Concerning Barricades and Nazgul Upgrades

[Hamanathnath]

Hello Everyone

With 4.3.1, Barricade was replaced with Sauron's Deadliest Servants, which allows the Nazgul to receive their upgrades.  This change was made because there were bugs that occurred when the Nazgul Upgrades were acquired when you used Influence of Sauron on the Citadel.

Now I see the point of why this change was made, however, it completely removed on of Mordor's Spellbook powers for something that they technically already had.  Also, I feel as if Sauron's Deadliest Servants is too good of a Spellbook power to not get early on, because it really helps out the Nazgul. 

So the suggestion is to put Barricade back into the Spellbook, and make the Nazgul upgrades available once Sauron reaches level 5.  I think this is a better way to implement the Nazgul Upgrades because, in my opinion, they are always a priority to get as soon as possible due to how useful they are.  It will also allow the Barricade Spellbook power to still be in the game.  I also think this will not make Nazgul Upgrades too easy to get because it is hard to get Sauron to level 5 very quickly, and you would still need to pay for the Upgrades.

I would love to hear feedback on this idea.

Greetings, Hamanathnath

[Lord of Mordor]

The bugs were not the only reason. We also felt the Barricade was not necessarily something Mordor should have. It's a powerful defensive structure, which fits very well with Gondor and the Dwarves, but much less with Mordor. For offensive battlefield power, they still have the very good Shelob spell. I actually like that they have one less powerful early thing they can summon onto the battlefield and can make a different strategic choice to upgrade their heroes instead.

[Odysseus]

+1 to LoM.
Nazgul do not specifically need their armour, even though it is very useful indeed. I think it could be interesting to split the Ring Hunter and armour upgrades, so that people have some extra incentive to go for the Fellbeasts and make the deadliest servants power harder to choose from in tier 2 with the other powers, but that's just me.

[The_Necromancer0]

I'm okay with the barricade being deleted but however the issue that I have is more towards the fact that spell point need to be spent on getting the upgrade in addition to money. Spell points that can be critical in certain situations. So I was thinking that that either we follow Hamanathnath suggestions about the level 5. Or that it could be made into an active power which can be used to upgrade the Nazgul kind of like Power of Past Ages. This I believe would be more of an incentive for people to get it and provide more utility. My second idea would be that it provide somewhat of a boost to some aspect of the outposts such as defense or recruitement speed. Or maybe drop it to 2pp both to balance and to regain some spellbook symmetry.

[Hamanathnath]

The bugs were not the only reason. We also felt the Barricade was not necessarily something Mordor should have. It's a powerful defensive structure, which fits very well with Gondor and the Dwarves, but much less with Mordor. For offensive battlefield power, they still have the very good Shelob spell. I actually like that they have one less powerful early thing they can summon onto the battlefield and can make a different strategic choice to upgrade their heroes instead.

Well it helps to know that the choice was not just to fix bugs.  The problem I have is though, is that Barricade was completely removed for something Mordor already had.  And also, now Influence of Sauron can't be used on the Citadel, which in my opinion, is kinda a waste because something useful could be put there.

I'm not saying that Barricade is the only thing that could come back.  I would just like to see something that could replace either the Citadel spot for Influence of Sauron, or the Spellbook spot Barricade left.  And I came up with an Idea that, at least in my opinion, solves that.  Because removing Barricade and replacing it with something Mordor already could do was a direct nerf to Mordor that isn't compensated at all.

[Golem]

I'd suggest that the arrow volley would be replaced with barricade. Arrow Volley as it is now is one of the most useless powers in the game and if it would be switch for the barricade I feel like it'd then encourage people to go up the right side of the spell book as well

[Odysseus]

Wut? Mordor has arguably the best arrow volley in the game, and it grealy weakens enemy blobs. I find this a very useful power if the enemy goes extensive on the spam.

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

Wut? Mordor has arguably the best arrow volley in the game, and it grealy weakens enemy blobs. I find this a very useful power if the enemy goes extensive on the spam.

+1

[Hamanathnath]

Wut? Mordor has arguably the best arrow volley in the game, and it grealy weakens enemy blobs. I find this a very useful power if the enemy goes extensive on the spam.

