Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

[Walküre]

Nice idea. I myself have always been fond of the trident we may see in FOTR, as I think it adds something more to the troll: a much cruel and definitely wilder touch, as the weapon itself seems to be an improvised tool (as if it were more appropriate for hunting, rather than the actual battle). Now, I don't know if a trident would be a tough eventuality to cope with, since there might be issues with animations. I'm nonetheless open-minded towards this possibility

[Julio229]

Nice idea. I myself have always been fond of the trident we may see in FOTR, as I think it adds something more to the troll: a much cruel and definitely wilder touch, as the weapon itself seems to be an improvised tool (as if it were more appropriate for hunting, rather than the actual battle). Now, I don't know if a trident would be a tough eventuality to cope with, since there might be issues with animations. I'm nonetheless open-minded towards this possibility

I'm glad you liked the idea! I thought about the possible problems with the trident animation, but I think some animation like the hammer or sword one Mordor Trolls have could be used as a workaround if needed. Don't know how it would look, though.

[Walküre]

Correct. Animations could be the real issue. Although I'm personally fascinated by animations/skeletons, they're also quite complex to go through. I can't recall whether there is a suitable animation at disposal, but I would say that the concept is worth making an attempt, at least.

[AulëTheSmith]

Hello Fellows of Modding union ;
Since there are a lot of discussions  around the mighty Smaug, i decided to present my general (for now very raw) idea of my "ideal Smaug". Take it in the spirit of this thread: discussion and speculation no more than that (at least since MM faction will be near ). Feel free to give your own opinion about anything related to the concept of the future Smaug and what you like/don't like about mine (i repeat in general is a first raw idea without many details):

SMAUG THE GOLDEN : MY PERSONAL CONCEPT
First of all i want to make a clarification : this whole concept has been made with the spirit of the thread itself. It is not something to present (we are  still far from MM) but only to speculate and discuss and, eventually, to take as a source of inspiration for future concepts.
I decided to focus the attention to the three fundamental aspect of the mighty dragon :
-   He’s a very powerful weapon
-   He’s greedy
-   He’s very smart
Possible initial statistic values of the dragon :
-   recriutment cost : 5500.
-   Initial HP : 12000.
-   Population cost: 30 (like other heroes).
-   Initial melee attack value: 300.
-   Type of melee attack: AOE.
The core of my concept.
Initially the Greatest Calamity of Middle Earth will have a weakness against arrows while flying, but with an increasing of the armor at level five. Following the lore and films Smaug has an impenetrable armor, it is practically impossible to fear him with normal weapons. Since this interpretation would be unbalance in game, it is impossible to implementi it as it is.              Anyhow, the player must have (at least) more chances to survive against rains of arrows. Therefore i decided for that increasing of armor at level five. 
The dragon will have two different animation in flight and on the ground like in 3.8.1 (Drogoth+Summoned dragon).
As for the fire related abilities: i don’t think fireball and fireflies fits very well with a dragon.  These type of attack are more related to wizard, which are able to create such particular form of fire attack using magic. In particular we have these two abilities just implemented via Gandalf (Dwarves) and Saruman . I will explain better all the details below in the skill-set.

Smaug skill-set in flight.
Basic attack like fellbeast and eagles.
Rank 1 : "Landing" – as usual.
Rank 1: “Incinerate” – the power is no more at level 10 and so nerfed, it will be something more effective against unit, as a first mass-slayer area of effect ability, like for example is wizard blast for Gandalf and Saruman. The animation of course will remain the same of Drogoth. Personally i think Smaug deserves some more devasting power for the last level.
Rank 3:  “Roar of the Beast” – the fearsome roar of the Golden one makes the enemy flee in terror.
Rank 5: “Impenetrable amour (passive)” – quoting Tolkien, “my armor is like tenfold shields”. Smaug permanently gains +50% armour against arrows.
Rank 7: “Wings like an hurricane” – Smaug uses his massive wings to create an air blast that knock back units in a wide radius dealing also medium damage.
Rank 10: “I’m fire, I’m death” – like we seen in the scenes of BOTFA during the attack of Lake Town, Smaug sets fire on the ground while flying, burning everything in a hell of fire. The crucial point of this last ability is the animation. The most fitting to resamble what we have seen in the movie, is the Dragon Strike attack. Supposing the power will be removed of the spellbook of MM of course. Just imagine this beautiful animation given to Smaug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTynrCcWYS0


