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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 28. Jun 2017, 23:16 ---In this case, if you are content of the result, I will bear this WETA concept and the suggestion about the trident in mind. Additional topics that enrich the wide collection of this thread. Needless to say, once we're ready to loosen the boundaries of our imaginative spirit for discussions on the Misty Mountains, I will create a list of any element of valuable note that was brought here to the general attention. In the meantime, we shall wait a bit still ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

I made researches but no design satisfy me for now :(. You are right DieWalkure sadly it is totally different with respect to my primal idea i wrote, but at least the caber buddy matches  in a good way the requirment you stated about Goblins (repugnance,horridness). if i was at least good in drawing i would create something, but sadly i'm not (i don't now how many years have passed since the last sketch i made  :D :D). If in the future i will come across something better and more traditional i will post here as an update. The Caber troll is good, of course consider it without its  trunk  :D :D

Among your many skills the ability to create list is for sure included. There are so many argument in only one thread, so a reader may be lost  ;). IN fact i have just noted that this thread has a number of comment one-two order of magnitude more than the other in [Edain] Discussion and Feedback  :D

NoldorSithLordsShipwright:
I think now's as good a time as any to present my proposal regarding Smaug's recruitment and his tribute system.

Of Dragons and Gold

There’s been plenty discussion regarding Smaug’s recruitment costs and balance, and how best to reflect both his unfathomable greed and cataclysmic power. I would like to present my own proposal in this discussion regarding Smaug. There are three parts to the proposal, but the third is the significant portion of this proposal, the first two probably already being the direction the Edain Team wants to head in.

I. Keep Smaug’s cost at 3,000

As some of you may already be aware, the AI does not really recruit anything worth more than 3000 gold. This cost, however, is understood by many to understate Smaug’s true value and many, including me, rightly fear that Smaug’s power would not be properly represented. To this end, I propose my next two steps.

II. Move Smaug to the Dragon Lair Outpost

Placed at a highly fought for position on the map, Smaug would effectively be more difficult to get, allowing him more power.

This also has some non-game justification – it doesn’t quite make sense to recruit a dragon from the depths of the goblin tunnels. Like how Tom, Bert, and Bill are tied to the Troll Cave on settlements, it makes sense to put Smaug with the rest of the dragon brood.

Side Note: due to the power of dragons as mass slayers, which would be much greater under the tribute effects (which I shall describe below), and due to the fact that dragons are pretty rare to begin with, I recommend that dragons be limited heroic units.
In addition to that, and to better reflect the greed of Smaug, as well as the greed present in all dragons, here is the third part of my proposal.

III. The Dragon Hoard and the Dragon Tribute System

As reported, the old tribute system, designed merely to keep the great dragon in play, proved prohibitively expensive and Smaug ended up underused.

The Tribute System I propose is meant to enhance Smaug and all the dragons you will recruit from your lair, but will not carry the risk of the dragons walking away from you if you fail to pay up, and will allow for weaker base values.

The Dragon Lair, in addition to being the place for recruiting your lovely and devastating fire breathers, can be upgraded to a Dragon Hoard and will then be equipped with tribute abilities of varying strengths, but for the sake of balance will also have a corresponding drain on your economy. The Hoard upgrade must be necessary to recruit Smaug (as it was Erebor’s obscene treasury that brought down the Calamity upon them.)

Gather Hoard: Cost: 3000. Upgrades the Dragon Lair to a Dragon Hoard, creating piles of gold around the structure. Allows use of Tribute Abilities. Leaves 2000 gold when destroyed.

