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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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dkbluewizard:
Due noted from all of you. When the lore gives you facts turn to gameplay. It is the way it has always been and I have seen it before. On the bases of said arguments, I will also state this to Walkure.

You feel the Balrog is at full potential, okay, and you say Sauron has lost part of himself when putting himself in the ring or during the fall or numenor, or during his defeat at the War of the Last Alliance, due noted.

So Walkure you are saying that the Balrog at his full potential is greater than Sauron when he initially poured himself into the ring? Or are you saying that the Balrog is SO powerful that he wouldn't get a boost in power even though Sauron was that much greater than him? If I were to go by the lore and what you have stated, I would have to negate the line in the White Rider: "I am Gandalf the White, but black is mightier still." Gandalf the White states this after his battle with the Balrog and after he wrestled with Sauron in magic. Sauron has and always will always be greater than the Balrog and if he can be boosted by the Ring back to his original levels of power, then I don't see why the Balrog couldn't be boosted to Sauron's level given that he was lesser to him initially anyways. You used Ungoliant as an example, both she and Morgoth both wanted the Silmarils and both would have gotten a boost in power cause of it (example of Ungoliant draining the light of the trees and wells). Appearing lordly and more graceful can have an affect on morale of the enemy and your allied forces as you guys have stated, just because someone is very well rounded doesn't mean they are more powerful thus the ring would still have a minimal effect on the Balrog but a great effect overall.

Speculation, of course, there is no more speculation than what is given for the reasons of the One Ring not working for the Balrog. But again I must reiterate myself. If Smaug is to be implemented then it must be done as Isildur requests and which I agree with.

But understand this, I don't care if Smaug is the main hero of the faction, I don't care if he is a ring hero, what I do care about is lore and since the ET went against the lore, and have Smaug being the Ring hero then adjustments to be made to make it more lore friendly, and it must be implemented, otherwise as stated earlier, you might as well do a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns with Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero and justify it by speculations and holes in the lore as well.

Both Tom and Smaug would not and DID NOT care about the ring and would just end up losing it. So bring it to Smaug's treasure trove wouldn't be such a bad idea.

As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.

"But this is a hypothetical scenario." okay how about this, Smaug catches Bilbo in his lair and burns him to a cinder. The ring is there and he goes back to sleep until Sauron contacts him and gets the ring back. End of story.

Also if Smaug is the ring hero, what's he gonna do, eat the ring like Shelob? In that case he should have it on a timer until such a time that he defecates the ring out. Feel sorry for the next ring hero that finds the ring after that LOL  :D

NO, I am content with Edain's decision to make Smaug the Ring Hero if that is what they want to do, but there is more in the background and lore about the Balrog of Moria than there is about Smaug (Three Ages vs One Age). If Smaug is implemented then do it the right way and that is all I am saying.

From Fredius: "One could say that he could be made weaker, but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice. The Balrog is meant to show everyone the terror of the First Age, a general of Morgoth's armies, just like Sauron was. but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice."

And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.

So what I have proven so far with no rebuttle:

1. The Balrog is not an isolationist given Nimrodel and Amroth's death and everyone knowing about his presence (also he knew the endless stairs of Moria too well, so obviously he maneuvered around and got to know Moria very well), and he slew many heroes.
2. The Balrog is not a mindless chaotic beast, as stated in the lore they were generals and Maiar of terrible power.
3. The ring would have an effect on the Balrog whether it be grace or power, and being a Maia he could utilize what Sauron poured into.
4. The Balrog could be and could have much potential for being the faction leader and ring hero as Smaug, but Edain said otherwise.

In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.

So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.

EDIT:
--- Zitat von: Elf_in_silver_armour am 16. Aug 2017, 22:13 ---The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird

--- Ende Zitat ---

1. Balrog not being interested in the ring is speculation, given that he is a Maia he would have more interest in the ring than Smaug.
2. Orc kings existed throughout the First Age but still payed homage to Gothmog (lord of the Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth) so what does that prove? Boldog, Balcmeg, Orcobal, Othrod, and Lug were all Orc Kings/Lords.
3. You can be king/ruler of orcs in Tolkien's work and still be ruled by a creature of higher authority and power obviously.

Julio229:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 23:02 ---
--- Zitat von: Elf_in_silver_armour am 16. Aug 2017, 22:13 ---The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird

--- Ende Zitat ---

1. Balrog not being interested in the ring is speculation, given that he is a Maia he would have more interest in the ring than Smaug.
2. Orc kings existed throughout the First Age but still payed homage to Gothmog (lord of the Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth) so what does that prove? Boldog, Balcmeg, Orcobal, Othrod, and Lug were all Orc Kings/Lords.
3. You can be king/ruler of orcs in Tolkien's work and still be ruled by a creature of higher authority and power obviously.


--- Ende Zitat ---

On your first point, I think the Balrog being interested in the Ring because of being a Maia would be purely a matter of speculation too. At least with Smaug, we know he is greedy. He didn't show interest in the One Ring in The Hobbit if I remember correctly, but then again, the Balrog didn't either. So I think they make roughly the same sense as Ring-Heroes, but with the known trait of Smaug being greedy, I think he makes more sense as a Ring-Hero.

We don't have a way of knowing exactly if the Balrog would be interested by the Ring or not, and with Smaug, it is the same issue, but I think that Smaug makes a little more sense.

SilverElf:
"I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn. "

well not every faction gets it, Also do you know anything about balance in dagor, It is shit. Edain team want to keep it balance and just having a blarog as hero without nerfing him would be to OP there is no way an evil or man and dwarves can deal with that.

