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Autor Thema: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions  (Gelesen 79422 mal)

SilverElf

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #210 am: 16. Aug 2017, 12:48 »
It is more likely that smaug would fight for sauron then the balrog.

What does smaug desire? the awnser is gold. That is the whole reason he went to erebor for the gold. What can sauron offer Smaug? The awnser is gold agian. So smaug could fight for Sauron in return for alot of gold. Maybe all the wealth of the dwarves.

The only thing the balrog desires is the be left alone, Afther Morgoth was defeated the balrogs went into hiding. We don't know how many there are in the third age. We only know of durins bane. If the dwarves never mined to deep in Moria, Durins bane would have stayed in hiding. The only reason he came out is because he was disturbed while he was hiding there by the dwarves. The only other reason the balrog would come out of hiding is if morgoth returns. He would never go out of hiding to fight for sauron or any goblin. He just wants to be left alone intill Morgoth returns so he can fight for him agian  :)

The balrog shouldn't be a hero. As you said he a maia if he was a hero he loses the power that the balrogs has. It loses his impact he has when you summon him making it that he can destroy armies with it in your greatest need, When you are about to lose you summon him. And you push your Enemy back so you giving you another change to fight and retake the land you lost and defeat your enemy. You don't have that if he is a hero. He is a corrupted Maia he should feel strong but if he is a hero he loses that that
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2017, 13:20 von Elf_in_silver_armour »

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #211 am: 16. Aug 2017, 16:18 »
If the Balrog only wants to be left alone, why isn´t he just staying in the deepest dungeon of Moria? Why did he atack the Dwarves and the Fellowship? Ok, the Dwarves kind of forced him out of hiding, but he could have simply killed the few Dwarves that found him instead of destroying the whole kingdom. His atack on the Fellowship, which was really no threat for him definitly proves that hiding isn´t his main intention anymore.

The lore says, that the Dwarves awakened him, so I guess instead of hiding like a minor creature he was kind of sleeping, waiting for the return of his master.
Yes he wouldn´t fight for the Orcs, but rather let the Orcs fight for him.
For Sauron it´s a different story, because Sauron was Morgoths right hand and had most likely a superior rank to Durins Bane in Morgoths forces and you can be sure they knew each other. If I remember it right Sauron send the Orcs indirectly to Moria of course to keep the Dwarves out and very likely also as a kind of gift to the Balrog.
In the style of: "Here do you have an army. Use it!"

I think if Sauron would have become stronger, Durins Bane definitly would have allied with him to defeat his masters enimies end to end his time of hiding once and for all.
I guess he felt the growing darkness after he was awakened by the Dwarves and had the desire to take a role in the upcoming events.
There are also theories claiming that Gandalf knew of this possibility and therefore decided to confront him instead of only ensuring the Fellowship can escape. It´s not that he really tried to run away, although he definitly was afraid of him...

For a normal recruitable hero you are right, the Balrog would definitly be to powerfull, but for a ring-hero he is very suitable and definitly not overpowered compared to ring-Sauron or some other ring-heroes. Never forget his weakness for magical damage, if you exploit that, the Balrog is very destroyable.
The overall dynamic of the Balrog-role in the faction wouldn´t change at all, because you still require a ring additional to the spell to summon him permanently...
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Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #212 am: 16. Aug 2017, 16:37 »
Correct, Blue. I was in fact mainly referring to how PJ has built the whole scene and the feeling behind all that. It is a representation that is probably meant to focus on the theme of digging into the past and awakening an ancient evil. This is also conveyed by the words of Saruman that serve as a warning for Gandalf, in that Dwarven green had awakened something that should always have been buried in the darkest depths of Arda; in addition to that, the wizard's knowledge is wide and perfectly aware of the presence of fouler foes in the mines. Conceptually speaking, Moria symbolises the maze and a perilous pit in which all sorts of horrors are hidden. And I think that the director purposely left some kind of uncertainty in the sequence, which portrays things slightly differently from the lore, as if the Balrog had been awakened again by the coming of the Fellowship (and the very presence of Gandalf).

