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Autor Thema: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?  (Gelesen 7404 mal)

ThaneWulfgharn

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Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« am: 4. Mai 2016, 21:45 »
In the light of the Angmar Faction being released, I have started wondering if its style is or not in coherence with the general Lord of the Rings style. There are many elements who seem borrowed by other fantasy titles such as Warcraft, for example.

Angmar is one the faction with the fewest information (Lorewise speaking). We know of it but not it exactly. Part of it was inhabited by Men, according to the Tolkien Gateway they were thought to be somehow related to the Easterlings (but even that is not sure). Others assume that they were Black Numenoreans. Still, nothing is clear. However, gathering and organising certain points, we might actually come to imagine a much more lore-friendly Angmar.

The first, greatest mistake that the Angmar faction has inherited from its vanilla concept is the usage of Sorcerers. Curious about the role of magic in the Lord of the Rings, I opened Tolkien Gateway which is pretty much the wikipedia of the book and authentic Tolkien sources. I found this rather interesting except from one of Tolkien's Letters(Letter 155):
Zitat
"a difference between the use of 'magic' in this story [The Lord of the Rings] is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but it is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such."
So you do understand why I find Magic as used by Sorcerers quite disturbing, lorewise. The only known magic used by Angmar is the Witch-King's ability to raise the Barrow-Wights (and that is, luckily, quite achieved by your Barrow).

Furthermore, I oppose to the exaggerated use of Snow & Ice. It quite looks as if it were Warcraft. I would imagine Angmar as a faction in a semi-unnaturally dark and gloomy winter - a Mordor of Cold, cold and snowy aswell but more dead rather than truly white covered in snow. Maybe a little like Dunharrow. Something creepy, not Northrendish. Furthermore, Angmar means Home of Iron, so the lots of Iron we've seen in the Mordor style(architecture and units) would be fit for Angmar aswell (see below). (The atmosphere is highly related with unit design and architecture, so a more clear picture will be provided below).

Third - Angmar's Armies. Angmar's armies in vanilla RotWK were made of Thrall Masters who summoned either clansmen either orcs and then there were Black Numenoreans, Snow & Hill Trolls. Your system of Settlements covers perfectly the relation that Angmar forces and Rhudahur Hillmen had. To that, no objection. I wonder, however, whether the appearence of the Men of Carn Dum is quite "Correct". I understand that there is no Movie reference of how they would look like, BUT, an illustrator, John Howe, has some independent illustrations of the Mouth of Sauron, the Witch King of Angmar and the Black Numenoreans. These concept arts are not similiar to the movie depiction of the Witch King and Mouth of Sauron, but as you can notice, they are quite similiar to the Mordor Style in general. Thus they would make an excellent basis for the development of Carn Dum soldiers and Heroes.



Lastly, I would like to cover the topic of Architecture. There is absolutely no trace in Tolkien's works about the Architecture of Angmar, but we can build one. Where from? Well, starting first from its name Ang-mar (Home of Iron). That and the Iron element in Mordor's architecture in the film. Just see Morannon, Minas Morgul or Barad Dur to understand what I mean. Now, it has to be different to that of Mordor obviously, but then again, not too much. Also, the Fortress of Mount Gundabad in the Hobbit could be a reference. Mount Gundabad is, after all, part of Angmar. I expect them to be of dark-gray/black color (as Mordoric architecture is) and with of course some elements of Ice/Snow/Frost, but not too much - just enought to make it look creepier - not Northrend-ish. The other part, of course, I let to decide to the artist's freedom.

Here, I close my discourse, hoping I have transmitted my ideas clearly and made a quite convincing argument! Good luck with the mod!
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2016, 22:05 von ThaneWulfgharn »

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Mai 2016, 22:24 »
Greetings,

I believe the issue is exactly the lack of lore, which forced both EA and the Edain Team to fill all the blanks, gaps and holes for Angmar to become a fully fledged faction.

Since there is so little lore to work with, there is no real general guideline or a rulebook, so to speak. Thus, it comes down more to interpretation than actual lore or concept and people having different interpretations of the given information.

You could see this Angmar as ET's interpretation of the kingdom and what they made of all the bits and bobs that are given about Angmar in the lore.

However, I do agree with you that it is quite revulsing to see mortals casting magic like they are Ainur or Maiar, but alas, this is where Tolkien's lore has to make room for gameplay. Personally, I feel this is the only major inconsistency that is in both EA and ET's Angmar, but Sorcerer's are important to Angmar's gameplay and its concept as a faction. Furthermore, if your quote is to be taken most seriously, it can be said that Tolkien himself was inconsistent with the concept, with entities such as the Army of the Dead, and the Witch-King, whom where once mortals, but are under the influence of magic or able to utilise magic.

