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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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dkbluewizard:
Funny I would think Elf in Silver Armor who uses Glorfindel as an avatar to know more about Balrogs and their feats.  :D

Anyhow, as Isildur said, evil is ruled by fear. You could easily just use that argument for Smaug as the Balrog, one major difference is that the Balrog lived among all the Orcs for hundreds of years. Smaug had no orcs and the Goblins didn't go at Erebor until Smaug was already dead. So I don't see the basis for your argument especially since I am ok with Smaug, even if it is not lore accurate--but I would like to see Smaug implemented in the right way and I feel Isildur has done that.

Walküre:
I don't have a clear portrait of the relationship between Goblins and the Balrog in the lore, and some holes in the information provided were probably left to augment that sensation of obscurity which Tolkien fancies a lot (ever-present in tales of this kind). However, if we are to indulge in possible speculations, I would view things as PJ kind of wanted us to consider the Balrog and the environment he lives in. The cinematographic interpretation draws a quite clear depiction of the high hazard surrounding the Balrog, so that Orcs are too bound to flee for their lives in order to avoid such a deadly event. I would also follow in the footsteps of Gandalf's words, when he says that fouler things dwell in the deep places of Arda; a reference to Nameless Things that equally inhabit the forbidden spaces of the mines. Places which no Elf, Dwarf or Man could ever reach, just like that massive underground lake in which Gandalf and the demon fall. And even if Nameless Things are naturally different from the Flames of Morgoth, I can see a common quality that underlies them all. There is a sort of cruel neutrality or ancestral evil that characterises them, which doesn't take into consideration whether their victim is a servant of the Good or of Sauron; an akin case when Shelob devours Orcs with no mercy (a small-scale version of the blind fury and hunger of Ungoliant, who even tries to murder the source of all Evil in the world). Said that, and obviously remembering that Balrogs had pledged support for Melkor and that used to lead armies of countless legions, do you think that a millennia-old evil Maia would not be keen on acting completely unchained and loose, just like the monsters creeping in the water or Ungoliant jeopardising the very life of Melkor.

The awakening of such a dreadful creature is something totally out-of-the-ordinary for the schemes of Middle-earth and Sauron too. A deity of an ancient (lost and forgotten) era that is awakened in rage. A sudden and unexpected factor that no one may control nor expect; a peril which even forces Gandalf to abandon the imperative task to destroy the One Ring (Sauron), because the Balrog should never have trodden the ways of the grey and disenchanted Third Age. This is the vibe I get from the film. A general peril that in some ways endangers all and might disrupt everyone's plans (even the Evil's?). This is why the situational motive is absolutely paramount in the Moria sequence, and this can always be reflected by the very spell. A spell which portrays the Balrog for what he is, without binding him with defined limits. Because a Balrog awakening in the Third Age would probably be not so much interested in conquering, leading and establishing a domain, instead of Sauron that has always sought for the title of master of all Middle-earth. The difference is quite apparent: an atavistic force that doesn't respond to usual schemes, and an established enemy who plans his moves carefully with the utmost cunning will.

Game-wise, the spell fits perfectly with that situational essence of the cinematographic adaptation, and there is no need to balance the Balrog or to do away with some of his features; something that would probably happen, were he to be made available permanently, as a stable hero. The spells allows us to have him unchained and loose as he ought to be, even for limited time.

Julio229:
I agree with Walk on the Balrog issue, a spell helps reflecting the Balrog's true nature more than having him as a permanent hero would.

I also think Smaug should be in the faction, but using a special system like the ones that have been discussed (completion of tasks, giving him tribute...) to help avoid characterizing him as a simple part of the Misty Mountains, and making him what he truly is: a weapon of mass destruction that is not bound to serve anyone, and will only help the armies of the Misty Mountains if there is something in it for him.

To put it in another way, just like greed brought him to Erebor, greed will bring him to help the armies of the Misty Mountains to succeed.

dkbluewizard:
Diewalkure, everything you just stated, could be applied to Smaug, X10, we have already said that Smaug is the ringhero so, the bases is on Isildur's ideas which I totally agree. But if anyone tries to say that Smaug is a better faction and more canonical leader/ringhero for the MM, I would strongly disagree as the Balrog dwelt with Orcs for hundreds of years and if he was as much a danger to them as the fellowship, then they would have been wiped out like the Dwarfs and Durin, pure and simple.

Kind of hard to say the Balrog didn't rule Moria, when the Orcs retreat into Moria after the Battle of Azanulbizar, why didn't the Balrog clean house when they retreated inside and Dain had a peek of the Balrog? Sorry but I don't see the Balrog just being a chaotic beast unleashed.

As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."

As stated though, Smaug is what ET chose, so based on the lore and the way things must be presented, I like Isildur's ideas the best.

Isildurs Fluch:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 02:35 ---As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."

--- Ende Zitat ---
I totally agree with you. Of course the Balrog didn´t rule the Orcs as a Orc-king would. I guess for him the Orcs are more of a usefull tool than anything. Alarming him when anyone dares to enter his realm, like the Fellowship did and helping him to take out his enemys for example the Dwarves.

I interpret the scene in Moria in the following way: As much as Gandalf was sensing the Balrog, the Balrog noticed him as a hostile powerfull Maia and possibly the One ring. That was the reason he appeared and didn´t let the Orcs do the dirty work for him, as with Balins company. He wanted to destroy Gandalf and maybe also take the ring.
For this possible interpretation I´d love to see him as a ring-hero, because he seems to me like the most likely candidate. The ring would than allow him to stay permanent on the Battlefield and his name is changed to Durins Bane.
Integrate him as a normal recruitable hero would be impossible, because he would either be to weak or to expensive.
I´m not sure yet how he could be different to the spell-book Balrog, because just staying permanent seems a bit to boring for me, he should at least get a passive ability or something.

Smaug could be an alternative ring-hero, whith a mechanique were you can put the ring into his dragon-lair. I wnts made a concept about this, but need to update it, because of the changed ring-mechanique. I will do it in one week after my exam...  ;)

Is it possible to split this thread in different threads? At the moment we are discussing to many topics at the same time and it gets  kind of chaotic  [uglybunti]

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