Set that aspect aside, I imagine that the lore and its usual degree of obscurity does not provide us with a very clear of a response. I mean, it seems to me that it doesn't clarify with enough details the actual nature of the relationship between Goblins and Durin's Bane: whether the latter was regarded as a true leader and monarch-like authority along those ruined halls. And whether the Balrog would manage things as the head of a realm, similarly to Sauron in Mordor, or whether he was instead dreaded as an ancient deity from which it was wise to stay afar. I would personally lean on the last perspective, which is very much in tune with how Orcs fear as well the Maia's gruesome power (what I saw in the film was pure terror indeed) and with how creatures from the First Age are generally deadly for anyone standing near them. Not that the Balrog is keen on exterminating Goblins too, but he probably tolerates them infesting Moria, as long as they do not disturb him; the mines are exactly a silent place, as a solitary grave. I therefore believe that the simple rendition of the films resolves this lack of information, alongside being in line with the dangerous-deity motive I mentioned previously. A motive reinforced by the fact that the Balrog embodies another era and much different standards; his only master was confined in the Void and this might also suggest that the Maia, having no clear boundaries of allegiance, plays a very loose and unchained part in the balance of power of Middle-earth. His awakening was something unexpected for the most, his potential goes beyond the schemes of the Third Age and his intentions are for the most part unknown. He surely could have decided to aid Sauron, had Gandalf failed his mission, but I doubt that setting up an own realm in the Misty Mountains could ever be seen as a reasonable goal for him.

To state it plainly and in simple terms: he's not an alpha (a king), nor is he a beta (a creature with a servitude-like relationship with a leading figure, being Melkor gone). He's instead an omega, responding to no one but himself and representing a legacy of an ancient world which is no more. Unpredictable, solitary and thus potentially dangerous for all (in different terms, but dangerous nonetheless). Akin to Ungoliant, as I pointed out, with the differences of the case. And, although Smaug could surely fall in some of these categories (independence that is to be hopefully shown by a tribute system), the problem is that he's very much into the geopolitics and history of the Third Age. His coming was unexpected, but his very existence was not entirely forgotten by the common knowledge. Furthermore, the Hobbit and the additional details of the Appendices tell us that the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur was planned by Gandalf to avoid the Necromancer and Smaug joining forces (an eventuality that terrorises Gandalf). Thus, we have hints that indicate the likelihood of an alliance between the two, as the Grey Wizard feared; and Smaug is shown capable of joining Sauron's side in a hypothetical war. What we are not told in regards of the Balrog, whose essence is indeed an omega-type one (in the context of the Third Age, of course) and truly situational, which only a situational spell may embody for the good.

By the way, since we are talking about Ring heroes, while Smaug's greed might lead him to desire the One Ring and use it, how could the Balrog ever desire the possession of such artefact? An artefact which is supposed to give back to a depleted Maia his past prowess (after defeats and tragic losses of magic), or to exponentially enhance whoever is to wield it. Yet the Balrog is no depleted Maia, has no restrictions on his power or on his intrinsic being (contrary to Sauron or to Gandalf) and boasts a perfect (or almost perfect) physical/spiritual shape. And he is a Maia, obviously. Which effects could the One Ring have on him? I think the answer would be the same if we imagined Melian, Eönwë or Valar as Varda and Manwë making usage of the One Ring: no effects. It doesn't have logical sense, for the One Ring itself, albeit menacing the people of Middle-earth, could never do anything to make the Maia stronger than the very Maia already is (with full powers, I specify again). Apart from the situational essence of the films and the gameplay reasons that Elf has referred to, I find the idea of giving the One Ring to a Balrog inconsistent in principle. Just like giving that artefact to Morgoth.

Regarding the thread, I feel it ought to remain like this still, because we are addressing many elements at the same time. I would deem it wise to open new threads only if there is a finalised concept to present.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #213 am: 16. Aug 2017, 17:29 »
To Walkure and and Elf in Silver. I think getting hung up on the semantics of whether someone would fight for Sauron is irrelevant. As Isildur suggested, the Balrog no doubt sensed what Gandalf was and what the One Ring was, as you stated Walkure, this would be a very capable thing for him to do since he is a full Maia. However, you also stated how could he use the One Ring. Well he does have restrictions, I mean a Fallen Angel is fallen, and therefore is not as graceful or lordly as they were of old. So I would say the One Ring would restore to him what was lost and make him appear more graceful and return him to a more powerful (yet beautiful form). I do agree however, that the One Ring wouldn't do much for the Valar given their power levels already, but those are much higher than any Maiar. Also the Balrog being an Asocial isolationist, i also disagree with since he killed Durin single handedly, and he caused Nimrodel and Amroth to flee from his presence. Somehow many knew that the Balrog was in Moria and he was just an important catalyst to many characters fate in the books, to where Smaug killed Girion. Durin's Bane killed: Durin VI, Nain, Gandalf, (Indirectly) Nimrodel, Amroth, and we could hypothesize more during the First Age as well. Smaug is a young dragon and was not from Angband.