Also tom bomadil would just forget about the ring, Smaug wouldnt forget about the ring at all because the ring is made of GOLD and what does Smaug care about GOLD so he would have intressted in it. because as a i said many times Smaug loves gold.

The blarog would never desire the ring at all he doesnt care about power or gold. Smaug might not care about the power but he clearly cares about gold.

It is quite possible that Gandalf wanted Smaug to be destroyed before the War of the Ring began, because, had Smaug allied with Sauron, it would have meant almost certain ruin for the Free Peoples; the forces of Rohan and Gondor would not have been able to bring him down without suffering enormous losses. This idea is reinforced in the extended version of An Unexpected Journey when Gandalf meets with the White Council at Rivendell, as he expresses concern at the possibility of Smaug allying with the new darkness that Radagast had encountered (Although Saruman dismisses this as nothing more than some human playing with black magic rather than recognizing it as Sauron).

Smaug allying with sauron is more likely to happen then the balrog siding with sauron

Fredius:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 22:52 ---As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Firstly, Dagor Dagorath added heroes like the Valar to their, uh, mod. Of course they can add the Balrogs with no problem then, you can't compare it to Edain which solely focusses on the Third Age, where such Gods aren't present anymore. Also, what's your point exactly when you mention the Silverthorn? How do you know that Silverthorn works on the Balrog, when the Misty Mountains aren't even released yet? And not all factions have Silverthorn, or a similair upgrade, like Silver Elf said. My point was that not all factions have a "Gandalf" or "Silverthorn" to counter a Balrog, which gives the Misty Mountains an unfair advantage through their Ring Hero already.


--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 22:52 ---And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.

--- Ende Zitat ---

How do you know Smaug is nerfed? Agian, the Misty Mountains aren't released yet, so you can't make any conclussions on his powers. Anyway, Walkure described the ancient menace that the Balrog represents perfectly, and I am not going to repeat his words. The point of my post was that the Balrog is a much better as summon because of earlier described reasons by me and most other people here.


--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 22:52 ---In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.

--- Ende Zitat ---

If that bothers you so much you could always learn to mod yourself, and make the Balrog playable in your own version. It's not hard really ;).


--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 22:52 ---So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Most, if not all of your arguments to make the Balrog a Ring Hero, are purely based on speculation, and are not canon. So far you haven't shown any Tolkien confirmed evidence that the Balrog is interested in the Ring. You don't seem to be so firm on the canon as you try to portray yourself to be...

Walküre:
No, it's not Hobbits and unicorns. In the much aleatory context of what-if scenarios, we are in front of two possible choices, on which the lore does not express in the plainest terms. We are instead bound to make speculations and discuss. I think it makes more sense to have things as they were planned, in respect of those three aspects I mentioned. And even the lore might justify something, albeit dismissing other theses. But I don't have the presumption to state that my opinion is perfectly lore-accurate, and that the opposing suggestion is a lore abomination.

Aye, for the fact of not facing previous losses of might, the Balrog is the most powerful Maia in the Third Age. By the sheer measure of his own prowess, at least. Sauron has lost considerable amount of his magic, but he's indeed the mightiest threat in Middle-earth, due to him ruling massive armies, the foulest kind of creatures and a realm in general. I think that Gandalf was referring to this not so meaningless aspect. I don't believe he was picturing in his mind a direct confrontation with him, whose result would have been determined by sheer force. Confrontation that seriously risked to take place, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time. Sauron, whom some deem pretty much invincible even with halved capabilities, was forced into flight by the sole perceiving of the wizard's arrival. And he was Gandalf the Grey. Leaving differences aside, all Maiar belong to the same order of Ainur and boast an akin level of might. And I'm not saying that one could not tower over another one, but the idea of the One Ring (an artefact of the Second Age) enhancing the majesty of a Maia in perfect state sounds quite absurd. Not that a Maia would not wish to seize the One Ring for himself, but there's not even the need for this to be. Like Eönwë wielding the One; which boost would you entail in this situation?

Ungoliant was a Maia. And the radiance of the Two Trees was renowned to be the grandest of the Valar's deeds, even greater than the ancestral Two Lamps. I don't think we can draw a comparison between the One and the Two Trees, as they encompass totally different themes and features. Together with the reference that it was made in regards of the Arkenstone: is the King's Jewel the material embodiment of a Maia's essence? Does it emanate evil influence? Does it grant magical power? By the way, Sauron's longing for his Ring and the menace which the situation poses are motives intertwined deeply with the Third Age, being LOTR immersed into the War of Wrath. An age in which the Balrog is completely something going beyond schemes. An age to which he does not belong much, unlike Smaug. Therefore, it's not three ages versus a sole one, in my opinion. And, with the utmost respect for Durin's Bane, hiding for millennia in forsaken caverns and lurking silently (more or less) in the creeping shadows of Moria doesn't seem to be very dynamic; I think that guarding the mines is more proper for his characterisation, in the context of the late Third Age (going back to the Elder Days is not of much avail, as that era ended for the good after the War of Wrath and the sinking of Númenor). Whereas Smaug appears more active, given his plan to take control of an entire kingdom on his own, coming from unknown territories of the North. As I said, he's much more in tune with the geopolitics of Middle-earth at that time, as Gandalf exactly feared.

I also fancy a lot the underlying motive of greed which Julio, Elf and Ody talked about. It surely tells something more; useful hints. And gold itself is, as a theme, profoundly connected with greed, in most of the literature that deals with desire and the yearning of things. An ever-green theme in mankind's knowledge. And, as a not appalling coincidence, the One Ring is made of gold. Purely and simply made of gold, without other ornaments. Without gems and jewels, contrary to the other Rings, to symbolise greed, desire and obsession. I guess its very shape, particular and apparently simple, was not without a certain meaning.

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