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Autor Thema: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions  (Gelesen 79437 mal)

Odysseus

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #15 am: 9. Sep 2016, 04:11 »
The short answer is basically: Way too much effort for too little gain. I'm afraid we are going to have to deal with it. Personally, I don't mind the Moria buildings. They look pretty slick, Moria only had the ruins of Khazad-Dûm anyway, so I am not sure what the point would be of adding other captured buildings or something along those lines.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

denny31x

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #16 am: 9. Sep 2016, 05:13 »
I know misty mountain faction its still in progress
But i curious how ring hero smaug can be recruited without the ring so i got an idea

The suggestion is this
Make a smaug unavailable until u completed a few tasks (like the way necromancer leveling up)
So u need complete few objectives to able recruit smaug

But i still dont know what will smaug got if it got the ring

Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #17 am: 9. Sep 2016, 05:44 »
I sort of like that idea because having a Mass Slaying Dragon costing only 3000 (which is the maximum) is somewhat overpowered IMO. Starting with 4000 resources (Which against AI is key to success), you can get a Dragon and still have 1000 resources while you destroy the enemy forces. It would also fit with Smaug's character, I mean, he is not allied with the Goblins, so they would have to attract him to ally with him, and he is greedy, so it would fit. In 3.8.1, his system reflected his character really well, but made him too expensive to use. I think he should have some requirements, but not a lot, so you would have to wait but he wouldn't be like in 3.8.1.


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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #18 am: 10. Sep 2016, 01:36 »
Personally, I don't mind the Moria buildings. They look pretty slick, Moria only had the ruins of Khazad-Dûm anyway, so I am not sure what the point would be of adding other captured buildings or something along those lines.

I in fact regard that design as almost perfect for the purposes and role that Moria is expected to fulfill in the general faction. I too couldn't really see the point of asking for a change. This is probably one of the most unique pieces of the Edain Mod.

Regarding Smaug, I would say that 3000 resources are well enough for the leader of the faction (being this the maximum cost in the game for such prominent heroes). I assume he won't immediately be able to dispose of his full potential at the very initial stage, so that the player won't have any possibility to maximise its advantage while the dragon-hero is still at low levels. Smaug will nonetheless be an ordinary hero of the faction, meaning that he's unlikely to turn out to be unreasonably powerful (something that may instead be applied to the Balrog, given his situational nature). That said, the idea of Smaug being fully operational only from a certain amount time (or after completing some tasks, or even after buying a specific upgrade) kind of intrigues me: it might be a valuable conceptual feature to differentiate Smaug from all the other heroes of the Edain Mod (as Sauron's iconic 'death mechanism'). What worries me a bit, though, is avoiding complex and unnecessary solutions that would otherwise slow the game down and make everything too much intricate.

Nevertheless, the sort of differentiation which I referred to above could be a solid sound ground to start interesting proposals from. For example, just another hint at the matter, I'm thinking about a possible 'dual essence' of the leadership of the Misty Mountains: that is, leaving the military leadership of the faction in the Defiler's hands (the just occasion to implement his BOTFA commander-like armour?) and stressing, on the other hand, the characterisation of the winged dragon that relates to destruction, might and his own solitary existence (primary status that is already displayed by the fact that he's the Ring hero). This would thus ensure that Smaug be the real ultimate weapon of the Goblins (preserving his independent spirit), without any risk of forcing him to fit in the faction in what would be a quite unnatural role (as the military general of all); in the light of this perspective, acquiring him later in the game would go in the above-mentioned direction even more.

These are just drafted ideas that I came up with. Feel free to comment them or give other insights on alternative concepts  :)

P.S. One of the main reasons of these suggestions of mine is exactly the wish, that I always held in high consideration, to give each leader of the factions a very unique characterisation; something even more innovative than their already much clever abilities and designs. I'm absolutely conscious of the difficulty of such bold goal, but I really believe it's a challenge worth being considered  ;)

Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #19 am: 10. Sep 2016, 01:38 »
I agree with what you have said, having that kind of dual leadership of the faction would reflect the situation in a great manner, and I think it fits that Smaug is treated differently from most 'Leader Heroes' because of his actual situation, like he is not actually a leader of the Goblins, he is his own entity and is in his own 'side', so to speak.

By the way, just a question, would all Misty Mountains Heroes be recruited from the Moria Tunnel, or would we have to get The Defiler from Gundabad, for example?

Edit: I also like that P.S. idea! I too believe that Leader Heroes should have something to make them feel even more unique. I feel this is done in a great way with Sauron and Aragorn, for example, but if even more of their characterization can be reflected in game, that would be perfect.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Sep 2016, 01:42 von Julio229 »


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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #20 am: 10. Sep 2016, 01:47 »
First of all, thank you for having posted again your own considerations; I was browsing the General Suggestions board and that thread, at the top of the others, tricked me a bit. I also appreciate the fact that you share similar views.

By the way, just a question, would all Misty Mountains Heroes be recruited from the Moria Tunnel, or would we have to get The Defiler from Gundabad, for example?

I'm probably not the most appropriate person to answer you (other Beta Testers have already played with the Misty Mountains in the earliest Betas), but, as far as I grasped, each hero will be recruitable in its respective corresponding subfaction.

Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #21 am: 10. Sep 2016, 01:57 »
You're welcome :D I like to voice my opinion, so I wasn't going to just remove it, hahaha. I also like seeing that someone else shares my views on things!


I like the fact that they are recruitable in their own subfactions, it helps the feeling of the three different Misty Mountain realms and their variety a lot, in my opinion. Just having Tom, Bert and Bill suddenly coming out from Moria would be strange :P


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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #22 am: 10. Sep 2016, 02:16 »
You're welcome :D I like to voice my opinion, so I wasn't going to just remove it, hahaha.

It's because I was about to delete it myself and edit my comment via inserting your response. You thus spared me some minutes of moderating activity  :P

By the way, just to use a bit of the Elves' cryptic advices/riddles, if you are willing to debate further aspects that relate to the leaders issue and then sail to proper harbours for such proposals, I will give you a little hint: look at my forum signature VERY carefully  xD

Goodnight  ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Sep 2016, 03:18 von DieWalküre »

Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #23 am: 10. Sep 2016, 02:45 »
I'll do it, goodnight!  :P


TheDarkOne

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #24 am: 10. Sep 2016, 13:02 »
 I dont think that Smaug shoud be recruitable since the beginning. He has nothing to do with MM and orcs. Still, the idea of him being the ring hero is nice. As some of MM units found the One Ring they will bring it somewhere and within some time the dragon will fly over there sensing something gold and precious. He will not fight for MM, he has no actual reason to do so if they cannot give him something. But as they give him the ring they can make a temporal deal.

 Building a treassury and bringing a ring there is a cool idea, knowing of Smaug's passion (or whatever you want to call it) for gold and jewels. And having a great dragon on a battlefield means a certain victory. Again, if there is no random poor archer recruited "for free" who can kill Smaug.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #25 am: 10. Sep 2016, 13:08 »
We could use a similar system to Imladris, where we have say The Defiler pick up the Ring and spawn Smaug from it. Another idea might be to make the Ring Hero the Balrog and make Smaug an ultimate power, this would make a bit more sense IMO, because the Balrog at least is in the same area as Moria, whereas Smaug is half a world away and never directly associates with the gobbos.
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Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #26 am: 10. Sep 2016, 13:18 »
I think Smaug should be part of the main Heroes of the faction, though with requirements to get to him that reflect his greedy character and that he is not part of the Goblin Army at all. He fits being the Ring Hero, but I don't feel like he should be only recruitable by achieving it.


Fredius

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #27 am: 10. Sep 2016, 13:58 »
[...]each hero will be recruitable in its respective corresponding subfaction.

No, all heroes are recruitable in the citadels of the three Goblin factions. However Tom, Bert and Bill are only recruitable from the cavetroll lair which the player can build on the settlement plots.

I personally love the idea of Smaug having a few conditions before he can be built, so I agree with Julio about this. Smaug never would never fight for someone else, unless it benefits him, so I think the player should really make sacrifices in the form of offering units, money, etc., and building certain buildings, to please Smaug, and ultimately enable him for recruitment.

Furthermore, I just hope the Gundabad Orcs can get this armor as their Heavy Armor upgrade, together with the corresponding weapons:


Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #28 am: 10. Sep 2016, 14:18 »
I love that armor concept!

Personally, I envision Misty Mountains as a faction based in uniting an army under one banner instead of them always being under that banner. I mean, I like the idea of uniting a great army (like The Defiler had) with so many variety of troops, unifying the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, how all of the evil of the north was united marching against the forces of good under one banner... I think Smaug having requirements further helps that feeling, as you will just not be recruiting it, but having to lure him with requirements to make him help you, as you have to do with Goblintown and Gundabad, making tunnels for them instead of being readily available. I don't know, Misty Mountains always gave me that "Have to unite the Misty Mountains' Orcs to win" feeling.


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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #29 am: 10. Sep 2016, 16:06 »
No, all heroes are recruitable in the citadels of the three Goblin factions. However Tom, Bert and Bill are only recruitable from the cavetroll lair which the player can build on the settlement plots.

Thank you for the clarification  :)

We could use a similar system to Imladris, where we have say The Defiler pick up the Ring and spawn Smaug from it. Another idea might be to make the Ring Hero the Balrog and make Smaug an ultimate power, this would make a bit more sense IMO, because the Balrog at least is in the same area as Moria, whereas Smaug is half a world away and never directly associates with the gobbos.

The Balrog had better remain a spellbook feature, in my opinion; that's the perfect implementation in the game as it suits his very situational nature (situational as his appearance in LOTR) and prevents his whole potential from being unjustly underpowered, should he be made an ordinary hero or a nonetheless stable Ring hero (it would really be a pity seeing him underperform even slightly, compared to his usual standards). Also, the implementation via the spellbook has always been enough effective and iconic since the very first BFME1.

I wouldn't really see the Imladris system fitting for this context either: the fact is that I don't really mind Smaug being an ordinary hero of the faction, because his presence ties together the whole Hobbit atmosphere underlying everything and he's objectively the most awaited character by the Edain Community. What I believe should be the right path to stick to is exactly trying to come up with some restrictions or different mechanics, enabling him to act normally in the Misty Mountains environment while being quite detached from the Goblins' structured design and military leadership. He would thus truly be an unpredictable destructive weapon.