Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

[dkbluewizard]

Isildur Fluch this is very lore friendly and I love it! The giant you refer to was actually the White Mountains and his name was Tarlang. Yes, I am interested in everything you said and I too agree with other trolls being the bases for the army instead of giants. The giants (whether you believe them to exist in Tolkien's work or not) are just as independent as dragons. They would need some type of trade system as well if going by lore.

Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains. It made more sense given that he was a general in Morgoth's armies (all 7 Balrog chiefs were), Dain II Ironfoot peaked into Moria and saw the Balrog there reinforcing the Goblins and he knew the Dwarfs couldn't penetrate into the mines (which makes you wonder why he let Balin do what he did), Durin's Bane has also been around since the dawn of time.

But Edain merely said that they don't want him outside of a summon. So we are left with this convoluted system of trying to incorporate Smaug. I even suggested that maybe for lore sakes that there be two timelines for the Misty Mountains, and all that would change is the heroes list. Heroes during the Hobbit and heroes during WOTR. If just going with the Hobbit timeline, you still could use the Balrog.

So Isildur I totally agree with you, as I feel this is the best and most lore friendly idea regarding the MM that we got. However, I would like to remind you, that Snow Trolls are mentioned about as much as the Hobbit's giants. There is really no record of them fighting in battles, but they clearly did since it is referenced here:

"During the Long Winter of T.A. 2758 and 2759 lied upon the fields of Rohan, Helm Hammerhand clad himself in white and stalked the camps of the Dunlendings "like a snow-troll", and killed many with (seemingly) his bare hands. It remained a legend in Dunland, striking fear and hatred into any who heard it."

I do feel that Snow Trolls and other trolls or ogres have about as much chance with the MM as the Giants, but I would be more for them for the lore reasons that you stated. Excellent ideas!

[Isildurs Fluch]

Concerning Durins Bane:
You are right, he definitly could be a recruitable hero for the MM aswell, even more so than Smaug. I guess the problem is, that he would be either to weak compared to his power or to expensive. It´s a very similar problem as with Smaug, with the difference that he has no affection for gold as the dragon so a system as I suggested wouldn´t make much sense.
What I could imagine is him being the MM-ringhero instead of or as an alternative to Smaug. I could imagine giving the pioneers (if they are still a thing) the opportunity to pick up the ring and bring it to the maintunnel in your base to get Durins Bane. That would be a permanent Balrog with some unique mechaniques.
I guess another problem was, that the Balrog has so few animation and would look weird if he stays a longer time. So a concept to integrate him must be very convince the team to bring this extra-effort to programm some additional animations for him...

Concerning Trolls:
Yes you are right, the different Troll-races are highly speculative, because they are not discribed very good in the lore. But one thing is clear: In contrast to the Mountain Giants they are definitly creatures of Morgoth.
This uncertainty of the Troll-races is also a huge chance, because it allows for creative ideas about concepts and background-storys as a foundation for the different specialisations of the Troll-races:

• Cave-Troll: cheap-allrounder with moderate abilities for siege and mass-slaying; is able to switch between close combat and range damage; only Trollunit you can get without an outpost
• Stone-Troll: Long range siege, which is very robust against arrows, but also very slow; Fullfills the role of the former Mountains Giants and uses their animations.
  
  He should have a much darker skin, than the normal cave Trolls looking a lot more like being made out of stone...
  Another possible design-model could be the

  
• Hill-Troll: Huge area-damage and fast movement; very vulnerable against spears and arrows; the weapon should be the classical ripped out tree ore a very archic club instead of the hammer the unit got in the Angmar-faction.
  Additional to this I would like to see a reskin of the Hill-Troll, because the I never liked the green skin colour which looked more like WarCraft, than like Middle-Earth. I´d like to sugggest a design from BotFA, apart from a lot of bad designs we were shown a few were pretty good in my oppinion. This pale one with no armour at all fits my imagination well:
  
  
• Snow-Troll: High single-target-damage against buildings and single units as heroes; the damage is as high as the ram-damage, but the unit is much more vulnerable against arrows; still uses the ice pick

So every Troll-unit has it´s one purpose and the MM have taking in acount the tunnel-diggers in total 4 different siege units (5 with the dragons), so MM catches up with the other evil factions...
If people like my ideas, I will post them in a seperate thread as an general outpost-concept together with my dragon-idea. I also made a huge Smaug concept two years ago, which will be part of the concept aswell, but you have to wait a week, because I first need to invest my time in learning for a very big exam.

