Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

[NoldorSithLordsShipwright]

Given the "picked up" and worn out nature of the troll's weapons, I think any weapons it uses should be abilities.

Toggle Melee/Rock Throw
Chain whip: high knockback AoE, single use ability
Hammer/Tree Trunk: high damage AoE, timed ability, mutually exclusive with trident
Trident: high damage single target, timed ability, mutually exclusive with hammer

I also have a proposal regarding Smaug, but I'm thinking I wait 'till we finish this line of conversation.

[Walküre]

Too much weapon choice could be counter-productive for the purpose, given the natural scarcity of forged mighty weapons that belong to the Goblins. In my opinion, that pick-up motive could be given life by means of a temporary ability, via which the troll picks up the trident and hits the target; according to the film, that trident was not a possession of the beast, and so implementing it as a toggle option might go against this relevant aspect.

[Julio229]

I like the option of making the trident temporary, as a brief switch in the Troll's role, but I'd say it should only be available with the requirement of Bolg or the Moria Chieftain.

[AulëTheSmith]

I agree with the idea of a temporary ability not as toggle weapon. I misused the term "switch". I can exclude the chain, mine was an example to better understand that the improvisation is an intrinsic characteristic of the cave trolls , at least concerning the movie . Julio I'm not so convinced to link the ability to Bolg. Because we cannot call it exactly an "upgrade" (as for example happen with the trolls of Mordor).

guys, As off-topic, but related to MM as well. Speaking about my personal taste, the design of Giants from vanilla is a bit weird, in my vision they need a rework. I just think the same about half troll, and if I'm not wrong the team removed them and also the spider riders because they don't fit for the new MM faction (totally agree with that).
Maybe I'm I too sticked with the traditional form of mountain Giants, the original one coming from Norse mythology (The Jötunn race). There is very little amount of material from the Tolkien's lore about this matter. Ah, just to make it clear from the start: no stone Giants from the movies, I agree they don't fit.

[Walküre]

I'm glad that a temporal ability sounds as a good solution. Even though I'm not particularly certain that binding this feature with something else would be appropriate. It is still supposed to be a loose possibility of the troll, isn't it?

[Julio229]

Seems fair, it is the decision of the troll after all

I think at least a level requirement should be good, to have that ability sort of come from the troll's improved ability to use whatever he can (more intelligence, I guess?). I'd be fine if it didn't have requirements, though, it's more about the options this can give to the player and the aspects of the Misty Mountains it reflects.

[AulëTheSmith]

I think at least a level requirement should be good, to have that ability sort of come from the troll's improved ability to use whatever he can (more intelligence, I guess?). I'd be fine if it didn't have requirements, though, it's more about the options this can give to the player and the aspects of the Misty Mountains it reflects.

I think a level requirement could be a good compromise. When the trolls rise up in rank they become more "intelligent" (so to say  ).

P.s: Guys i apologize if i interrupted the discussion with the issue of giants design, the fact is that for now this is the only place where i can post my thoughts about MM. I'm also curious, am i the only one who don't like so much the vanilla interpretation?

[Julio229]

I think at least a level requirement should be good, to have that ability sort of come from the troll's improved ability to use whatever he can (more intelligence, I guess?). I'd be fine if it didn't have requirements, though, it's more about the options this can give to the player and the aspects of the Misty Mountains it reflects.

I think a level requirement could be a good compromise. When the trolls rise up in rank they become more "intelligent" (so to say  ).

P.s: Guys i apologize if i interrupted the discussion with the issue of giants design, the fact is that for now this is the only place where i can post my thoughts about MM. I'm also curious, am i the only one who don't like so much the vanilla interpretation?

I quite like the vanilla Giant interpretation, but a Jötunn-esque interpretation would be cool, of course, and it would remind me of AoM so much I'd prefer the team to release the faction first and then decide if they want to change the unit, though, as it would require making a new model, texture and such.

[AulëTheSmith]

I quite like the vanilla Giant interpretation, but a Jötunn-esque interpretation would be cool, of course, and it would remind me of AoM so much I'd prefer the team to release the faction first and then decide if they want to change the unit, though, as it would require making a new model, texture and such.

