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Autor Thema: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions  (Gelesen 15920 mal)

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #225 am: 17. Aug 2017, 00:38 »
 :D Wow, to all of you I said that I support Isildur's idea and Smaug was already picked to be a ring hero. I said all of this if you actually read my posts  [ugly]

Anyways, then if nothing is out then how do we know that Edain could or couldn't balance the Balrog out? I was going based off of vanilla BFME2 Balrog, which is also everyone else's bases or if not where does it come from? The Lore? Give me a break.

Look Elf in Silver I already said before that Smaug cares about quantity not quality he didn't even know about the ring or arkenstone in his view/possession in the Hobbit.

"Most, if not all of your arguments to make the Balrog a Ring Hero, are purely based on speculation, and are not canon. So far you haven't shown any Tolkien confirmed evidence that the Balrog is interested in the Ring. You don't seem to be so firm on the canon as you try to portray yourself to be..."

Apparently neither yourself Fredius, for my bases came from the Balrog's background, history, and what was actually written about not some made up reason about greed nor because of Sauron allying with Smaug. How does that even make him qualify as a ring hero, in fact it is the opposite, it is Sauron's ring, why the heck would Sauron want a dragon to have his ring and use it? And that is more canonical to you?  :D

"We don't have a way of knowing exactly if the Balrog would be interested by the Ring or not, and with Smaug, it is the same issue, but I think that Smaug makes a little more sense." --Julio229

Well not really Julio, you're telling me someone being greedy is a higher qualifier than a Maia who knows the intricate makings of the world, who has been a general for evil armies, who is of the same race as Sauron and has magic? In that case any evil Dwarf hero is a better ring hero than the Balrog apparently.  ;)



Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #226 am: 17. Aug 2017, 00:47 »
Blue, I got that you accepted the official line, but why are you constantly referring to it as a lore/gameplay disaster that you really loathe from the depth of your heart? :D

At least, this is what I grasped from your comments, after you mentioned lore abominations, not canonical choices and flaws in principle. If you don't like something, there is no problem in making us aware of this. Diverging opinions usually benefit the main debate, just like Narya. I'm equally interested in your own ideas too, albeit different from mine :)

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #227 am: 17. Aug 2017, 00:54 »

Aye, for the fact of not facing previous losses of might, the Balrog is the most powerful Maia in the Third Age. By the sheer measure of his own prowess, at least. Sauron has lost considerable amount of his magic, but he's indeed the mightiest threat in Middle-earth, due to him ruling massive armies, the foulest kind of creatures and a realm in general. I think that Gandalf was referring to this not so meaningless aspect. I don't believe he was picturing in his mind a direct confrontation with him, whose result would have been determined by sheer force. Confrontation that seriously risked to take place, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time. Sauron, whom some deem pretty much invincible even with halved capabilities, was forced into flight by the sole perceiving of the wizard's arrival. And he was Gandalf the Grey. Leaving differences aside, all Maiar belong to the same order of Ainur and boast an akin level of might. And I'm not saying that one could not tower over another one, but the idea of the One Ring (an artefact of the Second Age) enhancing the majesty of a Maia in perfect state sounds quite absurd. Not that a Maia would not wish to seize the One Ring for himself, but there's not even the need for this to be. Like Eönwë wielding the One; which boost would you entail in this situation?

Ungoliant was a Maia. And the radiance of the Two Trees was renowned to be the grandest of the Valar's deeds, even greater than the ancestral Two Lamps. I don't think we can draw a comparison between the One and the Two Trees, as they encompass totally different themes and features. Together with the reference that it was made in regards of the Arkenstone: is the King's Jewel the material embodiment of a Maia's essence? Does it emanate evil influence? Does it grant magical power? By the way, Sauron's longing for his Ring and the menace which the situation poses are motives intertwined deeply with the Third Age, being LOTR immersed into the War of Wrath. An age in which the Balrog is completely something going beyond schemes. An age to which he does not belong much, unlike Smaug. Therefore, it's not three ages versus a sole one, in my opinion. And, with the utmost respect for Durin's Bane, hiding for millennia in forsaken caverns and lurking silently (more or less) in the creeping shadows of Moria doesn't seem to be very dynamic; I think that guarding the mines is more proper for his characterisation, in the context of the late Third Age (going back to the Elder Days is not of much avail, as that era ended for the good after the War of Wrath and the sinking of Númenor). Whereas Smaug appears more active, given his plan to take control of an entire kingdom on his own, coming from unknown territories of the North. As I said, he's much more in tune with the geopolitics of Middle-earth at that time, as Gandalf exactly feared.