Another thing I wanted to talk about is the building design for Gundabad. They shall get the former building-design of the orc-faction, which I always disliked a lot, because it looked more like coming from a fairy-tale than from middle-earth. A much more sinister design would fit a lot better for Azogs home taking some inspiration from the short look on Gundabad we got in the BotFA:

The "Age of the Ring Mod" made a good start, as presented here in a video of Ruuddevil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJFHDHJhO0

Another question are the designs of Smaug and Bolg:
For Bolg I´m pretty unsure which design I like the most, but for Smaug the BOTTA-mod did it very well taking the Wyvern-Design:

You can see him in action in this video at 4:42:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtXUsi7u3t4

I don´t really understand the complains about that design not being a dragon. In GoT Daenerys dragons share the same style with the frontlegs as wings and nobody calls the wyverns.
In my oppinion it is the much more realistic design, because no vertebrat in the world has 6 limbs. A dragon with those additional back-wings wouldn´t be able to flight at all, because he can´t use his pectoral muscles.[/list]

[Walküre]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, I recall that the Edain Team has already expressed itself against the visual rendition of Gundabad from BOTFA. I think it was a statement of Gnomi, if I'm not wrong. That was a comment of some time ago, however, and I believe one could say that premises may have changed now, after the new changes we faced.

Besides, I myself am quite torn inside between the two choices: the concept of the Hobbit is not one of the best ones crafted by WETA's vision, but I don't really like the idea of having remnants of the vanilla in the game either, considering how loose and chaotic the Goblins were at that time. Should I have to choose, I would personally side with the cinematographic rendition, for the films have a prime status in the Edain Mod.

[Melkor Bauglir]

If my memory serves me right, Tolkien himself made some "sketches" for the dragons. And those are the traditional dragons, not the wyvern-likes. I don't care what they'll do in the end, but this was the line of arguing. The team's opinion might have changed though, since it was Ealendril who brought this up.

I would personally side with the cinematographic rendition

Which one? The LotR-cinematography or the Warhammer-Hobbit-cinematography? (Now it's obviously false to say the Hobbit uses this style exclusively, but the overdesign, overarmoring and overscaling of things is quite apparent. That's actually the thing: Watching some Total War: Warhammer LPs, I realized that the Hobbit movies partially but especially some more creative units from the Vanilla are heavily inspired by that fantasy setting. Stupid idea for the movie, great one for the game...)

And please don't bury my point under a general design-discussion about the Hobbit! It was merely to point out, that LotR and Hobbit use different cinematography / design concepts!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Fredius]

Hmm I am a bit divided on the ideas here. First of all, I agree with you guys that Mountain Giants don't fit into the Misty Mountains, because their allegiance with Sauron is not clear, so I definetly also agree that their role should be replaced by other Troll races. However, there are some things that should be taken into account with the roles and designs you proposed. I believe four types of Trolls is a bit too much, and I would reduce it to three, with the following attributes and designs:

• Cave-Trolls: They currently are have a very versatile role, with the ability to throw rocks and goblins, and pick up trees as weapons. This is something I'd like to keep, because they make the unit very unique and likeable. They don't deal much damage and are pretty easy to kill as far as I remember, but they are pretty cheap compared to other monster units. These Trolls can be recruited from the Moria Base. Design: same as the current in-game ones.
• Hill-Trolls: These guys should be the real damage dealers, and should also be pretty expensive. They already carry clubs from the moment that they are recruited, and can also purchase Heavy Armor when they the upgrade is researched.
  These Trolls can be recruited from the Gundabad Base. Design:
  
  
  
• Ogres: The Hill-Troll design from the movies Isildurs Fluch proposed aren't supposed to be Trolls, but rather Ogres. These units should be support "monster" units, in the sense that they might either debuff enemy units, or buff allied units. I can't think of any abilities at the moment, but I will think of them if you like this idea. These beauties can be recruited from the Goblin-Town Base. Design:
  
  

This way all three Misty Mountains factions get their own kind of monster unit, each having their own roles and purposes. It makes them even more unique from each other .

So why no Stone-Trolls or Snow-Trolls? Well, Stone-Trolls are actually already in the mod, in the form of Bert, Tom and Bill. The Stone-Trolls being represented as Heroes is good enough to me, and design wise they don't differ all too much from the Cave-Trolls. With all roles fullfilled, I don't see a reason for Snow-Trolls to be in the game. I personally don't like their design from RotWK (with the picks and small shields) as well. I'm not against them though; I actually don't mind them replacing the Mountain Giant's Outpost, and if they do, they should be as massive and tanky as the Mountain Giants are. They could be like the ones from the Shadow and Flame mod:

Concerning Gundabad, what I would like is that the base starts out as it is now (using the vanilla Goblin buildings). This because we can see that Azog and his Orcs in the Moria Battle from the first Hobbit movie look pretty primitive and tribal. The vanilla designs fit this image perfectly. However, we could give the Gundabad faction the option to upgrade it's fortress, so that it's main design becomes the same as how the Gundabad fortress looked like in the third movie. This goes perfectly together with the heavy armor concept for the Gundabad units and Trolls, where the Trolls get the Heavy Armor like I proposed here, and the Gundabad Orcs get this look:

Pfew it seems I returned to the forums with a bang . In any case, what do you guys think of this whole concept?