Smaug skill-set on the ground
Now the basic melee attack of Smaug is fire as in 3.8.1. 
Rank 1 : “Flying “– as usual.
Rank 1: "Dragon Breath": a fire attack very effective against gates. Smaug’s Firebreath opens Gates and even burns garrisoned units. I simply copied the one presented so far by the team but i make it active and not passive. Same animation of the basic fire attack. Also the flames of Firedrakes from vanilla game are very good but probably is difficut to adapt such animation to a bigger model like the one of Smaug.
Rank 3:  “Roar of the Beast” – same as in flight.
Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive)” – The desire of gold and treasures makes Smaug very greedy. He collects resources from fallen enemies and destroyed buildings. I think a similar ability is necessary to capture his greedy character.
Rank 7: “My Claws are Spears” – Smaug uses his legs and claws to smash the enemy units. For 30 seconds he can trample the masses swatting all on his path (just think about the amazing scenes in which he enters into Erebor).
Rank 10: “Hypnotic Gaze” – also this ability is something presented by the ET years ago. I don’t know what exactly  means this ability (there’s no description). My interpretation is something related to the evil face of Smaug and his serpentine and powerful voice: the effect of his gaze and voice immobilizes enemy heroes and weaken them. (the particular scene in which his words penetrate the mind of Bilbo that takes off the ring ). This last ability if rewoked well (mine is very raw) could capture his character as evil,smart and speaking dragon.

THE GRAPHICS

I have not yet a clear idea about the palantirs of the different powers. Of course the most must be inspired by the hobbit movies in my opinion. I'm quite critic about some horrid things seen in the movies, but not for Smaug which is well succeeded in any aspect. However i will stick to the classic four legs dragons which is more lore-loyal and it avoids animation problem. The model by Aotr is the best example:

I would change only the colors, in favour of a more bright red like this miniature of gw:

But is a matter of personal tastes
Let me know what is your ideal Smaug for Edain 4.0 and what would you change about him 

[Secret Keeper]

This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.

I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.

[Julio229]

Hello Fellows of Modding union ;
Since there are a lot of discussions  around the mighty Smaug, i decided to present my general (for now very raw) idea of my "ideal Smaug". Take it in the spirit of this thread: discussion and speculation no more than that (at least since MM faction will be near ). Feel free to give your own opinion about anything related to the concept of the future Smaug and what you like/don't like about mine (i repeat in general is a first raw idea without many details):

SMAUG THE GOLDEN : MY PERSONAL CONCEPT
First of all i want to make a clarification : this whole concept has been made with the spirit of the thread itself. It is not something to present (we are  still far from MM) but only to speculate and discuss and, eventually, to take as a source of inspiration for future concepts.
I decided to focus the attention to the three fundamental aspect of the mighty dragon :
-   He’s a very powerful weapon
-   He’s greedy
-   He’s very smart
Possible initial statistic values of the dragon :
-   recriutment cost : 5500.
-   Initial HP : 12000.
-   Population cost: 30 (like other heroes).
-   Initial melee attack value: 300.
-   Type of melee attack: AOE.
The core of my concept.
Initially the Greatest Calamity of Middle Earth will have a weakness against arrows while flying, but with an increasing of the armor at level five. Following the lore and films Smaug has an impenetrable armor, it is practically impossible to fear him with normal weapons. Since this interpretation would be unbalance in game, it is impossible to implementi it as it is.              Anyhow, the player must have (at least) more chances to survive against rains of arrows. Therefore i decided for that increasing of armor at level five. 
The dragon will have two different animation in flight and on the ground like in 3.8.1 (Drogoth+Summoned dragon).
As for the fire related abilities: i don’t think fireball and fireflies fits very well with a dragon.  These type of attack are more related to wizard, which are able to create such particular form of fire attack using magic. In particular we have these two abilities just implemented via Gandalf (Dwarves) and Saruman . I will explain better all the details below in the skill-set.

Smaug skill-set in flight.
Basic attack like fellbeast and eagles.
Rank 1 : "Landing" – as usual.
Rank 1: “Incinerate” – the power is no more at level 10 and so nerfed, it will be something more effective against unit, as a first mass-slayer area of effect ability, like for example is wizard blast for Gandalf and Saruman. The animation of course will remain the same of Drogoth. Personally i think Smaug deserves some more devasting power for the last level.
Rank 3:  “Roar of the Beast” – the fearsome roar of the Golden one makes the enemy flee in terror.
Rank 5: “Impenetrable amour (passive)” – quoting Tolkien, “my armor is like tenfold shields”. Smaug permanently gains +50% armour against arrows.
Rank 7: “Wings like an hurricane” – Smaug uses his massive wings to create an air blast that knock back units in a wide radius dealing also medium damage.
Rank 10: “I’m fire, I’m death” – like we seen in the scenes of BOTFA during the attack of Lake Town, Smaug sets fire on the ground while flying, burning everything in a hell of fire. The crucial point of this last ability is the animation. The most fitting to resamble what we have seen in the movie, is the Dragon Strike attack. Supposing the power will be removed of the spellbook of MM of course. Just imagine this beautiful animation given to Smaug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTynrCcWYS0