You could say that Angmar uses a distorted variant of magic, called sorcery. It's a little different, since ET wrote their own lore to fill in the blanks of Angmar. The concept of sorcery revolves around another crucial theme to Angmar, and that is sacrifice. The only reason sorcerers are able to cast their spells is because they sacrifice the life of human beings, or their essence, which is arguably part of their origin as Children of Illúvatar that has perhaps ''magical'' proportions. All the sorcerers that do not, have been taught sorcery by the Witch-King himself, which has a portion of Sauron's power imbued into him.

I liked your post and found it well written. However, these lore inconsistencies are quite necessary to bring the faction to a proper status comparable to the other factions. I understand where you are coming from, but I would like to say that you are perhaps a bit too critical.

I hope I brought my points across as well.

Kind regards,

Odysseus.
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Fredius

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #2 am: 4. Mai 2016, 23:43 »
Fully agree with Odysseus. We shouldn't always prioritize lore over gameplay; it's important that we leave some room for own interpretations, or else the team might even lose their motivation to mod the game if they MUST follow the lore guidelines and not use their own imagination :D.

As for the sorcerers; I don't like them either, because I agree that magic shouldn't be overused in the LOTR universe, so I myself just choose to never build the sorcerers, and it works out pretty well :).

Walküre

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #3 am: 5. Mai 2016, 02:30 »
I too agree with Odysseus and Fredius.
As 'painful' as it could be for our own lore sensitivity, there are some things that we just have to accept, provided that we have, on the other hand, a suitable concept that meets all the 'requirements' needed to be part of this quality-centred Mod. And, this is exactly the case of Angmar; you could never do without all the fictional elements of the faction so easily, and then hope to find all the answers and proper solutions in the lore (primarily, because the lore itself doesn't give us enough material to speculate on in the first place). Therefore, I appreciate so much all the efforts of the Edain Team that were exactly aimed to fill all the holes and flaws, as Odysseus says, concerning Angmar, while they nonetheless tried to respect lore boundaries as much as they could (especially in their detailed and consistent RPG concepts, I presume).

That said, and considered all the just premises mentioned above, my honest lore-based judgment about Magic and Sorcerers doesn't change: it's all a sort of 'abomination' (I apologise for the loaded word) of Tolkien's vision.
The whole sacrifice motive lying behind Angmar, albeit seeming to be a brilliant solution for the gameplay, is not justified and proven anywhere in the lore. The Witch King did gather in Angmar human beings with knowledge of black arts, and he is very likely to have taught them something more too, but this happened always in the clear limits of Human Magic and dark arts as well; arts that have always existed in Middle Earth, but everytime confined in their human and minor status, compared to the known and mightier Elven and Ainurin (mostly regarding the Istari and Sauron, in the Third Age) Magic. For example, I also think about that very smart scene in AUJ, although it was completely fictional, when Saruman dismisses Gandalf's thoughts about a Necromancer able to summon the dead, and when, at the same time, the very chief of the White Council shows his contempt for human magical dark arts (inferior and just a false reflection of the true Magic).


Not to mention that the very sacrifice theme works a bit in the opposite way in the lore. It often consists of a mighty leading figure, as Morgoth and Sauron, that weakens itself by spreading its own powers in the World and sharing them (sacrificing them) with its foul servants, in order to sustain and empower them (from the most authoritative lieutenant to the ordinary soldier). This is basically the main theme due to which the Nazgûl and the Mouth of Sauron are so bound to Sauron, and Mordor's gameplay and mechanics wonderfully embodies it. On the opposite side, I can't really recall any passage in which some magical beings had to use the vital energy of other weaker beings to cast and use Magic (as it happens in Angmar).

So, akin to Fredius, I almost never recruit Sorcerers if I can. Nevertheless, this was what I think about the strict lore and the current vision, and I obviously and deeply understand the Edain Team's purposes behind it. Thus, I would and could never try to slay or disown their great efforts in conceiving the holistic faction  ;)
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Saeros

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #4 am: 5. Mai 2016, 13:22 »
ThaneWulfgharn I'm with you and agree to everything you posted with the exception of the Angmar architecture, cause I think the Iron and the winter are pretty well interprented...
but I strongly believe too that Angmar is too EA-ish and less Tolkien- ish, while all the rest of the mod is exactly the opposite, and the actual reason it is so good.
I see everyone's point here, but especially the sorcerers are out of place, out of lore, and most importantly out of Middle- Earth, if something MUST change I think it's them.
I like the skins you posted about the Black Numenoreans, but I think that they will look too much like the Nazgul after they get their upgrades.