With the Balrog, he is much in the same boat as Saruman. He is the ruler of Moria, I mean Balrogs were generals and leaders of armies we are saying he just threw that to the way side just to be left alone? That seems highly unlikely given the nature of Balrogs and the lore.

Now to address the fighting with Sauron (which again is irrelevant for factions that can be pitted against one another in a BFME game). Gandalf feared that Smaug would end up fighting for Sauron (he is a young dragon), the Balrog has a past history of fighting for and with Sauron also under the banner of Morgoth, which is a much more heavier piece of information that Gandalf's hypothetical fear. A past history is a better indicator of something happening than a fearful event.

To me, based on what Walkure and Elf in Silver said, I like the idea of the Balrog being the Ring Hero even more now. Why would I want someone who is automatically licking the boots of Sauron? Why not have someone who is semi allied but would be willing to stab in the back at the first moments notice (like Saruman). It also fits for the placement of a hero for this particular faction.

I think people here misinterpret what I am saying and all that I am saying is based on the lore and background of the Balrog, story, and Smaug, and therefore I feel the Balrog would be a better ring hero and faction leader for MM than Smaug (especially since he exists throughout the Hobbit and up to the WOTR).

However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.

Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.

So as stated innumerably we can summarize this. The Balrog fits better overall for the faction and Ring Hero, but ET selected Smaug instead of the Balrog, end of story. Given that this was done, we must present something canonical to make up for this decision, and that is Isildur's ideas which I TOTALLY AGREE WITH.

EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2017, 18:29 von Walküre »
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Fredius

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #214 am: 16. Aug 2017, 19:03 »
Let's not forget that Ring Heroes should be recruitable on the battlefield for them to use the ring. This means that if the Balrog is a Ring Hero, that it also means that it can be recruited whenever the player wants it. I'm very against this idea, because the Balrog is far too OP for it to be just a regular hero by itself. One could say that he could be made weaker, but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice. The Balrog is meant to show everyone the terror of the First Age, a general of Morgoth's armies, just like Sauron was. Something like that is not meant to be a regular recruitable hero, but it fits perfectly as a last tier summon power. Blue Wizard said rightly that Smaug is just a young Dragon, but that makes him much more fitting as a recruitable hero than the Balrog would be.

Furthermore, you can speculate all you want about the Balrog's agenda in Moria, but at least Smaug's intentions are much clearer depicted. There are hints that show that Smaug would fight under Sauron's banner, like Walk said, and that he could lead Sauron's armies into battle. So lorewise there is already more certainty that Smaug would fit better as a faction leader than the Balrog, whose agenda can only be speculated.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2017, 19:10 von Fredius »

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #215 am: 16. Aug 2017, 20:42 »
I never said I wanted to see the Balrog as regular hero, but there could be systems apart from the known systems.
I would suggest the following: MM is the only faction with a unit, that can pick up the ring. This unit could be the pioneer (a builder unit) or an additional one if that is ímpossible. I also could imagine some kind of a shaman-unit which can place totems on the map (like Gorkil did) and collect the ring.

In both cases the player would have 2 choices:
  • Smaug: The ring is brought to the Dragon-lair and it gives Smaug a huge bonus than he is nearby (defending his precious treasure) and provides some huge plundering bonusses, because the ring strengthens Smaugs greed.
  • Durins Bane: When the Balrog is summoned on an area, where the unit with the ring stands, the unit dies and instead of the normal Balrog, Durins Bane appears and stays permanently. The ring has not much effect on him, but Sauron uses it to influence the Balrog to side with him and so he is no permanently available.
I´m not sure if anything of this is actually possible, but if not we may find solutions and working systems.

