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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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dkbluewizard:
Isildur Fluch this is very lore friendly and I love it! The giant you refer to was actually the White Mountains and his name was Tarlang. Yes, I am interested in everything you said and I too agree with other trolls being the bases for the army instead of giants. The giants (whether you believe them to exist in Tolkien's work or not) are just as independent as dragons. They would need some type of trade system as well if going by lore.

Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains. It made more sense given that he was a general in Morgoth's armies (all 7 Balrog chiefs were), Dain II Ironfoot peaked into Moria and saw the Balrog there reinforcing the Goblins and he knew the Dwarfs couldn't penetrate into the mines (which makes you wonder why he let Balin do what he did), Durin's Bane has also been around since the dawn of time.

But Edain merely said that they don't want him outside of a summon. So we are left with this convoluted system of trying to incorporate Smaug. I even suggested that maybe for lore sakes that there be two timelines for the Misty Mountains, and all that would change is the heroes list. Heroes during the Hobbit and heroes during WOTR. If just going with the Hobbit timeline, you still could use the Balrog.

So Isildur I totally agree with you, as I feel this is the best and most lore friendly idea regarding the MM that we got. However, I would like to remind you, that Snow Trolls are mentioned about as much as the Hobbit's giants. There is really no record of them fighting in battles, but they clearly did since it is referenced here:

"During the Long Winter of T.A. 2758 and 2759 lied upon the fields of Rohan, Helm Hammerhand clad himself in white and stalked the camps of the Dunlendings "like a snow-troll", and killed many with (seemingly) his bare hands. It remained a legend in Dunland, striking fear and hatred into any who heard it."

I do feel that Snow Trolls and other trolls or ogres have about as much chance with the MM as the Giants, but I would be more for them for the lore reasons that you stated. Excellent ideas!

Isildurs Fluch:
Concerning Durins Bane:
You are right, he definitly could be a recruitable hero for the MM aswell, even more so than Smaug. I guess the problem is, that he would be either to weak compared to his power or to expensive. It´s a very similar problem as with Smaug, with the difference that he has no affection for gold as the dragon so a system as I suggested wouldn´t make much sense.
What I could imagine is him being the MM-ringhero instead of or as an alternative to Smaug. I could imagine giving the pioneers (if they are still a thing) the opportunity to pick up the ring and bring it to the maintunnel in your base to get Durins Bane. That would be a permanent Balrog with some unique mechaniques.
I guess another problem was, that the Balrog has so few animation and would look weird if he stays a longer time. So a concept to integrate him must be very convince the team to bring this extra-effort to programm some additional animations for him...

Concerning Trolls:
Yes you are right, the different Troll-races are highly speculative, because they are not discribed very good in the lore. But one thing is clear: In contrast to the Mountain Giants they are definitly creatures of Morgoth.
This uncertainty of the Troll-races is also a huge chance, because it allows for creative ideas about concepts and background-storys as a foundation for the different specialisations of the Troll-races:

* Cave-Troll: cheap-allrounder with moderate abilities for siege and mass-slaying; is able to switch between close combat and range damage; only Trollunit you can get without an outpost
* Stone-Troll: Long range siege, which is very robust against arrows, but also very slow; Fullfills the role of the former Mountains Giants and uses their animations.
He should have a much darker skin, than the normal cave Trolls looking a lot more like being made out of stone...
Another possible design-model could be the
* Hill-Troll: Huge area-damage and fast movement; very vulnerable against spears and arrows; the weapon should be the classical ripped out tree ore a very archic club instead of the hammer the unit got in the Angmar-faction.
Additional to this I would like to see a reskin of the Hill-Troll, because the I never liked the green skin colour which looked more like WarCraft, than like Middle-Earth. I´d like to sugggest a design from BotFA, apart from a lot of bad designs we were shown a few were pretty good in my oppinion. This pale one with no armour at all fits my imagination well:

* Snow-Troll: High single-target-damage against buildings and single units as heroes; the damage is as high as the ram-damage, but the unit is much more vulnerable against arrows; still uses the ice pickSo every Troll-unit has it´s one purpose and the MM have taking in acount the tunnel-diggers in total 4 different siege units (5 with the dragons), so MM catches up with the other evil factions...
If people like my ideas, I will post them in a seperate thread as an general outpost-concept together with my dragon-idea. I also made a huge Smaug concept two years ago, which will be part of the concept aswell, but you have to wait a week, because I first need to invest my time in learning for a very big exam.

