodying thoroughly the spirit of the trilogy itself. Just think about Smaug (or Azog) and the equation is balanced. Smaug is really one of the most precious concepts that PJ and WETA came up with. In the end, as it often happens with many concepts of the Edain Mod, this was objectively the most reasonable compromise; therefore, I don't personally mind doing without certain things, provided that the faction is maintained unique and variegated as it currently is.

I don't really know if your proposal about the War of the Ring mode is really feasible, but the implications you mentioned are indeed legitimate. I hope they will eventually find a way to sort the issue out.

[dkbluewizard]

Dang, thanks Diewalkure for showing the entirety of this. I didn't know Smaug was such a BIG issue. If Smaug is causing this much concern to the ET, community, and the designs, why not just make the Balrog the main playable ringhero? I mean he is more canonical anyways and he is around during the time of the Hobbit. Make him the Ringhero.

If Smaug is going to be the ringhero then he should be able to be recruitable from the start like any other ringhero. I don't understand why Smaug has to be so complex if ET is going to incorporate him into the game. If it is that big of a deal, then I suggest the Balrog for simplicity and cannon. Summon Dragon for final power like vanilla BFME2.

That is my opinion, I wish we would get the Balrog or Smaug one or the other. But if Smaug is going to be the definite ringhero, he should be canonical with two front legs and two back legs. He also should be very big.

[lord_ellessar]

Will the Moria buildings be "decorated" with dwarven cadavers and destroyed shelves/tables or just the building itself ?

[Walküre]

Will the Moria buildings be "decorated" with dwarven cadavers and destroyed shelves/tables or just the building itself ?

I don't really know it. If there weren't any kind of decorations of that sort, I would be totally in favour of what you proposed. The Moria sequence is the major embodiment of the whole eerie, macabre and ghoulish touch of Fellowship of the Ring. It's one of the main themes.

[Slawek56703]

Is there a way to make fire attacks (any kind) heal balrog health ? For example when when Balrog is attacked with Fire arrows Arrows damage him but fire damage heals him . I dont want  Balrog reflect them but have him healed whe he is attacked with fire attacks.
To make it possible Gandalf Lightning Strike proably wouldn't deal Fire damage too


I have another idea consider music when we summon Balrog . When we summon him we not only hear standart sound summon but also Khazad Dum Music this moment themes would fit i think .

Like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUIZvAe3RBg 4:22-4:36
OR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8CUdK3HY0 2:32-2:34,35
OR megred version from both of them

Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool

Some climatic music making whole summon more movie like more atmospheric.

Edit:

I would like to see Passive ability for Balrog : debuff will make units,monsters,heroes faster +15% but all thier damage and armor become worse -25% to both .

[lord_ellessar]

i agree with saruman book palantir

[Walküre]

Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool

I literally love that image, and it always reminds me of that famous quotation of Saruman concerning Moria and its fate. It really contributes, along with the other elements, to create that sense of eeriness I was talking about. Nevertheless, I don't really know if that kind of picture could serve well as a spell icon (due to the size).

As for proper sounds, I don't know if there's a specific track when the Balrog is summoned, but I agree we should hear something a bit more characteristic and LOTR-related. That sequence is simply legendary.

[Slawek56703]

Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool

I literally love that image, and it always reminds me of that famous quotation of Saruman concerning Moria and its fate. It really contributes, along with the other elements, to create that sense of eeriness I was talking about. Nevertheless, I don't really know if that kind of picture could serve well as a spell icon (due to the size).

As for proper sounds, I don't know if there's a specific track when the Balrog is summoned, but I agree we should hear something a bit more characteristic and LOTR-related. That sequence is simply legendary.

There is one place where this picture could be implemented replacing this one

[Slawek56703]

I thought about one of spells in Goblin facton called Drums in the deep and this spell in edain 3.8.1 give additional 20% damage and armor boost and i have idea to make diffrent effect for this spell. What about make this spell more friendly and make all buildings except citadel summon creeps form walking around building and protect him from enemy attacks (temporary) .? I keep in mind there will be 3 diffrent Goblin kingdoms  Orcs of Moria, Gundabad and Goblintown so each get his own unique Goblin creep unit even strong Uruks in Gundabad case. Goblins no longer get units around building by defualt right(?) so as spell it could work i think . This spell proably get into second row in spellbook so it can't be to op so temporary guard for all buildings 4 weaker guys for Orcs of Moria, and Goblintown and 2 Uruks for Gundabad wouldn't be too strong of course it is open to discussion .

[Julio229]

I was just rewatching Fellowship Of The Ring (as a matter of fact, it is paused at Lothlorien now ), and while seeing the Cave Troll scene, I had an idea that I hope helps to spark discussion about MM again:

Cave Trolls only have their melee ability and rock-throwing ability, but... How about if, when Bolg is recruited and the Misty Mountains armies start to become organized, Cave Trolls unlock an option to either have the mace or the trident that we see in FOTR, earning new advantages if they unlock them, at the cost of their rock-throwing ability?

I've not made a deep concept, but I hope it can spark discussion!