In one week I´ll present a more detailed concept about Trolls, Dragons and Durins Bane, when I have the time to write it in detail...
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Fredius

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #216 am: 16. Aug 2017, 21:15 »
Speaking spefically about the Balrog part in your concept, why would the player need a special unit for it to get the Ring? Wouldn't it be better to just have the summoned Balrog pick up the ring by itself? In any case, the big problem with this concept is that the Balrog is a final tier summon, meaning that the player first has to aquire a ton of spellpoints, before he can call upon the creature. Chances are that within that time the opponent already got his hands on the Ring trough his own Ring Hero; specifically Gondor, where the player can get Boromir or Denethor for a (relatively) very cheap price. With that, the opponent could have already defeated the Misty Mountains player, before he could even get enough command points to summon the Balrog. The Misty Mountains player just has far less chances than other factions to get its Ring Hero.

And my point still stands, the problem with having the Balrog as a permanent hero, regardless of it having the Ring or not, is that it has to be significantly nerfed in its powers. Right now it can destroy armies and bases, as he should be able to, but if he becomes a permantent hero, it also means that he needs to be nerfed, so that the opponent still has a chance to win the game. Like I explained in my post before, the Balrog should in my opinion absolutely not be nerfed for this purpose. A temporary summon fits perfectly with the Balrog, because that way it doesn't need the nerf, and can remain the ancient horror it deserves to be. One might say that it can be countered by heroes like Gandalf, but not every faction has a hero or unit that can counter the Balrog.

Perhaps some other ideas will come up in the concept you are planning, but as of right now, I personally don't see any way for the Balrog to become a permanent hero (with or without Ring), because of above described arguments.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2017, 21:20 von Fredius »

Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #217 am: 16. Aug 2017, 21:37 »
However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.

Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.

EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.

I wouldn't list all of these reasonings as inexorable facts, given that they are opinions and speculations as much as mine or the ones of other people are. I understood that you don't oppose the choice of Smaug being the atypical leader of the faction. But I also believe that this decision has too its reasons in the lore and canons. Not Hobbits and unicorns, but a sound concept.

A concept usually has the lore, the resemblance to the films and gameplay as its prime pillars, on which everything is then constructed. While gameplay and films make the current design the wisest solution, as it was explained multiple times by the developers and for the reasons I and Fredius stated in the previous passages, the problem lies in the mazes of the lore, which both seems to favour one or the other theory. In my view, taking into account the generalities of the disenchanted Third Age and the nature of the Ainur, Smaug is the most fitting for such role, and for the whole motive of desiring the tenure of the One Ring (which I find very controversial, if it is applied to the Balrog). I question some of your conclusions, Blue, as you would probably question mine, yet I'm also conscious that this degree of thorough speculation about the lore might lead astray or make it hard to find the exact just answer; especially, if obscurity pervades these tales, the case gets inevitably tougher. And it's not rare that contradictions are present in Tolkien's writings. But I don't want to drag you in infinite debates on the canons; there is the Prancing Pony section for this purpose and I gladly invite you there, where we have all the space and means at disposal for this typology of discussions. I think it would be interesting to deal with these matters under a speculative perspective, with people with a solid knowledge as you. I gently disagree with you and I shall rest with my case.

Addressing the essence of fallen angels, they are not weaker due to their very definition of being fallen angels; they have had their nature and powers twisted and marred, of course, but in no way are they weaker just for that. Ainur have their might weakened or halved when they pour their energy into material catalysts to channel their power (like Morgoth with Arda or Sauron with the One), or when they undergo tragic events as a physical destruction of their body, which leaves wounds that may not be deleted. The act of siding with the Evil has instead no depleting influence on them, and the fact of retaining a blessed nature doesn't make one stronger either: the Balrogs were never inferior to the other Maiar by default, just like Melkor is no lesser Vala than their fellow Archangels (he was even mightier than all the other Valar combined, at the beginning of the wars between them). I thus reject the idea of weakened Balrogs, since they never faced a physical death, nor have they ever tried to channel their power in some ways via material means, therefore rendering Durin's Bane the only Maia in the Third Age on whom were not placed restrictions of any sort. This is nonetheless my personal stance, as I personally regard the broad lore. Not just lines or single events, but the broad picture.