I also fancy a lot the underlying motive of greed which Julio, Elf and Ody talked about. It surely tells something more; useful hints. And gold itself is, as a theme, profoundly connected with greed, in most of the literature that deals with desire and the yearning of things. An ever-green theme in mankind's knowledge. And, as a not appalling coincidence, the One Ring is made of gold. Purely and simply made of gold, without other ornaments. Without gems and jewels, contrary to the other Rings, to symbolise greed, desire and obsession. I guess its very shape, particular and apparently simple, was not without a certain meaning.

1. Walkure I was referring to the match between Gandalf the White and Sauron at Amon Hen, what you site is of the battle with the White Council and many were present there as told in the Hobbit. Also, when Sauron forged the Ring he was at full power (from his First Age incarnation). Also Eonwe wielded the Silmaril's (two of them) without any problem. To suggest that he would take the ring is folly and something he would not do, oh and he is more powerful than the Balrog by far. Why would a boost even apply to him given that he wouldn't even take it for himself?

Point 2: 1. I was drawing comparison between Silmarils and the One, not the Two Trees. Silmarils that were made by Feanor and his gems boosted Ungoliant. Just saying he wasn't near eithers level.
2. Durin's Bane was trapped, yes he hid after WoW but he was trapped later on, that is why he acted up after his release.

Point 3: I'll just quote something for all you awesome loreists out there since THIS IS CANONICAL:

"For five hundred years, Moria was left to the Balrog. Sauron began to put his plans for war into effect around the year 2480 of the Third Age. As part of these, he sent Orcs and Trolls to the Misty Mountains to bar all of the passes. Some of these creatures came to Moria. It is unclear whether Sauron could have controlled the Balrog (they were both Maiar) but it is probable that they would have been allied against the "common good". The Balrog did allow the Orcs and trolls to remain in Moria while it dwelt there. We do not know whether Sauron was aware of the Balrog's presence prior to this time."

Just a little something from Tolkien Gateway, access to Sauron's troops seem to be a bigger indicator than just mere greed, if going by speculations.  :o

Walkure, I am not upset by ET choice, I have stated and written over and over again that I am OKAY WITH ET CHOICE OF SMAUG but it should be canonically implemented via Isildur's ideas. HOW HARD WAS THAT TO FOLLOW?

The Balrog would be a more canonical choice, but that is BESIDES THE POINT SMAUG IS ALREADY PICKED. So if all of you are trying to convince me otherwise, there have been no good examples, just opinions--the Balrog IS A BETTER CHOICE THAN SMAUG, but SMAUG IS ALREADY PICKED. So I want a canonical solution.
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Aug 2017, 01:01 von dkbluewizard »
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #228 am: 17. Aug 2017, 01:28 »
The Jewels are the radiance of the Two Trees themselves. When the Trees were poisoned by Ungoliant, they were the only thing that could have brought them back to life, as Yavanna wished and as she told the council of the Valar, with the breaking of their shape and the revitalisation of the dead ruins of Laurelin and Telperion. So, mentioning the Silmarils cannot go far from considering their source in the equation as well. By the way, it was not the Silmarils that made Ungoliant titanic and permitted her to come close to (if not to surpass) the level of a Vala, as she was able to bind Tulkas with her webs of darkness and of anti-light or dark light, which is not just the absence of light (darkness), but its very living nemesis. She got huge due to the life and energy she sucked out from the Two Trees. She never ate the Jewels, as the Valar feared in terror, lest they be made into nothingness. And Melkor prevented this from happening, betraying her. As for Eönwë, you got my point then: it's not reasonable that a Maia in perfect state would ever long for the One Ring (which is honestly a lesser artefact for the Ainur).

And, regarding Tolkien Gateway, I am familiar with that explanation too. But that sounds more as a speculation, as ours are. It states that Sauron could be absolutely unaware of the Balrog even existing in Moria in previous times. While the presence of Orcs and Trolls might be explained with my previous hypothesis: the Balrog tolerates their presence, as long as they don't result in a cause of disturbance. It's quite different from saying that he then disposed of a structured and loyal army. As you can see, it's mostly a matter of speculations still. It's not that we want to indulge in speculating; it's more that we can't get away from them :D

Anyway, I don't want anyone to feel frustrated by potentially tedious arguments that belong to the Prancing Pony section. They're certainly not tedious for me, but for other people might. I reckon the debate might cause us to go round and amok in search of lore-related reasons. If Blue doesn't mind Smaug being the Ring hero of the faction, then it's totally fine. May the development of Isildur's ideas go forward :)
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Aug 2017, 01:31 von Walküre »