[dkbluewizard]

Let me be clear, I agree with Isildur as it is more lore accurate. Though I would like the Balrog better (and Dagor Dagorath shows us that this is quite easy to do with Gothmog and other balrogs), I am not diametrically opposed to Smaug. I mean he would be cool even if his background really gives him no bases to be with the MM faction. Based on the reasoning presented by Isildur and the lore, I am content with Isildur's proposal if they are going to implement Smaug. However, I don't want him to look like a wyvern. I am against this, and personally he looks more like a Fellbeast to me.

So if Smaug is going to be put in. Do it right. Be as lore consistent as possible, and if the following cannot be implemented then I say go with the Balrog, since he was a bigger threat to the Dwarfs than Smaug anyways. That's my opinion anyways.

[Isildurs Fluch]

First of all, I pretty much despise the idea of implementing Ogres into the mod. The only mention of Ogres is, when Bilbo remembers fairy-tales during the riddling with Gollum.
So this creature is pretty much made up by the movies, because they wanted to implement as much stuff as they could instead of focussing on the lore, what I would have prefered.
As I view it, Ogres are just another name for Trolls or a special Troll-race. In my interpretation they are similar to Hill-Trolls...

About the Stone-Trolls: I found PJs interpretation of Bill, Tom and Bert a bit boring, because as you said they seemed like just a bit more intelligent Cave-Trolls. For that reason I don´t find it that big a problem to just give them a different design as Bill, Tom and Bert.
It is not a fact, but more a suggestion, that Bill, Tom and Bert are Stone-Trolls. That´s all what tolkien-gateway has about them:

Stone-trolls were a race of trolls in the service of Sauron. Not much is known of these creatures, except that they inhabited the Westlands of Middle-earth and that they spoke a "debased form of the Common Speech". It is possible that they were not actually living beings, but mere counterfeits made by Melkor, and they would return to their stone images once exposed to the light of the Sun.
Bert, Tom, and Bill — the trolls encountered by Bilbo Baggins and his companions on their journey to Erebor — were likely of this kind, as they spoke Westron.

The reason I implemented them was to replace Mountain Giants as a robust long-rage siege-unit, which is totally missing in your suggestion, but in my oppinion the most important one of the three.
The thing is, that the Troll-camp is supposed to be an alternative for the Dragon-lair, so it needs to give you a somewhat equal benefit. So I think 3 different Troll-versions plus a hero (BIll, Tom and Bert) is fine.
Cave-Trolls should be the only Troll-unit accessable without an outpost.

The Snow-Trolls are the least important part of the suggestion and I´m not a huge fan of their EA-design either, but find it still a lot better, than the WarCraft-Hill-Trolls... 
I just found it a nice opportunity to implement those and give them a usefull role, but if more people don´t like them this part can be removed or they could take the role of the Stone-Trolls with a different design.
The biggest problem of this discussion is, that everybody has different imaginations of the different Trolls, because the lore is so unclear about them. But as I said, this is also a huge chance...

Concerning Gundabad: When I remember it right, the team didn´t say they don´t like the style of Gundabad, but find it difficult to base a design on this short look we got from the movie. As I have shown there are other mods who made it possible and it looks a lot better than the EA-design, which is the worst in my oppinion. Espacially this dragondesign treasure-store looks very childish and unfitting for Gundabad...

PS: I didn´t like many Warhammer- or WarCraft-style in the Hobbit-movies aswell (especially the Trolls with blade-arms and all that stuff), but there are also a lot of cool designs so I think one must look at every design with no prejudice.

PPS: It is very difficult to base Smaug on the lore, because there is almost none information how he looked like and how many legs he had...
I find the four limb interpretation a lot more realistic, than the six limb-one, but am not stubborn about it aswell. If the majority of the community or the team likes another interpretation more, I´m fine with it, as long as Smaug get´s the place he deserves being a huge monster with enormous power. The only thing which is made clear about him is, that he was very big, stretching from one wall to the other and he is more compared to a force of nature, than to anything else, that means he has to be very powerfull aswell... 