Tribute Abilities

•Minor Tribute: A small portion of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Amused with our offering, the dragons offer slightly more of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain boosted by 25% for 15 seconds. Allied resource buildings lose -15% production for 15 seconds.
o   Activation Cost: 375
o   Cooldown: 30 seconds
•   Moderate Tribute: A moderate portion of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Pleased with our offering, the dragons offer moderately more of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain boosted by 50% and have their costs reduced by 10% for 30 seconds. Allied resource buildings lose -30% production for 30 seconds. Scavenger effects yield -10% less income.
o   Activation Cost: 750
o   Cooldown: 2 minutes
•   Major Tribute: A substantial portion of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Well-pleased with our offering, the dragons offer much more of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain and attack damage boosted by 100% and have their recruitment costs and recruitment time reduced by -25% for 60 seconds. Allied resource buildings lose -50% production and Scavenger effects yield -30% less income for 60 seconds.
o   Activation Cost: 1,500
o   Cooldown: 8 minutes
•   Magnificent Tribute: All of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Driven by our offering, the dragons offer all of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain, attack damage, and ability recharge speed boosted by 200% and their recruitment costs and recruitment time reduced by -50% for 2 minutes. Allied resource buildings lose -100% production and Scavenger effects yield -90% less income for 2 minutes.
o   Activation Cost: 3,000
o   Cooldown: 32 minutes

I hope this reflects both their indolence and the lengths they will go to for gold. Without much incentive (i.e. a share of your income) they have little reason to care for your cause, but once their greed (or their wrath) is invoked, they are more terrifying than hurricanes.

To balance all the experience gains, I think the experience gain of dragons should be low to begin with, especially for Smaug. An increase in experience can be described as an increase in their willingness to help our cause.

You’ll notice that not insignificant parts of your income are taken away by choosing to pay tribute, forcing the player to choose between increasing the strength of the dragons and filling out your army with more orcs. The activation costs are meant to represent the first tribute over the tribute time; you could think of it as the down payment. The cooldowns are to prevent spamming of the tributes, and represent your economy recovering from the strain of appealing to dragon greed.

Note that none of these tributes increase armor or health. Your dragons take just as much damage under Magnificent Tribute as under No Tribute. If you lose your dragons under a Magnificent Tribute, you will have no income outside of Scavenger abilities which are heavily reduced under the Tribute until the 5 minutes are up. If you still have gold left on you after paying the 3000, you may be interested in replacing your fallen dragons.

Note also that cooldowns take effect only after the tribute effect has expired, meant to simulate your economy recovering from the demanding tribute of the dragons.

It’s very possible that my suggestions may be excessive. If you find it so, I wouldn’t mind hearing suggestions on what could be improved.

Walküre:
I retract my previous statement. Don't worry about lists or other things. My moderating powers will suffice. As Ilúvatar shall break Arda apart and retrieve the lost Jewels, I shall break this massive thread and split it into multiple ones, according to each suggestion :)

Only in the proper time.

AulëTheSmith:
Dear Noldor :)
Imo the Dragon Lair it is the right place for Smaug :) I agree with this.
Regarding your system I'm sure you study it very well, but I'm not in favor of this: I sincerely prefer to have permanent improvements,not to spend resources to temporary have more strengthen dragons. I think we have to concentrate our effort on how to properly recruit Smaug and his brotherhood, not on a temporary strengthen when they are just on the battlefield.
The cost of 3000 is right I agree with that. But to unlock this recruitment I'd develop certain requirement, first of all the dragon lair must reach level 3. Secondly I will also link him with other upgrades as a necessary constrains to unlock him, but for now I have not a clear idea.
Regarding his leveling up system when is just recruited, maybe could be very fitting to connect him with some tasks like Sauron, instead of the classic battle gained experience :) of course these task could be something related to resources.

NoldorSithLordsShipwright:
Hey Aulë, thank you for your input.

I considered making permanent upgrades, but I worried that with them being dragons and all, it would be too OP.

You bring up an interesting thing about the tasks, and I think the best way to differentiate this one from Sauron would be to tie it to their greed as opposed to tying Sauron to Mordor's power.

I think I can work my tribute system into this with purchasing each tribute necessary to get Smaug's level up while giving perhaps permanent boosts to the dragons as opposed to temporary ones.

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