Smaug skill-set on the ground
Now the basic melee attack of Smaug is fire as in 3.8.1. 
Rank 1 : “Flying “– as usual.
Rank 1: "Dragon Breath": a fire attack very effective against gates. Smaug’s Firebreath opens Gates and even burns garrisoned units. I simply copied the one presented so far by the team but i make it active and not passive. Same animation of the basic fire attack. Also the flames of Firedrakes from vanilla game are very good but probably is difficut to adapt such animation to a bigger model like the one of Smaug.
Rank 3:  “Roar of the Beast” – same as in flight.
Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive)” – The desire of gold and treasures makes Smaug very greedy. He collects resources from fallen enemies and destroyed buildings. I think a similar ability is necessary to capture his greedy character.
Rank 7: “My Claws are Spears” – Smaug uses his legs and claws to smash the enemy units. For 30 seconds he can trample the masses swatting all on his path (just think about the amazing scenes in which he enters into Erebor).
Rank 10: “Hypnotic Gaze” – also this ability is something presented by the ET years ago. I don’t know what exactly  means this ability (there’s no description). My interpretation is something related to the evil face of Smaug and his serpentine and powerful voice: the effect of his gaze and voice immobilizes enemy heroes and weaken them. (the particular scene in which his words penetrate the mind of Bilbo that takes off the ring ). This last ability if rewoked well (mine is very raw) could capture his character as evil,smart and speaking dragon.

THE GRAPHICS

I have not yet a clear idea about the palantirs of the different powers. Of course the most must be inspired by the hobbit movies in my opinion. I'm quite critic about some horrid things seen in the movies, but not for Smaug which is well succeeded in any aspect. However i will stick to the classic four legs dragons which is more lore-loyal and it avoids animation problem. The model by Aotr is the best example:

I would change only the colors, in favour of a more bright red like this miniature of gw:

But is a matter of personal tastes
Let me know what is your ideal Smaug for Edain 4.0 and what would you change about him 

I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".

The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.

This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.

I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.

I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. Monsters are such an integral part of the BFME experience, and MM represents (at least for me) the faction where the biggest monster threats should be. Smaug is also so iconic, probably the most iconic aspect of The Hobbit, and I feel like it would be wasting his potential not to have him as a regular Hero.

[AulëTheSmith]

This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.

I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.

It is not so unpopular actually Just look at the BOTTA mod Smaug for example. Anyway i prefer to stick to my idea as permanent hero: i like powerful summoned heroes too, like Balrog for example, but i think in case of Smaug we have to make him recruitable in order to not waste such a great potential. He's a complex character to be a monster, and i think is worthy to be reworked as a new permanent hero.

Monsters in general have some intrisic defects, but currently i like very much how the team reworked them (expecially trolls and ents) in 4.0 with respect to 3.8.1. There will be always a margin of improvement even for monsters 

I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".

Not only that but also for the other abilities we have a lot of sound material from Benedict voice (for level 10 : "i am fire,i am death " so epic would be  ).

The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.

Didn't know about this problem. Now that i think how the AI usually work is quite logic: it usually wastes constantly resources to train masses of unit, so probably wouldn't recruit such an expensive hero. Some task system would be fitting combined with an initial cost of 3000. I like this idea   
In fact i proposed that 5500 as an initial value to start the debate, without thinking about restrictions if not the high cost itself.

[Odysseus]

If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.

[AulëTheSmith]

If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.

Me too man  as I wrote a brighter red wouldn't be so bad. For the rest is perfect. It's simply the model I always dream for Edain mod. A perfect match between Drogoth body and Smaug shape.

[Walküre]

As Julio rightly pointed out, heroes can't cost more than 3000 resources. A sort of rule that we may not defy. It's thus imperative that values be confined within that range. Also, if I remember correctly, there are gameplay-related reasons for that choice, given that the Edain Team didn't want to make any hero that expensive (and therefore effective), as it would happen in the previous chapters of the Mod's history. The 4.0 era is generally more focused on coordinating the different characteristics of each faction and on finding a holistic strategy (rather than relying too much on single features).

Regarding Smaug's design, I doubt that the AOTR Team would gladly agree with sharing such precious model, and I would totally understand their decision. We're not talking about a general unit or other secondary characters; I think their own version of Smaug is really the prime jewel of their own vision and impressive gallery, and every project is probably supposed to retain its own unique elements. Reversing the reasoning, it would just be like the Edain Team sharing their central subfaction-system of the Misty Mountains with another project. This consideration of mine is obviously set aside from the fact that I too would love to see that amazing concept in the game; hopefully, the current model will be overhauled or the Edain Team will create another anew (though extremely difficult it might turn out to be).

Feel nonetheless welcome to develop the discussion further, since we get closer and closer to the Misty Mountains with each day passing, even if that is a quite slow process

[Darkayah]

If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.