On the other note of the topic, the most relevant for the game, I do see that you and Isildur want to come up with a decent outcome, even though you would probably have Smaug and the Balrog switch their position. As you rightly pointed out, Blue, Smaug is an omega-type character equally, and that's why a fair degree of independence from the faction will certainly benefit his actual characterisation, conveying the idea that he acts for his own interest and desire. Henceforth, although the dragon is to be a regular hero, a smart system and some restrictions will evaluate his role more, remaining the most loyal possible to the canons and the films. I just wanted to say that the planned design has too logical arguments behind, and that it's not a mere arbitrary decision.

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #218 am: 16. Aug 2017, 21:48 »
From a gameplay-perspective, both have a similar role and similar abilities, so I am personally indifferent who goes where and does what. However, we know more about Smaug than we know about Durin's Bane as a character, which makes it easier to flesh him out as a hero. I believe ET will keep Durin's Bane as a summon, but what will happen to Smaug is yet unclear.

Furthermore, I also think that Smaug is a bit easier to balance as a hero, since his kit will likely have other abilities besides straight damage output (as in the usual fashion of Edain), like a hypnotic gaze which dragons were well-known for, unlike the Balrog with his current BFME spells. He also has the ability to fly making him weaker to arrows like all fliers, although I believe, unlike Fellbeasts, his thick dragon skin will likely warrant some kind of arrow damage reduction while flying.

Generally, I believe it is easier for the team to work with Smaug as a recruitable hero since the Misty Mountains were originally designed as a faction to be able to accomodate a dragon in their roster, namely Drogoth.

I don't know if ET will stick with the original kit they planned for 4.0 Smaug, which can be seen in this old post here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two

I am just glad Edain is going to flesh out his kit more as a dragon, rather than just keep a lot of abilities that amount to ''do more damage''.
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SilverElf

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #219 am: 16. Aug 2017, 22:13 »
The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird


dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #220 am: 16. Aug 2017, 22:52 »
Due noted from all of you. When the lore gives you facts turn to gameplay. It is the way it has always been and I have seen it before. On the bases of said arguments, I will also state this to Walkure.

You feel the Balrog is at full potential, okay, and you say Sauron has lost part of himself when putting himself in the ring or during the fall or numenor, or during his defeat at the War of the Last Alliance, due noted.

So Walkure you are saying that the Balrog at his full potential is greater than Sauron when he initially poured himself into the ring? Or are you saying that the Balrog is SO powerful that he wouldn't get a boost in power even though Sauron was that much greater than him? If I were to go by the lore and what you have stated, I would have to negate the line in the White Rider: "I am Gandalf the White, but black is mightier still." Gandalf the White states this after his battle with the Balrog and after he wrestled with Sauron in magic. Sauron has and always will always be greater than the Balrog and if he can be boosted by the Ring back to his original levels of power, then I don't see why the Balrog couldn't be boosted to Sauron's level given that he was lesser to him initially anyways. You used Ungoliant as an example, both she and Morgoth both wanted the Silmarils and both would have gotten a boost in power cause of it (example of Ungoliant draining the light of the trees and wells). Appearing lordly and more graceful can have an affect on morale of the enemy and your allied forces as you guys have stated, just because someone is very well rounded doesn't mean they are more powerful thus the ring would still have a minimal effect on the Balrog but a great effect overall.

Speculation, of course, there is no more speculation than what is given for the reasons of the One Ring not working for the Balrog. But again I must reiterate myself. If Smaug is to be implemented then it must be done as Isildur requests and which I agree with.

But understand this, I don't care if Smaug is the main hero of the faction, I don't care if he is a ring hero, what I do care about is lore and since the ET went against the lore, and have Smaug being the Ring hero then adjustments to be made to make it more lore friendly, and it must be implemented, otherwise as stated earlier, you might as well do a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns with Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero and justify it by speculations and holes in the lore as well.

Both Tom and Smaug would not and DID NOT care about the ring and would just end up losing it. So bring it to Smaug's treasure trove wouldn't be such a bad idea.

As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.

"But this is a hypothetical scenario." okay how about this, Smaug catches Bilbo in his lair and burns him to a cinder. The ring is there and he goes back to sleep until Sauron contacts him and gets the ring back. End of story.