I agree with this.  It is very good early on against all the factions, especially Mordor and Angmar.  It's the best Arrow Volley in the game in my opinion, because it does more damage if you can land all the Volleys. 

Back on topic, the point of this suggestion is to fill in the empty spot left on the citadelwhen the Nazgul Upgrades went the Spellbook, or make the Nazgul upgrades available in another way, having another Spellbook slot for another spell (possibly Barricade, but something new is always welcome). 

[Elite KryPtik]

Hello Everyone

With 4.3.1, Barricade was replaced with Sauron's Deadliest Servants, which allows the Nazgul to receive their upgrades.  This change was made because there were bugs that occurred when the Nazgul Upgrades were acquired when you used Influence of Sauron on the Citadel.

Now I see the point of why this change was made, however, it completely removed on of Mordor's Spellbook powers for something that they technically already had.  Also, I feel as if Sauron's Deadliest Servants is too good of a Spellbook power to not get early on, because it really helps out the Nazgul. 

So the suggestion is to put Barricade back into the Spellbook, and make the Nazgul upgrades available once Sauron reaches level 5.  I think this is a better way to implement the Nazgul Upgrades because, in my opinion, they are always a priority to get as soon as possible due to how useful they are.  It will also allow the Barricade Spellbook power to still be in the game.  I also think this will not make Nazgul Upgrades too easy to get because it is hard to get Sauron to level 5 very quickly, and you would still need to pay for the Upgrades.

I would love to hear feedback on this idea.

Greetings, Hamanathnath

+1

[d0m0a]

Completely true. I admit that for Mordor, the only defensive building that can be useful for defend some posts is the barricade, alongside the fact that I can summon it during a battle for annoy the enemy more.

In this mod, the Barricade has turned into the only defensive building that can be useful for defend settlements or outposts.

But if the team decides to not use put it back on the spell-book, maybe give that power to a  hero, like Theodred on Rohan.

[Gandalf7000]

But if the team decides to not use put it back on the spell-book, maybe give that power to a  hero, like Theodred on Rohan.

And then It won't be uniqueness of Theodred in the mod.

[Leri_weill]

But if the team decides to not use put it back on the spell-book, maybe give that power to a  hero, like Theodred on Rohan.

And then It won't be uniqueness of Theodred in the mod.

You've got like, 3000 heros in-game; I wouldn't be bothered if two shared a similar power like that... But I'd better like the barricade back in the spell book ^^

[Gandalf7000]

But if the team decides to not use put it back on the spell-book, maybe give that power to a  hero, like Theodred on Rohan.

And then It won't be uniqueness of Theodred in the mod.

You've got like, 3000 heros in-game; I wouldn't be bothered if two shared a similar power like that... But I'd better like the barricade back in the spell book ^^

What I mean is that Nazgul don't need such a power: they are Unit Interferes and Debuff. I rather see it in the place of Shelob in the spellbook, but she is too important to remove.

[Hamanathnath]

I think we are all forgetting that the point of this thread was that Barricade was removed with no real replacement.  The Nazgul Upgrades are something Mordor already had.

But what's the difference if Barricade replaces Shelob or Arrow Volley or a Hero Ability?  Then that power is replaced with something Mordor already had, leaving the same problem.

I do somewhat agree with the Edain Team that Barricade isn't the most fitting power for Mordor, but removing it without a true replacement is, as I've said, a direct nerf to Mordor as a whole.

[Odysseus]

Which is perhaps what the team intended from the get go with this change.

Mordor has too long been the easiest and most powerful faction to play. Now, the faction is becoming more in line with the other factions. I think Mogat showed quite nicely in the LPS cup that Mordor can still quite easily stand up for itself and that such a nerf really doesn't mean that much. The Orc nerf is more significant in that regard.

Now, the new way it is implemented is mostly to fix bugs and technical issues, as you know. However, it is perhaps not ideally implemented. I suggest you come up with ideas to improve it. For instance, the armour costs could be decreased to compensate. Or the Ring Hunter could be reduced in cost instead. These would help ease the burden a bit.

[Hamanathnath]

I agree with pretty much everything you say Odysseus, but it is not like Mordor didn't get any nerfs outside removing Barricade.  They have received plenty of changes in the last 2 updates which made them more in line with the other factions.