[Walküre]

Hello Melkor! I kind of missed our frank and earnest discussions about pretty much anything, which often end up with being very proper occasions to agree disagree with one another

Which one?

Since I was referring to Gundabad, I was obviously talking about the controversial Hobbit trilogy. And I share a same opinion, at an extent, in regards of some visual choices that were evidently questionable; that's why the fortress could certainly have been conceived much better than it has been in the actual film. Nevertheless, I will reiterate my point: anything but the vanilla design, which honestly looks very much generic and reminds me of the time in which Goblins didn't have very much to boast in terms of uniqueness. And given that you also mentioned LOTR, I think that having an additional concept from BOTFA would fare well with the prominent design related to Moria, on which the main sub-faction is exactly fashioned. Let me in fact say how much I appreciate those concepts, which truly embody the iconic ruin/tomb theme of the trilogy (because those mines are really a very sad grave, alongside hiding lethal menaces in the darkness). So, the possible conjunction of these two aspects (the differing interpretations of both trilogies) might indeed work in favour of more diversity in the very faction. And this is obviously a very favourable of a scope.

And, no, don't worry. We won't bury you under fierce criticism connected to graphics; a field whose perceptions depend heavily on each person's tastes. Just, as Isildur has rightly written, even if there are flaws in our way, we ought to set out with a very constructive will to examine things and find solutions, without many prejudices about the matter. Prejudices that once were quite widespread in the past, if we are to take the Hobbit into account.

As for Smaug, the issue seems to have been fairly settled in the previous passages of this large discussion: yes, Tolkien did offer us a concrete representation of his idea of the dragon, which is the one entailing a canonical (based on medieval standards) four-leg dragon. WETA had nonetheless thought about a concept of that kind, at the beginning of the development process, that perfectly mashes the two visions together. And I can't see any defect in that either, satisfying this solution both sides of this debate.

[SilverElf]

Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains.

Because of lore you think the balrog should be a hero for the MM? Yes the balrogs were generals of morgoth, But the goblins were as afraid of the balrog if not more afraid of the blarog then the followship of the ring. They would feel in terror when the balrogs appears. There is no way that he would fight for the goblins what so ever so he wouldn't be a hero and itsn't lore friendly at all

Now i have a suggestion on my own, Because of that the goblins of moria are afraid of the balrog it would be intrestted to see that the balrog has a fear affect for both enemies and allies. That would be lore friendly for as i said the goblins are afraid of the balrog

[Isildurs Fluch]

Being afraid of their generals is pretty much a constant for all evil factions, in fact their soldiers are morivated by fearing their generals more, than the enemy. This is made very clear in the books, just look at how the Orcs view the Nazgûl. So that argument doesn´t really work...

In fact we don´t really now, what the Orcs and the Balrog did in Moria and why the Orcs stayed next to the Balrog, while they also could abbandon the regions where he "rules".
I could imagine them viewing Durins Bane as some kind of a god in the "Greek style", that means fearing and honoring him to the same amount.

From the Balrogs point of view it´s more difficult. Was he planing to do something? Would he have allied with Sauron if Gandalf had not destroyed him? Never forget that he is a Maia and not a stupid creature or beast...

[dkbluewizard]

Funny I would think Elf in Silver Armor who uses Glorfindel as an avatar to know more about Balrogs and their feats. 

Anyhow, as Isildur said, evil is ruled by fear. You could easily just use that argument for Smaug as the Balrog, one major difference is that the Balrog lived among all the Orcs for hundreds of years. Smaug had no orcs and the Goblins didn't go at Erebor until Smaug was already dead. So I don't see the basis for your argument especially since I am ok with Smaug, even if it is not lore accurate--but I would like to see Smaug implemented in the right way and I feel Isildur has done that.

[Walküre]

I don't have a clear portrait of the relationship between Goblins and the Balrog in the lore, and some holes in the information provided were probably left to augment that sensation of obscurity which Tolkien fancies a lot (ever-present in tales of this kind). However, if we are to indulge in possible speculations, I would view things as PJ kind of wanted us to consider the Balrog and the environment he lives in. The cinematographic interpretation draws a quite clear depiction of the high hazard surrounding the Balrog, so that Orcs are too bound to flee for their lives in order to avoid such a deadly event. I would also follow in the footsteps of Gandalf's words, when he says that fouler things dwell in the deep places of Arda; a reference to Nameless Things that equally inhabit the forbidden spaces of the mines. Places which no Elf, Dwarf or Man could ever reach, just like that massive underground lake in which Gandalf and the demon fall. And even if Nameless Things are naturally different from the Flames of Morgoth, I can see a common quality that underlies them all. There is a sort of cruel neutrality or ancestral evil that characterises them, which doesn't take into consideration whether their victim is a servant of the Good or of Sauron; an akin case when Shelob devours Orcs with no mercy (a small-scale version of the blind fury and hunger of Ungoliant, who even tries to murder the source of all Evil in the world). Said that, and obviously remembering that Balrogs had pledged support for Melkor and that used to lead armies of countless legions, do you think that a millennia-old evil Maia would not be keen on acting completely unchained and loose, just like the monsters creeping in the water or Ungoliant jeopardising the very life of Melkor.