Yes in fact i love the models from Aom. Of course that type of model would need a a bit of restyle to fit best with the goblins. They are always children of Morgoth(even if is not so clear in the books), so they must have some so to say "horrid" elements in the design.
Moreover we cannot forget the model must be also fitting with some animation (ents, or giants themselves) just present in game. To be sincere i also love the concept of Game of Thrones giants. There are some canonical elements (like the beard for example), which must be present in a giant model, at least in my vision .
 Let's see what the Goblins' storm will bring in the future 

[Walküre]

Ok, I find the idea of a requirement sound in principle. Maybe with the reaching of level 3?

Speaking about giants, I need make up my mind a bit. It's not that I would strictly stick to the vanilla interpretation, but I also find it hard to conceive another fitting solution. Mountain Giants from Age of Mythology look quite too much sophisticated for the context, whereas I always pictured giant-like creatures in Arda as hideous as trolls: not with a humanoid appearance (not too much, I mean) and with the usual repugnant characterisation. There's also the other typical wilderness factor that the current model embraces well, albeit being outdated. Anyway, should proposals arise, I would be definitely interested in following the debate

[AulëTheSmith]

Ok, I find the idea of a requirement sound in principle. Maybe with the reaching of level 3?

Speaking about giants, I need make up my mind a bit. It's not that I would strictly stick to the vanilla interpretation, but I also find it hard to conceive another fitting solution. Mountain Giants from Age of Mythology look quite too much sophisticated for the context, whereas I always pictured giant-like creatures in Arda as hideous as trolls: not with a humanoid appearance (not too much, I mean) and with the usual repugnant characterisation. There's also the other typical wilderness factor that the current model embraces well, albeit being outdated. Anyway, should proposals arise, I would be definitely interested in following the debate

I'm aware that the current model is anyway "wild" in his nature, but also a bit "cartoonish" and out of date imo. Aom giant is in fact impossible to insert as it is, is too much "humanoid" as you said, to fit with the goblins. But I like some canonical elements of tradition as I wrote, and a good model that is a match of the two vision would be fantastic the Edain team is the best especially in creating good compromise design
Anyhow guys, let's concentrate on other recent topic and sorry again for my parenthesis 

[Walküre]

The problem is that I can't seem to find many analogies between the two interpretations of the giant itself, nor possible scopes for the mountain giant being the inspiration for a new model. If we also consider the vision of WETA and the cinematographic continuum in representing troll/giant-like creatures, I don't really think that the motive of Age of Mythology should be transposed in the Edain Mod even slightly. It's just that I don't deem it a proper ground on which we might construct something innovative.

[Julio229]

I think I agree with that, just taking the AoM depiction (even though it'd be a fun nod) wouldn't work, and a Middle-Earth Giant should be like Walk said: Have a troll-like appearance, and I can't imagine a middle ground either. I'd like it if something new was done, but the vanilla depiction is also great (and evokes nostalgia) for me.

A bit off-topic maybe, but, one of the things that interested me the most was that AoM nod, it is one of my favourite games, and I always like seeing its influence in things. Erestor's system in 4.4, for example, has always reminded me of the Egyptian Pharaoh's resource-earning and buildtimes enhancement, a stationary and temporary version of it or something

[Walküre]

A right path to follow could be the attempt to adjust the vanilla concept by following the canons of WETA. Restoring the good and old tradition of Orcs and trolls: hideous, repulsive and totally gruesome

That's a smart thought! The kernel of that feature is indeed very akin to the pharaoh's blessing. Alas, the current ability is also flawed and, by consequence, the issue of replicas of the same hero in different castles is still persisting. Just like the New Realm upgrade of the Egyptians, that allows the player to play with two pharaohs at the same time

[AulëTheSmith]

That's a smart thought! The kernel of that feature is indeed very akin to the pharaoh's blessing. Alas, the current ability is also flawed and, by consequence, the issue of replicas of the same hero in different castles is still persisting. Just like the New Realm upgrade of the Egyptians, that allows the player to play with two pharaohs at the same time

Weta is the best path to follow. It's the origin of everything from the movies . I'm sure we can find a very good solution, that matches different views, without abandoning the wild, gruesome and horrid aspect . In fact what i do not like about the old design is that hump too pronounced and that long neck. Last but not least also the texture, if you look at the face / muzzle is not so good:

A bit off-topic maybe, but, one of the things that interested me the most was that AoM nod, it is one of my favourite games, and I always like seeing its influence in things. Erestor's system in 4.4, for example, has always reminded me of the Egyptian Pharaoh's resource-earning and buildtimes enhancement, a stationary and temporary version of it or something

Good comparison Julio, very fitting . If you do not mind guys this is the best Pharaon:

I don't actually know how many enemies can hit with a single strike