Also if Smaug is the ring hero, what's he gonna do, eat the ring like Shelob? In that case he should have it on a timer until such a time that he defecates the ring out. Feel sorry for the next ring hero that finds the ring after that LOL  :D

NO, I am content with Edain's decision to make Smaug the Ring Hero if that is what they want to do, but there is more in the background and lore about the Balrog of Moria than there is about Smaug (Three Ages vs One Age). If Smaug is implemented then do it the right way and that is all I am saying.

From Fredius: "One could say that he could be made weaker, but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice. The Balrog is meant to show everyone the terror of the First Age, a general of Morgoth's armies, just like Sauron was. but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice."

And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.

So what I have proven so far with no rebuttle:

1. The Balrog is not an isolationist given Nimrodel and Amroth's death and everyone knowing about his presence (also he knew the endless stairs of Moria too well, so obviously he maneuvered around and got to know Moria very well), and he slew many heroes.
2. The Balrog is not a mindless chaotic beast, as stated in the lore they were generals and Maiar of terrible power.
3. The ring would have an effect on the Balrog whether it be grace or power, and being a Maia he could utilize what Sauron poured into.
4. The Balrog could be and could have much potential for being the faction leader and ring hero as Smaug, but Edain said otherwise.

In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.

So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.

EDIT:
The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird

1. Balrog not being interested in the ring is speculation, given that he is a Maia he would have more interest in the ring than Smaug.
2. Orc kings existed throughout the First Age but still payed homage to Gothmog (lord of the Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth) so what does that prove? Boldog, Balcmeg, Orcobal, Othrod, and Lug were all Orc Kings/Lords.
3. You can be king/ruler of orcs in Tolkien's work and still be ruled by a creature of higher authority and power obviously.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2017, 23:20 von Walküre »
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #221 am: 16. Aug 2017, 23:09 »

On your first point, I think the Balrog being interested in the Ring because of being a Maia would be purely a matter of speculation too. At least with Smaug, we know he is greedy. He didn't show interest in the One Ring in The Hobbit if I remember correctly, but then again, the Balrog didn't either. So I think they make roughly the same sense as Ring-Heroes, but with the known trait of Smaug being greedy, I think he makes more sense as a Ring-Hero.

We don't have a way of knowing exactly if the Balrog would be interested by the Ring or not, and with Smaug, it is the same issue, but I think that Smaug makes a little more sense.


SilverElf

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #222 am: 16. Aug 2017, 23:13 »
"I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn. "

well not every faction gets it, Also do you know anything about balance in dagor, It is shit. Edain team want to keep it balance and just having a blarog as hero without nerfing him would be to OP there is no way an evil or man and dwarves can deal with that.

Also tom bomadil would just forget about the ring, Smaug wouldnt forget about the ring at all because the ring is made of GOLD and what does Smaug care about GOLD so he would have intressted in it. because as a i said many times Smaug loves gold.

The blarog would never desire the ring at all he doesnt care about power or gold. Smaug might not care about the power but he clearly cares about gold.

It is quite possible that Gandalf wanted Smaug to be destroyed before the War of the Ring began, because, had Smaug allied with Sauron, it would have meant almost certain ruin for the Free Peoples; the forces of Rohan and Gondor would not have been able to bring him down without suffering enormous losses. This idea is reinforced in the extended version of An Unexpected Journey when Gandalf meets with the White Council at Rivendell, as he expresses concern at the possibility of Smaug allying with the new darkness that Radagast had encountered (Although Saruman dismisses this as nothing more than some human playing with black magic rather than recognizing it as Sauron).

Smaug allying with sauron is more likely to happen then the balrog siding with sauron

Fredius

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #223 am: 16. Aug 2017, 23:40 »
As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.

Firstly, Dagor Dagorath added heroes like the Valar to their, uh, mod. Of course they can add the Balrogs with no problem then, you can't compare it to Edain which solely focusses on the Third Age, where such Gods aren't present anymore. Also, what's your point exactly when you mention the Silverthorn? How do you know that Silverthorn works on the Balrog, when the Misty Mountains aren't even released yet? And not all factions have Silverthorn, or a similair upgrade, like Silver Elf said. My point was that not all factions have a "Gandalf" or "Silverthorn" to counter a Balrog, which gives the Misty Mountains an unfair advantage through their Ring Hero already.