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #229 am: 17. Aug 2017, 01:43 »
The Jewels are the radiance of the Two Trees themselves. When the Trees were poisoned by Ungoliant, they were the only thing that could have brought them back to life, as Yavanna wished and as she told the council of the Valar, with the breaking of their shape and the revitalisation of the dead ruins of Laurelin and Telperion. So, mentioning the Silmarils cannot go far from considering their source in the equation as well. By the way, it was not the Silmarils that made Ungoliant titanic and permitted her to come close to (if not to surpass) the level of a Vala, as she was able to bind Tulkas with her webs of darkness and of anti-light or dark light, which is not just the absence of light (darkness), but its very living nemesis. She got huge due to the life and energy she sucked out from the Two Trees. She never ate the Jewels, as the Valar feared in terror, lest they be made into nothingness. And Melkor prevented this from happening, betraying her. As for Eönwë, you got my point then: it's not reasonable that a Maia in perfect state would ever long for the One Ring (which is honestly a lesser artefact for the Ainur).

And, regarding Tolkien Gateway, I am familiar with that explanation too. But that sounds more as a speculation, as ours are. It states that Sauron could be absolutely unaware of the Balrog even existing in Moria in previous times. While the presence of Orcs and Trolls might be explained with my previous hypothesis: the Balrog tolerates their presence, as long as they don't result in a cause of disturbance. It's quite different from saying that he then disposed of a structured and loyal army. As you can see, it's mostly a matter of speculations still. It's not that we want to indulge in speculating; it's more that we can't get away from them :D

Anyway, I don't want anyone to feel frustrated by potentially tedious arguments that belong to the Prancing Pony section. They're certainly not tedious for me, but for other people might. I reckon the debate might cause us to go round and amok in search of lore-related reasons. If Blue doesn't mind Smaug being the Ring hero of the faction, then it's totally fine. May the development of Isildur's ideas go forward :)

1. Yes about the jewels absorbing light of the two trees, but the other jewels Morgoth fed on the way increased her in size as well and that was Feanor's own making without any Valar influence albeit lesser artifacts to Ungoliant but still boosted her power.

2. Actually it enhances, as I said, why would Sauron want someone to actually control his own ring? Especially Smaug? A Saruman like system (which the Balrog is) makes more sense, especially if factions are pitted against one another.

3. Yes I don't mind and I was saying I support Isildur's position a long time ago. However with the canoncial examples we do have from the books, the Balrog does make more sense which is beside the point because ET has already selected Smaug. So that was my point.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #230 am: 17. Aug 2017, 12:00 »
Wow so much talking at cross-purposes...  8-|

I first want to make one thing clear: All ring-bearers besides Sauron, Bilbo and Frodo are pure speculations and what-if scenarios. But there are better suggestions and worse ones...

In fact there is no real evidence that a Maia couldn´t make use of the One Ring, in my oppinion the lore counts in the opposite direction, as Gandalf says he didn´t take the ring not because he couldn´t use it, but because he would give it to much power, because in reverse the ring would give him the opportunity to unlock greater power.
The only non-Ainur character which we kind of saw using the ring for magical powers was Galadriel, but we don´t really know how the ring would have affected her, what we saw were here own intrinsic power and the things she learned from Melian.
And it´s also said that Elves are the most like the Ainur from all the Children of Illuvatar and Aule.

In my oppinion the Balrog is as far away from being a "pure Maia" whatever that means as Gandalf or Saruman. Those two use their power and abbilities just in different ways than him, who just focusses on brute force. As I view it all the followers of Melkor are in a way degenerated and not fullfilling their true potential, because they deviate from the role, that was given to them by Eru.

Next you have to ask yourself what is the ring: It´s an object in that Sauron put much of his will and power, therefore it always tries to manipulate the ring-bearer according to Saurons plan. That should be our basis for discussion...
« Letzte Änderung: 20. Aug 2017, 14:07 von Isildurs Fluch »
Harad - Gesamtkonzept für eine neue Fraktion
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

Concept for Mordor-troll-armour
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32808.15.html

Konzept für Mordor-Troll-Rüstungen:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34768.0.html


Vielen Dank an CMG für Avatar und Banner...

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #231 am: 19. Aug 2017, 18:15 »
Isildur, I think you hit on some very good points as I have. I really think the Saruman like system we have for Isengard is what the MM should mirror through the Balrog, but Edain Team wants Smaug for whatever reason, so that is why your idea is the most sound and lore worthy.

