Make Dale great again!

[Fredius]

Greetings everyone ,

Today I want to bring to you two suggestions that me and LordDainIronfoot have been thinking about for quite some time. These suggestion will be centered around the units of Dale, or rather, the heavy armor upgrade and the banner carrier (captain) of Dale.

DISCLAIMER
We are not asking the team to do this in the next version! We know there are other priorities at the moment, and that are more urgent matters to attend to; we just offer the team an idea that they could use for in the future, if they ever want to use it at all !

Suggestion 1: Heavy armor
Now onto the first suggestion. I must say that the design of the Dale units look beautifull, though there is one aspect about the Heavy Armor upgrade that disturbs us. If you look closely at the Non-Heavy Armor version of the Dale soldier, you can see that there is a part of mail showing on the bottom of the skirt:

This image shows us that the Dale soldier wears a mail shirt beneath his regular leather armor. However if we look at the Heavy Armored version of the Dale soldier, we can see that he has cast off his leather armor, and solely wears the mail shirt:

The leather armor has been removed when the Heavy Armor upgrade is purchased, which means that the Men of Dale are even less armored after the Heavy Amor upgrade is purchased ! Dain and me have thought about some possibilities to give the heavy armored versions of the Dale units a nice and fitting design. What we found was a concept for the Dale warriors made by WETA, which will (in our opinion) fit perfectly:

Note that we are not proposing to use the helmet, but just the plate armor as shown in the concept art. This design will give the units of Dale an actual heavier armored version that fit in well with the regular armor, without sacrificing the leather armour they already wear . On the internet there are multiple artists who have drawn or modeled this version of the Dale armour, here are some more example pictures:

This ends the first suggestion.
________________________ ________________________ ___________________

Suggestion 2: Dale captain
The next suggestion is about the Captain of Dale, who, next to a regular warrior of Dale, looks like this:

Both me and Dain thought it would be very awesome if the captain would have a look that distinguishes him from the regular soldiers. He is a captain after all, and officers usually wear better and more expensive armor than the common footmen, just so that it is visible that they are from a higher rank in the military branch. Not to mention the fact that the captain of the Men of Lake-town clearly shows the difference between the regular soldier and the officer, while Dale does not. After discussing it a little while, me and Dain came up to a design that would give the captain a more “expensive” look. The captain would wear the heavy armor as was shown in the suggestion before, but combined with the helmet that is worn in this concept:

This helmet really appealed to us, and we saw it as a great solution to the captains helmet. The helmet, combined with the heavy armor (and a cape which is missing), looks like this, as made by the team of the Rise of Mordor mod:

This image, however, gives us another variant of the officers helmet, which is based on the Roman centurion helmet, and has a bigger brass than the helmet we proposed. Both helmets look great, and we like both equally.

This is where our proposals end. The reason that we wanted to do this proposals was that, first of all, the current heavy armor upgrade makes the Dale units look lighter armored than they used to before the upgrade. It would be like the Gondor soldiers starting with heavy armor, and after purchasing the heavy armor upgrade they would lose the plate and shoulder armor. This is ofcourse not very nice if you think about it .

The reason we wanted to change the captains design is so that his status compared to the regular footman is better reflected on his armor. Right now he looks exactly like the regular soldiers, save for being larger and having a bigger beard, which is funny because that was trait of chieftains of some barbarian tribes in the antiquity . Also the captain of the Men of Lake-town has plenty of differences with the common footman. Dale should have this too in our opinion .

I hope you guys agree with our proposal, please state here if you are in favor or against this suggestion, and please explain your motives . Ofcourse if you have any other ideas please share them .

With kind regards,

Fredius and LordDainIronfoot

[lordoflinks]

Wow...
I like this idea a lot and am entirely in favorwith it.

[VectorMaximus]

I really like the basic dale soldier's upgrade design, however I feel very iffy on the design of the captain's helm. While it would be very distinct, it just doesn't seem to fit for me, with the horizontal mane feeling awkward when I look at it. I feel like a design more along the lines of the helmet in this; . Obviously it would have to be reworked for Dale colors and accents, but I think it would fit. This is a period recreation Russian armor with a more unique and complex helmet design. Because of the fact that the Dale/Laketown designs in the movies are medieval Russia, I believe it would fit.
The captains would stick out, their faces being covered would make them identifiable from a distance, as well as affording the captains (generals as they are called in the mod) greater protection in battle, as they should by right of their rank. However, I am overall in favor of the proposal.

