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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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SilverElf:
It is more likely that smaug would fight for sauron then the balrog.

What does smaug desire? the awnser is gold. That is the whole reason he went to erebor for the gold. What can sauron offer Smaug? The awnser is gold agian. So smaug could fight for Sauron in return for alot of gold. Maybe all the wealth of the dwarves.

The only thing the balrog desires is the be left alone, Afther Morgoth was defeated the balrogs went into hiding. We don't know how many there are in the third age. We only know of durins bane. If the dwarves never mined to deep in Moria, Durins bane would have stayed in hiding. The only reason he came out is because he was disturbed while he was hiding there by the dwarves. The only other reason the balrog would come out of hiding is if morgoth returns. He would never go out of hiding to fight for sauron or any goblin. He just wants to be left alone intill Morgoth returns so he can fight for him agian  :)

The balrog shouldn't be a hero. As you said he a maia if he was a hero he loses the power that the balrogs has. It loses his impact he has when you summon him making it that he can destroy armies with it in your greatest need, When you are about to lose you summon him. And you push your Enemy back so you giving you another change to fight and retake the land you lost and defeat your enemy. You don't have that if he is a hero. He is a corrupted Maia he should feel strong but if he is a hero he loses that that

Isildurs Fluch:
If the Balrog only wants to be left alone, why isn´t he just staying in the deepest dungeon of Moria? Why did he atack the Dwarves and the Fellowship? Ok, the Dwarves kind of forced him out of hiding, but he could have simply killed the few Dwarves that found him instead of destroying the whole kingdom. His atack on the Fellowship, which was really no threat for him definitly proves that hiding isn´t his main intention anymore.

The lore says, that the Dwarves awakened him, so I guess instead of hiding like a minor creature he was kind of sleeping, waiting for the return of his master.
Yes he wouldn´t fight for the Orcs, but rather let the Orcs fight for him.
For Sauron it´s a different story, because Sauron was Morgoths right hand and had most likely a superior rank to Durins Bane in Morgoths forces and you can be sure they knew each other. If I remember it right Sauron send the Orcs indirectly to Moria of course to keep the Dwarves out and very likely also as a kind of gift to the Balrog.
In the style of: "Here do you have an army. Use it!"

I think if Sauron would have become stronger, Durins Bane definitly would have allied with him to defeat his masters enimies end to end his time of hiding once and for all.
I guess he felt the growing darkness after he was awakened by the Dwarves and had the desire to take a role in the upcoming events.
There are also theories claiming that Gandalf knew of this possibility and therefore decided to confront him instead of only ensuring the Fellowship can escape. It´s not that he really tried to run away, although he definitly was afraid of him...

For a normal recruitable hero you are right, the Balrog would definitly be to powerfull, but for a ring-hero he is very suitable and definitly not overpowered compared to ring-Sauron or some other ring-heroes. Never forget his weakness for magical damage, if you exploit that, the Balrog is very destroyable.
The overall dynamic of the Balrog-role in the faction wouldn´t change at all, because you still require a ring additional to the spell to summon him permanently...

Walküre:
Correct, Blue. I was in fact mainly referring to how PJ has built the whole scene and the feeling behind all that. It is a representation that is probably meant to focus on the theme of digging into the past and awakening an ancient evil. This is also conveyed by the words of Saruman that serve as a warning for Gandalf, in that Dwarven green had awakened something that should always have been buried in the darkest depths of Arda; in addition to that, the wizard's knowledge is wide and perfectly aware of the presence of fouler foes in the mines. Conceptually speaking, Moria symbolises the maze and a perilous pit in which all sorts of horrors are hidden. And I think that the director purposely left some kind of uncertainty in the sequence, which portrays things slightly differently from the lore, as if the Balrog had been awakened again by the coming of the Fellowship (and the very presence of Gandalf).

Set that aspect aside, I imagine that the lore and its usual degree of obscurity does not provide us with a very clear of a response. I mean, it seems to me that it doesn't clarify with enough details the actual nature of the relationship between Goblins and Durin's Bane: whether the latter was regarded as a true leader and monarch-like authority along those ruined halls. And whether the Balrog would manage things as the head of a realm, similarly to Sauron in Mordor, or whether he was instead dreaded as an ancient deity from which it was wise to stay afar. I would personally lean on the last perspective, which is very much in tune with how Orcs fear as well the Maia's gruesome power (what I saw in the film was pure terror indeed) and with how creatures from the First Age are generally deadly for anyone standing near them. Not that the Balrog is keen on exterminating Goblins too, but he probably tolerates them infesting Moria, as long as they do not disturb him; the mines are exactly a silent place, as a solitary grave. I therefore believe that the simple rendition of the films resolves this lack of information, alongside being in line with the dangerous-deity motive I mentioned previously. A motive reinforced by the fact that the Balrog embodies another era and much different standards; his only master was confined in the Void and this might also suggest that the Maia, having no clear boundaries of allegiance, plays a very loose and unchained part in the balance of power of Middle-earth. His awakening was something unexpected for the most, his potential goes beyond the schemes of the Third Age and his intentions are for the most part unknown. He surely could have decided to aid Sauron, had Gandalf failed his mission, but I doubt that setting up an own realm in the Misty Mountains could ever be seen as a reasonable goal for him.