I think the Smaug from Edain is good enough and detailed. I like this one more that the one from AOTR.

[AulëTheSmith]

As Julio rightly pointed out, heroes can't cost more than 3000 resources. A sort of rule that we may not defy. It's thus imperative that values be confined within that range. Also, if I remember correctly, there are gameplay-related reasons for that choice, given that the Edain Team didn't want to make any hero that expensive (and therefore effective), as it would happen in the previous chapters of the Mod's history. The 4.0 era is generally more focused on coordinating the different characteristics of each faction and on finding a holistic strategy (rather than relying too much on single features).

Regarding Smaug's design, I doubt that the AOTR Team would gladly agree with sharing such precious model, and I would totally understand their decision. We're not talking about a general unit or other secondary characters; I think their own version of Smaug is really the prime jewel of their own vision and impressive gallery, and every project is probably supposed to retain its own unique elements. Reversing the reasoning, it would just be like the Edain Team sharing their central subfaction-system of the Misty Mountains with another project. This consideration of mine is obviously set aside from the fact that I too would love to see that amazing concept in the game; hopefully, the current model will be overhauled or the Edain Team will create another anew (though extremely difficult it might turn out to be).

Feel nonetheless welcome to develop the discussion further, since we get closer and closer to the Misty Mountains with each day passing, even if that is a quite slow process

Thanks Diewalk as I can see a lot of people care very much about this argument.
About the cost I understand the point: the idea of certain tasks (e.g. The treasure cave at level 3 and others) to be completed beside a 3000 cost is very good and balance and it avoids to concentrate all the cost in the cost of the hero himself.
What I don't want to see, first of all, is a cheap Smaug but very weak. In name of balance I agree arrows are the only weapon to beat him in flight,  but we have to find a right middle point between extremely weak (I mean when he encounters a group of archers he's slayed in a second)  and extremely strong. An increase of armor in the middle (level 5) just like other heroes in edain, would be perfect in my opinion . An edain current example? Well trolls are a good example. A fully upgraded level 5 troll of Mordor is more effective against arrows with respect to previous versions of the game.
On the ground Smaug would be more weak  against heroes and pikes (but not so much like other monsters, damn, we are talking about a dragon  !!).

I think the Smaug from Edain is good enough and detailed. I like this one more that the one from AOTR.

Edain 4 deserves something more in my opinion. Anyway Of course we cannot force Aotr to give us their model. But is a good example of a 4 legs Smaug.
As a starting point, why not reshape the current Smaug? The summoned dragon from vanilla (from which he comes from) has a more "serpentine" aspect and animation with respect to Drogoth. Starting from this Edain would create a unique and epic model too. I like the red color of the current Smaug:

[Secret Keeper]

Smaug from 3.8.1 is really not bad, small tweaking and he is good to go IMO. Important think is to find him a good place in MM faction, as he doesn't belong to them (lore-wise) so much.

Back to Aules idea: I like your proposal about abilities, fit's perfectly. I would change Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive) - I hope that ET will keep scavenger spell in MM spellbook and thus it will overlap. A small change and it's perfect.

[Garlodur]

I also agree that the design is really of secondary importance after the release of the faction. There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique. After all, they have chosen designs that were not directly implemented from the movie because they did not like those interpretations (thinking of Beorn and Grimbeorn here) so it may be they already find their 3.8.1 model good enough.

If at some point in the far future they feel inspired to take on this project they will have good reasons for it. But for now I don't see it necessary to wait for MM longer because some people want a new Smaug model.

[AulëTheSmith]

Back to Aules idea: I like your proposal about abilities, fit's perfectly. I would change Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive) - I hope that ET will keep scavenger spell in MM spellbook and thus it will overlap. A small change and it's perfect.

Oh yes you are right. In case of overlapping we have to think another effect of dragon sickness. A brief alternative:
Rank 5 "Dragon Sickness (passive)": the desire of gold and treasures makes Smaug very greedy, he steals resources wherever he goes. All the enemy structures in a medium range produces -30% resources.

This is probably more fitting. Because the greedy of Smaug make him selfish and he doesn't share his treasure with anyone else. So it is better a weakening of the enemy economy rather than an increasing of your own resources 

I also agree that the design is really of secondary importance after the release of the faction. There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique. After all, they have chosen designs that were not directly implemented from the movie because they did not like those interpretations (thinking of Beorn and Grimbeorn here) so it may be they already find their 3.8.1 model good enough.

If at some point in the far future they feel inspired to take on this project they will have good reasons for it. But for now I don't see it necessary to wait for MM longer because some people want a new Smaug model.

I agree graphics is not as I mportant as concept. I'm anyway sure the team is able to fuse the best element of their Smaug and the movies model to create something unique Just as they did with Beorn and Grimbeorn. They look far better than 3.8.1 in my opinion