Now I do agree that reducing the cost of the Nazgul upgrades, especially Ring Hunter, could be a way to compensate for the removal of the Barricade.   But I'd rather see something be added as a bonus if you do use Influence of Sauron on a Citadel, if possible without bugs occurring. 

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

As already explained: Its not possible.

[Hamanathnath]

Well then, I support slightly reducing the cost of the Nazgul Upgrades.

Sorry if the way I argue has frustrated anyone.  It is not my intention.  I just would like to see this mod be as balanced as it could possibly be, and I'm pretty passionate about that

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

No problem at all. Great to see so much enthusiasm around here.

[-DJANGO-]

I highly recommand to test Mordor against older factions like Gondor or Isengard before drawing to early conclusions. AtM i personally like Mordor at lot, because now the Mordor player has to look out for his economy, like every other faction... In 4.21 that was not the case. So a simple price reduction to strengthen Mordor is really wrong here, in my opinion.
I agree that since the new Spell Power for the Nazugls, the other 3 Point Powers have become less significant. Given the fact that I dont like Spawn Towers at all, I'm happy that at least Mordor lost his tower. Though i also like to see a Spell power that does not push the others back. But i think since the change was because of Bugs using Sauron on the citadel, i can understand the new power. What i dont understand is any price reductions for NAzguls because of "equalizing" the lost Spell Book Tower...
 

[Hamanathnath]

I won't argue against that Mordor are more balanced now, maybe slightly under power compared to other factions, but I won't make any conclusions unless we are talking about Mordor vs Angmar, where Angmar seems significantly better.

Well I think a price reduction to the Nazgul upgrades could work because the Spellbook Power is harder to get then a level 3 Sauron is.  Of course, this isn't something that is really that major, and I'll be fine if it is not implemented.

I also personally agree that the Nazgul Upgrades are too good to not go for as quickly as possible, but because of others have shown that they think it is balanced, I'm fine with it being a Spellbook power.

[Odysseus]

I agree that Mordor is in a fairer spot now, with less no-brainers. Although, Django, hear me out.

The reason why a small cost reduction for the Ring Hunter upgrade for Nazguls doesn't sound like such a bad idea, is exactly because of the importance of the armour unlock in the spellbook.

I think a small price reduction for the Ring Hunter upgrade would make it harder for the player to decide what to get first. As a result, the Ring Hunter unlock can better vie with the armour unlock. It will also nuance the straight nerfs that the Mordor mains have to swallow at the moment.

Nonetheless, I think we should soon move to the Gondor discussion section. Gondor won the LPS Cup hands down and has performed exceedingly well in the hands of the capable players, winning pretty much every matchup. The philosophy behind the tweaks that were applied to Mordor, should I think also soon be applied to Gondor.

Some of that is already on its way though . What exactly? Shhhh.

[Hamanathnath]

Well to be honest..... Gondor seems fine in my eyes.  We can't judge Gondor on their performance in the LPS cup, because not only was it in 4.2.1, but also with the LPS patch, which made a lot of changes. 

In 4.3.1, besides super uber OP Beregond , which I already made a post about, Gondor seems pretty well balanced.  The only things I can think of with them that might unbalanced are their Incredible Defensive Capabilities, and the randomness of the Signal Fire. 

I'm always up for some discussion, so If you think something is unbalanced, fell free to post about it, but, at least in my eyes, Gondor is balanced well enough.

[Ringgiver]

I have observed a problem with the 4.3.1 barricade change, when I go to upgrade Khamul with armor, it goes into the animation but as soon as the character model changes, the game crashes, has anyone else had this problem? None of the other Nazgul have this issue from my experience.

[Walküre]

I have observed a problem with the 4.3.1 barricade change, when I go to upgrade Khamul with armor, it goes into the animation but as soon as the character model changes, the game crashes, has anyone else had this problem? None of the other Nazgul have this issue from my experience.

I never had this issue. Nevertheless, it should be better if you reported this error in the Edain Support section, where you can get direct help from the Edain Team; also, you had better specify the precise context of this error (map, AI difficulty, graphical statistics,...) in order to help them tackle the problem better 

[Ringgiver]

Will do.