To state it plainly and in simple terms: he's not an alpha (a king), nor is he a beta (a creature with a servitude-like relationship with a leading figure, being Melkor gone). He's instead an omega, responding to no one but himself and representing a legacy of an ancient world which is no more. Unpredictable, solitary and thus potentially dangerous for all (in different terms, but dangerous nonetheless). Akin to Ungoliant, as I pointed out, with the differences of the case. And, although Smaug could surely fall in some of these categories (independence that is to be hopefully shown by a tribute system), the problem is that he's very much into the geopolitics and history of the Third Age. His coming was unexpected, but his very existence was not entirely forgotten by the common knowledge. Furthermore, the Hobbit and the additional details of the Appendices tell us that the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur was planned by Gandalf to avoid the Necromancer and Smaug joining forces (an eventuality that terrorises Gandalf). Thus, we have hints that indicate the likelihood of an alliance between the two, as the Grey Wizard feared; and Smaug is shown capable of joining Sauron's side in a hypothetical war. What we are not told in regards of the Balrog, whose essence is indeed an omega-type one (in the context of the Third Age, of course) and truly situational, which only a situational spell may embody for the good.

By the way, since we are talking about Ring heroes, while Smaug's greed might lead him to desire the One Ring and use it, how could the Balrog ever desire the possession of such artefact? An artefact which is supposed to give back to a depleted Maia his past prowess (after defeats and tragic losses of magic), or to exponentially enhance whoever is to wield it. Yet the Balrog is no depleted Maia, has no restrictions on his power or on his intrinsic being (contrary to Sauron or to Gandalf) and boasts a perfect (or almost perfect) physical/spiritual shape. And he is a Maia, obviously. Which effects could the One Ring have on him? I think the answer would be the same if we imagined Melian, Eönwë or Valar as Varda and Manwë making usage of the One Ring: no effects. It doesn't have logical sense, for the One Ring itself, albeit menacing the people of Middle-earth, could never do anything to make the Maia stronger than the very Maia already is (with full powers, I specify again). Apart from the situational essence of the films and the gameplay reasons that Elf has referred to, I find the idea of giving the One Ring to a Balrog inconsistent in principle. Just like giving that artefact to Morgoth.

Regarding the thread, I feel it ought to remain like this still, because we are addressing many elements at the same time. I would deem it wise to open new threads only if there is a finalised concept to present.

dkbluewizard:
To Walkure and and Elf in Silver. I think getting hung up on the semantics of whether someone would fight for Sauron is irrelevant. As Isildur suggested, the Balrog no doubt sensed what Gandalf was and what the One Ring was, as you stated Walkure, this would be a very capable thing for him to do since he is a full Maia. However, you also stated how could he use the One Ring. Well he does have restrictions, I mean a Fallen Angel is fallen, and therefore is not as graceful or lordly as they were of old. So I would say the One Ring would restore to him what was lost and make him appear more graceful and return him to a more powerful (yet beautiful form). I do agree however, that the One Ring wouldn't do much for the Valar given their power levels already, but those are much higher than any Maiar. Also the Balrog being an Asocial isolationist, i also disagree with since he killed Durin single handedly, and he caused Nimrodel and Amroth to flee from his presence. Somehow many knew that the Balrog was in Moria and he was just an important catalyst to many characters fate in the books, to where Smaug killed Girion. Durin's Bane killed: Durin VI, Nain, Gandalf, (Indirectly) Nimrodel, Amroth, and we could hypothesize more during the First Age as well. Smaug is a young dragon and was not from Angband.

With the Balrog, he is much in the same boat as Saruman. He is the ruler of Moria, I mean Balrogs were generals and leaders of armies we are saying he just threw that to the way side just to be left alone? That seems highly unlikely given the nature of Balrogs and the lore.

Now to address the fighting with Sauron (which again is irrelevant for factions that can be pitted against one another in a BFME game). Gandalf feared that Smaug would end up fighting for Sauron (he is a young dragon), the Balrog has a past history of fighting for and with Sauron also under the banner of Morgoth, which is a much more heavier piece of information that Gandalf's hypothetical fear. A past history is a better indicator of something happening than a fearful event.

To me, based on what Walkure and Elf in Silver said, I like the idea of the Balrog being the Ring Hero even more now. Why would I want someone who is automatically licking the boots of Sauron? Why not have someone who is semi allied but would be willing to stab in the back at the first moments notice (like Saruman). It also fits for the placement of a hero for this particular faction.

I think people here misinterpret what I am saying and all that I am saying is based on the lore and background of the Balrog, story, and Smaug, and therefore I feel the Balrog would be a better ring hero and faction leader for MM than Smaug (especially since he exists throughout the Hobbit and up to the WOTR).

However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.

Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.

So as stated innumerably we can summarize this. The Balrog fits better overall for the faction and Ring Hero, but ET selected Smaug instead of the Balrog, end of story. Given that this was done, we must present something canonical to make up for this decision, and that is Isildur's ideas which I TOTALLY AGREE WITH.

EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.

Fredius:
Let's not forget that Ring Heroes should be recruitable on the battlefield for them to use the ring. This means that if the Balrog is a Ring Hero, that it also means that it can be recruited whenever the player wants it. I'm very against this idea, because the Balrog is far too OP for it to be just a regular hero by itself. One could say that he could be made weaker, but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice. The Balrog is meant to show everyone the terror of the First Age, a general of Morgoth's armies, just like Sauron was. Something like that is not meant to be a regular recruitable hero, but it fits perfectly as a last tier summon power. Blue Wizard said rightly that Smaug is just a young Dragon, but that makes him much more fitting as a recruitable hero than the Balrog would be.

Furthermore, you can speculate all you want about the Balrog's agenda in Moria, but at least Smaug's intentions are much clearer depicted. There are hints that show that Smaug would fight under Sauron's banner, like Walk said, and that he could lead Sauron's armies into battle. So lorewise there is already more certainty that Smaug would fit better as a faction leader than the Balrog, whose agenda can only be speculated.

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