[Dendrotheos]

My thoughts are mainly in favour. I think your point on the heavy armour is a solid one. The images provided appear to show that heavily armoured Dale soldiers move from having a mail undercoat beneat the leather hawberk to the mail on-top of the hawberk, which would be superfluous in a combat situation.
The advantages of mail as heavy armour provides a nice visual aid to the player to indicate that heavy armour has been purchased, but if this were to be retained, I think that it would be more fitting to have both layers mail or remove the under-layer of mail for the model that is not heavily armoured.
Concerning the new heavy armour design proposal, I think it looks good. Your proposed design would make the dale troops look more imposing and potentially more dangerous. From an authentic and practical point of view, the concept appears to show the armour made from soft iron or boiled leather, which would actually not be nearly as affective as mail, but it certainly looks better than standard un-armoured leather jerkin.
To re-iterate, I think this would work well as a visual representation of heavy armour. I think the un-armoured version that ET has made certainly shouldn't change, however, as they have a destinct Edain look to it that makes it different to other mods and gives it a character separate to the films, while having the same feel. The current design does have a destinct feel to it that is unique to Edain, which is very good, but I agree some tweeks in the far future wouldn't go amiss.

Concerning the Dale captain, I'm going to agree with VectorMaximus; I'm not entirely convinced by the centurion helmet. The captain should certainly follow the heavy armour scheme and have some feature that disinguishes him from the normal soldiers, I agree, and a centurion helm gives off all the right connotations of command over a small company, but it does not appear, to me at least (I'm sure others will have a different view entirely), to quite fit with the same direction that was brought with the final Weta costumes. The Dale forces, and to the same extent the Lake Town troops, gave off a Slavic feel that was matched with the snowy and rustic wooden feel of Laketown in the trilogy, which does not quite mix well with Post-Marian reform Roman uniform. I'm not helping much here, I admit, but I think a bit more delving into Magyar or other Slavic helmet designs might be a bit for fitting here for the captain's helm.

These are just my thoughts and you're all welcome to rip apart my arguments and show that I haven't a clue what I'm talking about  I basically agree with your first suggestion, although I do think there is a side in support of the Edain's design even though there should be some changes, if only minor. Your second design is where I have slightly different views.

I'd say, overall, that i'm in favour of the proposal 

[Leri_weill]

Absolutely in favor of the Rise of Mordor design

[Garlodur]

I am definitely in favour of the first suggestion, because it makes the outfit have more sense. The mail should be visible before heavy armour is purchased, but after HA is purchased the soldier should wear more plated armour on the chest and belly, as well as showing the mail underneath.

The second suggestion about the helmet sounds great but I don't know if there is enough reason to take a Roman-style helmet because indeed it does not have much to do with the Russian style Weta went with: although I really like the helmet in the concept art, I feel it is difficult to not make it look like a centurion's helmet.
Perhaps a visor could be added to the existing helmet while the beard still shows underneath as a sign of distinction?

I want to add that there seems to ambiguity about the historical accuracy of the armour VectorMaximus posted. See this discussion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?323353-What-period-is-this-armor-from

[Radagast der Musikalische]

Just a little clarification:
It's not like they've taken off their leather tunic and are less armored. They simply wear a close-meshed chainmail armor over it, which is made by the blacksmiths of erebor. You can actually still see the leather tunic at the lower hem. The intention was to establish a connection to the fact that you produce the heavy armor in the dwarven forge.

This is not meant to restrain you from discuss the suggestion anyway!

[Fredius]

Hello people, first of all, many thanks for the appreciation and support !

Now, it is true that Lake town has many slavic influences on them, but this is not so much the case for Dale. Just look at Dale itself; it's architecture is based on the Italian Renaissance period, and the reason why the centurion helmet influences (note: these are just influences, not the centurion helmet itself) fit in so perfectly is BECAUSE of the Renaissance period. During the Renaissance (the Rebirth) the antiquity rose in popularity, and the Italian people began to value those ancient times again. The antiquity had influence on a lot of aspects in the daily lives of those people, like, for example, architecture, but also the armour of the military. Specifically for the helmets, what I noticed, when I learnt about these times in my history study, is that plums, feathers and brasses became populair to wear again. Look at these pictures for example:

What I like about the helmet which I showed in the suggestion, is that it reflects this Italian Renaissance period quite well. It's not exactly a centurion helmet, but the brasses are pretty much influenced by it. Don't forget that brasses are a trait of commanders, especially bigger ones . Also don't forget that Weta's armour is never influenced by just one culture, but it is a mixture of many, so using a fully Rus' helmet does not really fit into a design that is influenced by so many other cultures in my opinion. In any case these are just my two cents though, and I am glad you guys have so many ideas .