I mean I don't mind playing a flying dragon ring hero that can incinerate all troops in a moments notice--i mean, it's cool, but the Balrog as you stated is a more lore worthy choice. I never understood what fighting for Sauron had to do with Smaug wielding the ring anyways, that was kinda of weird justification if you ask me. I mean "Sauron does not share power." So I found that as an odd reason to justify Smaug as a ring hero.

Anyhow, I would continue with your idea Isildur, it is a good one, I like the fact that you are dedicated to the lore and tolkien's work as I am. I always appreciate a real Tolkienist.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #232 am: 20. Aug 2017, 14:13 »
Anyhow, I would continue with your idea Isildur, it is a good one, I like the fact that you are dedicated to the lore and tolkien's work as I am. I always appreciate a real Tolkienist.
So do I  ;)
Thank you, I will sit down this week and write a concept about outposts and ring-heroes for the Misty Mountains and translate my Harad-concept, but first I have to finish my exams...  8-|

Concerning the design of the Gundabad-buildings I´m not even sure if the teams really wants to stick to the old orc-design, which I never liked. Maybe they already decided to go for something else and all discussion about is worthless. A statement from an insider would help a lot. I´m not talking about sharing secrets, but simply telling us if the plan is still to use the old design.
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Harad - Gesamtkonzept für eine neue Fraktion
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

Concept for Mordor-troll-armour
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32808.15.html

Konzept für Mordor-Troll-Rüstungen:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34768.0.html


Vielen Dank an CMG für Avatar und Banner...

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #233 am: 31. Aug 2017, 23:13 »
Ehi guys ;) so many new ideas here  xD
Starting from the Barlog: i would like to have him as a summon because imo is the best way to exploit all his potential. I cannot see any other good way to introduce him for now. At least with Smaug we have some arguments to link him with the ring (he's greedy).

About giants, i repost my idea for a new type of mountain troll unit design, to replace the vanilla one:
This unit would be a bigger version of the current cave-troll, something that is closer to the maximum evil-perversion of Ent race.
i would make them very tanky and resistant against arrow, and with an active ability like the curent "stomp" which creates a small earthquake that deals good damage against structure and medium damage against troops :)

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #234 am: 1. Sep 2017, 01:27 »
Actually I have been looking at the possible good faction list, and evil is really coming up short. I am putting together an evil faction that might help with balance and we can all still get what we want. I'll post it in a couple of weeks. It is connected to the MM and functions like the Dwarf system with new and familiar units/heroes.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Gandalf7000

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #235 am: 5. Sep 2017, 10:39 »
Any ideas about other ultimate 10pp spell for MM? I had a thought to be able to summon bats that cause darkness that debuffs all enemies on the entire map temporarily. This was also clearly described in the book just as the battle of the five armies starts. Thoughts?

Offline kmogon

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #236 am: 5. Sep 2017, 16:21 »
There was a discution about it on this site. We concluded that best option would be summoning command center from which azog was giving orders in hobbit which could bring some all map bonuses an would suit new spellbook build. Additionally this would bring two ultimate spells from two different trylogies. Unfortunately ET said that second ultimate will be drago strike.

Offline Fredius

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #237 am: 5. Sep 2017, 16:58 »
The current ultimate spells are the Balrog and Dragon Strike. If that summoned command center would be implemented, then it should replace the Dragon Strike power, not the Balrog.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #238 am: 5. Sep 2017, 19:07 »
Any ideas about other ultimate 10pp spell for MM? I had a thought to be able to summon bats that cause darkness that debuffs all enemies on the entire map temporarily. This was also clearly described in the book just as the battle of the five armies starts. Thoughts?

Yes, that was the proposal and Ealendril had liked it. I myself am really fond of the suggestion, for it comprises a pivotal happening in the very Hobbit, which Tolkien too narrates in his book. The whole idea connects very well with the theme of the faction, of which controlling the most diverse range of fell creatures is exactly a part. Bats, in this case; a specie which loathes sunlight as much as Goblins do.

By the way, this premise constituted the idea of the old weather-spell logic. I'm not sure whether the idea of a spell of this typology would be very much fine-tuned with the spirit that the new overhaul is to embrace, although Rohan, Isengard and Mordor do boast this specific feature in their new spellbooks. Even if not as an ultimate spell, clouds of blood-thirsty and menacing bats would be totally suitable for the faction, I daresay.

Offline Thranduils

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions About Giants
« Antwort #239 am: 16. Sep 2017, 12:04 »
the giants of movie you dont like it or you cant texture it because i like it the part of giant in hobbit if you disagree guys make vote  i agree to be part on edain