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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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dkbluewizard:
Let me be clear, I agree with Isildur as it is more lore accurate. Though I would like the Balrog better (and Dagor Dagorath shows us that this is quite easy to do with Gothmog and other balrogs), I am not diametrically opposed to Smaug. I mean he would be cool even if his background really gives him no bases to be with the MM faction. Based on the reasoning presented by Isildur and the lore, I am content with Isildur's proposal if they are going to implement Smaug. However, I don't want him to look like a wyvern. I am against this, and personally he looks more like a Fellbeast to me.

So if Smaug is going to be put in. Do it right. Be as lore consistent as possible, and if the following cannot be implemented then I say go with the Balrog, since he was a bigger threat to the Dwarfs than Smaug anyways. That's my opinion anyways.

Isildurs Fluch:
First of all, I pretty much despise the idea of implementing Ogres into the mod. The only mention of Ogres is, when Bilbo remembers fairy-tales during the riddling with Gollum.
So this creature is pretty much made up by the movies, because they wanted to implement as much stuff as they could instead of focussing on the lore, what I would have prefered.
As I view it, Ogres are just another name for Trolls or a special Troll-race. In my interpretation they are similar to Hill-Trolls...

About the Stone-Trolls: I found PJs interpretation of Bill, Tom and Bert a bit boring, because as you said they seemed like just a bit more intelligent Cave-Trolls. For that reason I don´t find it that big a problem to just give them a different design as Bill, Tom and Bert.
It is not a fact, but more a suggestion, that Bill, Tom and Bert are Stone-Trolls. That´s all what tolkien-gateway has about them:

--- Zitat ---Stone-trolls were a race of trolls in the service of Sauron. Not much is known of these creatures, except that they inhabited the Westlands of Middle-earth and that they spoke a "debased form of the Common Speech". It is possible that they were not actually living beings, but mere counterfeits made by Melkor, and they would return to their stone images once exposed to the light of the Sun.
Bert, Tom, and Bill — the trolls encountered by Bilbo Baggins and his companions on their journey to Erebor — were likely of this kind, as they spoke Westron.
--- Ende Zitat ---

The reason I implemented them was to replace Mountain Giants as a robust long-rage siege-unit, which is totally missing in your suggestion, but in my oppinion the most important one of the three.
The thing is, that the Troll-camp is supposed to be an alternative for the Dragon-lair, so it needs to give you a somewhat equal benefit. So I think 3 different Troll-versions plus a hero (BIll, Tom and Bert) is fine.
Cave-Trolls should be the only Troll-unit accessable without an outpost.

The Snow-Trolls are the least important part of the suggestion and I´m not a huge fan of their EA-design either, but find it still a lot better, than the WarCraft-Hill-Trolls...  :P
I just found it a nice opportunity to implement those and give them a usefull role, but if more people don´t like them this part can be removed or they could take the role of the Stone-Trolls with a different design.
The biggest problem of this discussion is, that everybody has different imaginations of the different Trolls, because the lore is so unclear about them. But as I said, this is also a huge chance...

Concerning Gundabad: When I remember it right, the team didn´t say they don´t like the style of Gundabad, but find it difficult to base a design on this short look we got from the movie. As I have shown there are other mods who made it possible and it looks a lot better than the EA-design, which is the worst in my oppinion. Espacially this dragondesign treasure-store looks very childish and unfitting for Gundabad...

PS: I didn´t like many Warhammer- or WarCraft-style in the Hobbit-movies aswell (especially the Trolls with blade-arms and all that stuff), but there are also a lot of cool designs so I think one must look at every design with no prejudice.

PPS: It is very difficult to base Smaug on the lore, because there is almost none information how he looked like and how many legs he had...
I find the four limb interpretation a lot more realistic, than the six limb-one, but am not stubborn about it aswell. If the majority of the community or the team likes another interpretation more, I´m fine with it, as long as Smaug get´s the place he deserves being a huge monster with enormous power. The only thing which is made clear about him is, that he was very big, stretching from one wall to the other and he is more compared to a force of nature, than to anything else, that means he has to be very powerfull aswell...  [uglybunti]

Walküre:
Hello Melkor! I kind of missed our frank and earnest discussions about pretty much anything, which often end up with being very proper occasions to agree disagree with one another :D


--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 15. Aug 2017, 18:55 ---Which one? :D

--- Ende Zitat ---

Since I was referring to Gundabad, I was obviously talking about the controversial Hobbit trilogy. And I share a same opinion, at an extent, in regards of some visual choices that were evidently questionable; that's why the fortress could certainly have been conceived much better than it has been in the actual film. Nevertheless, I will reiterate my point: anything but the vanilla design, which honestly looks very much generic and reminds me of the time in which Goblins didn't have very much to boast in terms of uniqueness. And given that you also mentioned LOTR, I think that having an additional concept from BOTFA would fare well with the prominent design related to Moria, on which the main sub-faction is exactly fashioned. Let me in fact say how much I appreciate those concepts, which truly embody the iconic ruin/tomb theme of the trilogy (because those mines are really a very sad grave, alongside hiding lethal menaces in the darkness). So, the possible conjunction of these two aspects (the differing interpretations of both trilogies) might indeed work in favour of more diversity in the very faction. And this is obviously a very favourable of a scope.

And, no, don't worry. We won't bury you under fierce criticism connected to graphics; a field whose perceptions depend heavily on each person's tastes. Just, as Isildur has rightly written, even if there are flaws in our way, we ought to set out with a very constructive will to examine things and find solutions, without many prejudices about the matter. Prejudices that once were quite widespread in the past, if we are to take the Hobbit into account.

As for Smaug, the issue seems to have been fairly settled in the previous passages of this large discussion: yes, Tolkien did offer us a concrete representation of his idea of the dragon, which is the one entailing a canonical (based on medieval standards) four-leg dragon. WETA had nonetheless thought about a concept of that kind, at the beginning of the development process, that perfectly mashes the two visions together. And I can't see any defect in that either, satisfying this solution both sides of this debate.

SilverElf:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 13. Aug 2017, 20:35 ---Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Because of lore you think the balrog should be a hero for the MM? Yes the balrogs were generals of morgoth, But the goblins were as afraid of the balrog if not more afraid of the blarog then the followship of the ring. They would feel in terror when the balrogs appears. There is no way that he would fight for the goblins what so ever so he wouldn't be a hero and itsn't lore friendly at all

Now i have a suggestion on my own, Because of that the goblins of moria are afraid of the balrog it would be intrestted to see that the balrog has a fear affect for both enemies and allies. That would be lore friendly for as i said the goblins are afraid of the balrog

Isildurs Fluch:
Being afraid of their generals is pretty much a constant for all evil factions, in fact their soldiers are morivated by fearing their generals more, than the enemy. This is made very clear in the books, just look at how the Orcs view the Nazgûl. So that argument doesn´t really work...

In fact we don´t really now, what the Orcs and the Balrog did in Moria and why the Orcs stayed next to the Balrog, while they also could abbandon the regions where he "rules".
I could imagine them viewing Durins Bane as some kind of a god in the "Greek style", that means fearing and honoring him to the same amount.

From the Balrogs point of view it´s more difficult. Was he planing to do something? Would he have allied with Sauron if Gandalf had not destroyed him? Never forget that he is a Maia and not a stupid creature or beast...

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