To Radagast der Musikalische; if you look closely at the skin, the position of the leather and the mail have been swapped. Look at the bottom of the skirts of both armours, the non-HA upgrade version shows mail on the bottom of the skirt, after the HA upgrade is purchased, the bottom of the skirt shows leather. Also, even if they did just get another mail shirt over their regular armor, wouldn't that be really uncomfortable? The layers would be distributed like this then:

Man->padding (to make the rest of the armour comfortable to wear)->mail->leather->mail.

Kinda uncomfy right ? Also mail is mail, doesnt matter how you wind it up, it won't give extra protection just because it's made by Dwarves.

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

To Radagast der Musikalische; if you look closely at the skin, the position of the leather and the mail have been swapped.

Well, Radagast is the one who created the dale soldiers. I think he knows how the textures looks like and whats the intention behind them.
And you have to keep in mind, that our "Dale" is not the one from the epilogue - its the one at the time of the lord of the rings, influenced by own interpretations.

[Fredius]

Ah sorry I didn't know that, I meant no disrespect ofcourse, it's great that the one who made the skin has actually commented here !

However we hope you understand our points Radagast, and we would love to if you would take this suggestion into consideration (ofcourse we're not forcing you!).

[Radagast der Musikalische]

Don't worry, I didn't take that as disrespect!
I mean, tastes differ and these threads are here to give you the opportunity of presenting your own ideas and opinions on subjects like this.

Ea was right of course: I know about the swap. In the heavy armor state, they wear longer leather tunics, but actually this swap has aesthetic reasons, because it looked dreary and on the other hand very peculiar with the different chainmails.

But you are wrong with statement that a mail is mail. Actually, the sturdiness of chainmails depends on numerous things. Thickness, material and shape of the single elements, the mesh density and of course the workmanship are possibly the most important amongst all. The one beneath the leather tunic is just a light mail with broad rings and small mesh density and therefore provides only a basic protection, whereas the top mail has a more angular shape and a very high density with another material as well.
Furthermore, the dwarves forging art is said to may only be outdone by the high elves of Gondolin. 

[Fredius]

Thanks for explaining your reasons for doing that "swap", I understand it now .

Ofcourse the sturdiness of the mail depends on different aspects, but why should the Men of Dale not be able to make their mail as high quality as the Dwarves? What I actually meant by that statement, is that you can only go so far with making a steel mail shirt as high in quality as possible. If, let's say, two top smiths of both races were handed over a piece of steel of great quality, then I'm pretty sure they would both make their mail about equally strong and sturdy, because at some point you cannot make it better.

However, swapping places or adding another layer of mail should, in my opinion, not define the heavy armor upgrade. Even if the mail is a bit stronger, it is still just mail, and unless there is some mithril inside of it (which I doubt because mithril is too rare for that ), it won't give that much extra protection. Adding another layer of mail to an already heavy equipment, will lower the fighting capabilities of the Man who wears it. That's why Dain and me proposed to have the leather armor be replaced by steel plates, because that would make the armor more comfortable to wear, but it also gives that extra bit of aesthetic beauty, which you did beautifully with the regular non-HA upgraded warrior, but the HA-upgraded warrior lacks in our opinion.

Also another small reason, the Dwarves themselves get Plate Armor when they are upgraded with HA, but the Dale soldiers do not. It's a bit unfair !

When I think about Dwarves "having the best forging art"; in my own interpretation I think of them being able to make magnificent artwork of metal, stone or whatever is presented to them. This means that they also, I believe, have the ability to turn precious metals, like mithril, into something as complicated as armor. This is not what Men are able to do. However, something like mail, which about every race can forge, should not, in my opinion, define the greatness of the Dwarven smiths; they are far greater than that . This is ofcourse just my interpretation about the fact that Dwarves are one of the best smiths of Middle-Earth .