Another thing I wanted to talk about is the building design for Gundabad. They shall get the former building-design of the orc-faction, which I always disliked a lot, because it looked more like coming from a fairy-tale than from middle-earth. A much more sinister design would fit a lot better for Azogs home taking some inspiration from the short look on Gundabad we got in the BotFA:

The "Age of the Ring Mod" made a good start, as presented here in a video of Ruuddevil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJFHDHJhO0

Another question are the designs of Smaug and Bolg:
For Bolg I´m pretty unsure which design I like the most, but for Smaug the BOTTA-mod did it very well taking the Wyvern-Design:

You can see him in action in this video at 4:42:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtXUsi7u3t4I don´t really understand the complains about that design not being a dragon. In GoT Daenerys dragons share the same style with the frontlegs as wings and nobody calls the wyverns.
In my oppinion it is the much more realistic design, because no vertebrat in the world has 6 limbs. A dragon with those additional back-wings wouldn´t be able to flight at all, because he can´t use his pectoral muscles.[/list]

Walküre:
If my memory doesn't deceive me, I recall that the Edain Team has already expressed itself against the visual rendition of Gundabad from BOTFA. I think it was a statement of Gnomi, if I'm not wrong. That was a comment of some time ago, however, and I believe one could say that premises may have changed now, after the new changes we faced.

Besides, I myself am quite torn inside between the two choices: the concept of the Hobbit is not one of the best ones crafted by WETA's vision, but I don't really like the idea of having remnants of the vanilla in the game either, considering how loose and chaotic the Goblins were at that time. Should I have to choose, I would personally side with the cinematographic rendition, for the films have a prime status in the Edain Mod.

Melkor Bauglir:
If my memory serves me right, Tolkien himself made some "sketches" for the dragons. And those are the traditional dragons, not the wyvern-likes. I don't care what they'll do in the end, but this was the line of arguing. The team's opinion might have changed though, since it was Ealendril who brought this up.


--- Zitat ---I would personally side with the cinematographic rendition
--- Ende Zitat ---
Which one? :D The LotR-cinematography or the Warhammer-Hobbit-cinematography? (Now it's obviously false to say the Hobbit uses this style exclusively, but the overdesign, overarmoring and overscaling of things is quite apparent. That's actually the thing: Watching some Total War: Warhammer LPs, I realized that the Hobbit movies partially but especially some more creative units from the Vanilla are heavily inspired by that fantasy setting. Stupid idea for the movie, great one for the game...)

And please don't bury my point under a general design-discussion about the Hobbit! It was merely to point out, that LotR and Hobbit use different cinematography / design concepts!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Fredius:
Hmm I am a bit divided on the ideas here. First of all, I agree with you guys that Mountain Giants don't fit into the Misty Mountains, because their allegiance with Sauron is not clear, so I definetly also agree that their role should be replaced by other Troll races. However, there are some things that should be taken into account with the roles and designs you proposed. I believe four types of Trolls is a bit too much, and I would reduce it to three, with the following attributes and designs:


* Cave-Trolls: They currently are have a very versatile role, with the ability to throw rocks and goblins, and pick up trees as weapons. This is something I'd like to keep, because they make the unit very unique and likeable. They don't deal much damage and are pretty easy to kill as far as I remember, but they are pretty cheap compared to other monster units. These Trolls can be recruited from the Moria Base. Design: same as the current in-game ones.
* Hill-Trolls: These guys should be the real damage dealers, and should also be pretty expensive. They already carry clubs from the moment that they are recruited, and can also purchase Heavy Armor when they the upgrade is researched.
These Trolls can be recruited from the Gundabad Base. Design:

* Ogres: The Hill-Troll design from the movies Isildurs Fluch proposed aren't supposed to be Trolls, but rather Ogres. These units should be support "monster" units, in the sense that they might either debuff enemy units, or buff allied units. I can't think of any abilities at the moment, but I will think of them if you like this idea. These beauties can be recruited from the Goblin-Town Base. Design:

This way all three Misty Mountains factions get their own kind of monster unit, each having their own roles and purposes. It makes them even more unique from each other xD.

So why no Stone-Trolls or Snow-Trolls? Well, Stone-Trolls are actually already in the mod, in the form of Bert, Tom and Bill. The Stone-Trolls being represented as Heroes is good enough to me, and design wise they don't differ all too much from the Cave-Trolls. With all roles fullfilled, I don't see a reason for Snow-Trolls to be in the game. I personally don't like their design from RotWK (with the picks and small shields) as well. I'm not against them though; I actually don't mind them replacing the Mountain Giant's Outpost, and if they do, they should be as massive and tanky as the Mountain Giants are. They could be like the ones from the Shadow and Flame mod:
Concerning Gundabad, what I would like is that the base starts out as it is now (using the vanilla Goblin buildings). This because we can see that Azog and his Orcs in the Moria Battle from the first Hobbit movie look pretty primitive and tribal. The vanilla designs fit this image perfectly. However, we could give the Gundabad faction the option to upgrade it's fortress, so that it's main design becomes the same as how the Gundabad fortress looked like in the third movie. This goes perfectly together with the heavy armor concept for the Gundabad units and Trolls, where the Trolls get the Heavy Armor like I proposed here, and the Gundabad Orcs get this look:

Pfew it seems I returned to the forums with a bang :P. In any case, what do you guys think of this whole concept?

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