The awakening of such a dreadful creature is something totally out-of-the-ordinary for the schemes of Middle-earth and Sauron too. A deity of an ancient (lost and forgotten) era that is awakened in rage. A sudden and unexpected factor that no one may control nor expect; a peril which even forces Gandalf to abandon the imperative task to destroy the One Ring (Sauron), because the Balrog should never have trodden the ways of the grey and disenchanted Third Age. This is the vibe I get from the film. A general peril that in some ways endangers all and might disrupt everyone's plans (even the Evil's?). This is why the situational motive is absolutely paramount in the Moria sequence, and this can always be reflected by the very spell. A spell which portrays the Balrog for what he is, without binding him with defined limits. Because a Balrog awakening in the Third Age would probably be not so much interested in conquering, leading and establishing a domain, instead of Sauron that has always sought for the title of master of all Middle-earth. The difference is quite apparent: an atavistic force that doesn't respond to usual schemes, and an established enemy who plans his moves carefully with the utmost cunning will.

Game-wise, the spell fits perfectly with that situational essence of the cinematographic adaptation, and there is no need to balance the Balrog or to do away with some of his features; something that would probably happen, were he to be made available permanently, as a stable hero. The spells allows us to have him unchained and loose as he ought to be, even for limited time.

[Julio229]

I agree with Walk on the Balrog issue, a spell helps reflecting the Balrog's true nature more than having him as a permanent hero would.

I also think Smaug should be in the faction, but using a special system like the ones that have been discussed (completion of tasks, giving him tribute...) to help avoid characterizing him as a simple part of the Misty Mountains, and making him what he truly is: a weapon of mass destruction that is not bound to serve anyone, and will only help the armies of the Misty Mountains if there is something in it for him.

To put it in another way, just like greed brought him to Erebor, greed will bring him to help the armies of the Misty Mountains to succeed.

[dkbluewizard]

Diewalkure, everything you just stated, could be applied to Smaug, X10, we have already said that Smaug is the ringhero so, the bases is on Isildur's ideas which I totally agree. But if anyone tries to say that Smaug is a better faction and more canonical leader/ringhero for the MM, I would strongly disagree as the Balrog dwelt with Orcs for hundreds of years and if he was as much a danger to them as the fellowship, then they would have been wiped out like the Dwarfs and Durin, pure and simple.

Kind of hard to say the Balrog didn't rule Moria, when the Orcs retreat into Moria after the Battle of Azanulbizar, why didn't the Balrog clean house when they retreated inside and Dain had a peek of the Balrog? Sorry but I don't see the Balrog just being a chaotic beast unleashed.

As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."

As stated though, Smaug is what ET chose, so based on the lore and the way things must be presented, I like Isildur's ideas the best.

[Isildurs Fluch]

As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."

I totally agree with you. Of course the Balrog didn´t rule the Orcs as a Orc-king would. I guess for him the Orcs are more of a usefull tool than anything. Alarming him when anyone dares to enter his realm, like the Fellowship did and helping him to take out his enemys for example the Dwarves.

I interpret the scene in Moria in the following way: As much as Gandalf was sensing the Balrog, the Balrog noticed him as a hostile powerfull Maia and possibly the One ring. That was the reason he appeared and didn´t let the Orcs do the dirty work for him, as with Balins company. He wanted to destroy Gandalf and maybe also take the ring.
For this possible interpretation I´d love to see him as a ring-hero, because he seems to me like the most likely candidate. The ring would than allow him to stay permanent on the Battlefield and his name is changed to Durins Bane.
Integrate him as a normal recruitable hero would be impossible, because he would either be to weak or to expensive.
I´m not sure yet how he could be different to the spell-book Balrog, because just staying permanent seems a bit to boring for me, he should at least get a passive ability or something.

Smaug could be an alternative ring-hero, whith a mechanique were you can put the ring into his dragon-lair. I wnts made a concept about this, but need to update it, because of the changed ring-mechanique. I will do it in one week after my exam... 

Is it possible to split this thread in different threads? At the moment we are discussing to many topics at the same time and it gets  kind of chaotic