And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.

How do you know Smaug is nerfed? Agian, the Misty Mountains aren't released yet, so you can't make any conclussions on his powers. Anyway, Walkure described the ancient menace that the Balrog represents perfectly, and I am not going to repeat his words. The point of my post was that the Balrog is a much better as summon because of earlier described reasons by me and most other people here.

In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.

If that bothers you so much you could always learn to mod yourself, and make the Balrog playable in your own version. It's not hard really ;).

So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.

Most, if not all of your arguments to make the Balrog a Ring Hero, are purely based on speculation, and are not canon. So far you haven't shown any Tolkien confirmed evidence that the Balrog is interested in the Ring. You don't seem to be so firm on the canon as you try to portray yourself to be...
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2017, 23:45 von Fredius »

Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #224 am: 17. Aug 2017, 00:25 »
No, it's not Hobbits and unicorns. In the much aleatory context of what-if scenarios, we are in front of two possible choices, on which the lore does not express in the plainest terms. We are instead bound to make speculations and discuss. I think it makes more sense to have things as they were planned, in respect of those three aspects I mentioned. And even the lore might justify something, albeit dismissing other theses. But I don't have the presumption to state that my opinion is perfectly lore-accurate, and that the opposing suggestion is a lore abomination.

Aye, for the fact of not facing previous losses of might, the Balrog is the most powerful Maia in the Third Age. By the sheer measure of his own prowess, at least. Sauron has lost considerable amount of his magic, but he's indeed the mightiest threat in Middle-earth, due to him ruling massive armies, the foulest kind of creatures and a realm in general. I think that Gandalf was referring to this not so meaningless aspect. I don't believe he was picturing in his mind a direct confrontation with him, whose result would have been determined by sheer force. Confrontation that seriously risked to take place, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time. Sauron, whom some deem pretty much invincible even with halved capabilities, was forced into flight by the sole perceiving of the wizard's arrival. And he was Gandalf the Grey. Leaving differences aside, all Maiar belong to the same order of Ainur and boast an akin level of might. And I'm not saying that one could not tower over another one, but the idea of the One Ring (an artefact of the Second Age) enhancing the majesty of a Maia in perfect state sounds quite absurd. Not that a Maia would not wish to seize the One Ring for himself, but there's not even the need for this to be. Like Eönwë wielding the One; which boost would you entail in this situation?

Ungoliant was a Maia. And the radiance of the Two Trees was renowned to be the grandest of the Valar's deeds, even greater than the ancestral Two Lamps. I don't think we can draw a comparison between the One and the Two Trees, as they encompass totally different themes and features. Together with the reference that it was made in regards of the Arkenstone: is the King's Jewel the material embodiment of a Maia's essence? Does it emanate evil influence? Does it grant magical power? By the way, Sauron's longing for his Ring and the menace which the situation poses are motives intertwined deeply with the Third Age, being LOTR immersed into the War of Wrath. An age in which the Balrog is completely something going beyond schemes. An age to which he does not belong much, unlike Smaug. Therefore, it's not three ages versus a sole one, in my opinion. And, with the utmost respect for Durin's Bane, hiding for millennia in forsaken caverns and lurking silently (more or less) in the creeping shadows of Moria doesn't seem to be very dynamic; I think that guarding the mines is more proper for his characterisation, in the context of the late Third Age (going back to the Elder Days is not of much avail, as that era ended for the good after the War of Wrath and the sinking of Númenor). Whereas Smaug appears more active, given his plan to take control of an entire kingdom on his own, coming from unknown territories of the North. As I said, he's much more in tune with the geopolitics of Middle-earth at that time, as Gandalf exactly feared.

I also fancy a lot the underlying motive of greed which Julio, Elf and Ody talked about. It surely tells something more; useful hints. And gold itself is, as a theme, profoundly connected with greed, in most of the literature that deals with desire and the yearning of things. An ever-green theme in mankind's knowledge. And, as a not appalling coincidence, the One Ring is made of gold. Purely and simply made of gold, without other ornaments. Without gems and jewels, contrary to the other Rings, to symbolise greed, desire and obsession. I guess its very shape, particular and apparently simple, was not without a certain meaning.