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #5 am: 5. Mai 2016, 13:59 »
Well, if it was my mod, I would simply remove Gulzar and the sorcerers for lore inconsistencies, but it is not my mod. I'm afraid we'll have to deal with it.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #6 am: 5. Mai 2016, 14:25 »
I guess I'm the only one who actually likes sorcerers.  :D


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Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #7 am: 5. Mai 2016, 15:25 »
@Adri Well for gameplay, they are fantastic. Very diverse and excellent support abilities. However, lore-wise...they are probably the biggest anomaly in the mod.
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d0m0a

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #8 am: 5. Mai 2016, 17:06 »
Well, I know that the sorcerers are very tricky and not lore-wise, but I don't use them very often. I don't see them very useful for battle, because forces you to micromanage them while all the army fights. But you want to not delete the sorcerers, turn them as Drummer Trolls, but instead made a general buff, give them the ability of choose what buff give to the units, as 10% attack or 10 & defense by sorcerer, with no ability of self defend themselves.

Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #9 am: 5. Mai 2016, 18:52 »
Magic in Middle-Earth is a very complicated topic, because even Tolkien contradicts himself. On the one hand he said that magic isn't something you learn but a power you are born with. He also said that humans aren't born with magic, but on the other hand there were humans in Tolkien's writings who are capable of using magic. Aragorn can use simple magic for healing, the Mouth of Sauron learned sorcery under Sauron and (Black) Númenóreans are said to be able to use magic in some ways. I think you could spend a lifetime with debating whether the sorcerers would exist like this in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, but you can't find a final solution, because in the end we can only interpret as we can't ask Tolkien anymore.

Saeros

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #10 am: 6. Mai 2016, 10:19 »
In general the Angmar faction is not lore- friendly...
There were no Black Numenoreans in the forces of the Witch- King, or they were way too few in order to be -theoretically- considered as part of the Angmar army.
The forces who were used by the Witch- King were Orcs, Trolls and Hillmen (decendants of the Easterlings)
Keeping this in mind I think that the lore is already altered a lot, in order to have a nice gameplay.
That's why I find the use of sorcerers totally wrong and unnecessary.

Concerning the fact of magic, used by anyone else than the Maiar in Middle- Earth is wrong and not lore- wise, even the Elves used their magic based on the powers given to them by using their magic rings.
Aragorn e.g is a healer not a wizard, someone who knows how to use beneficially roots and plants is not a magician (also he has Maiar blood in his veins, so his healing power may be enhanced).

All in all I do not blame the team for how the faction is implemented in the game (since EA chose to alter the lore), but I think that this whole community is made for its members, being moders testers or just fans, to share their ideas and their perspective. Any criticising is done for beneficial purposes and to bring the mod in a higher standard.

Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #11 am: 6. Mai 2016, 16:33 »
Regarding the not lore-friendly unit distribution:
The fact that Black Númenóreans didn't provide the main part is right, which is why we changed there names to "Soldiers of Carn Dûm". They also serve as Angmars elite whereas the main forces are Orcs and Hillmen led by Thrallmasters. Only the Dark Guard is intended to consist of Black Númenóreans. The only units that may be "invented" are the dire wolves, but in the end, even they are based on Tolkien's writings.

Regarding magic in Middle-Earth:
Due to all inconsistencies, the word "magic" isn't clearly defined which is why we can only assume where it begins and where it ends and how we have to interpret it, but you can't say that magic used by anyone else than the Maiar isn't lore-friendly as even Tolkien said that Elves have magic skills to a certain extent. Their skills might be less apparent and differ from the magic used by the Maiar but an elf is inherently a magic creature. Especially magical singing and camouflaging magic are explicitly mentioned by Tolkien. And like I said Númeróreans are said to be able to learn at least simple magic. The Mouth of Sauron is the best example as he learned sorcery under Sauron. Dwarves are also capable of using magic for their craftsmanship, especially for weapon making.

Walküre

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #12 am: 6. Mai 2016, 18:13 »
I totally agree and it's obvious that the Ainur are clearly not the only ones endowed with such magical capabilities; Radagast has already referred to many examples of other types of Magic, including the renowned Elven one (considered, probably, the subtlest and most pervasive form of Magic).

Only, the focus of my reasoning is rather on how Magic is displayed in Angmar. That prominent sacrifice theme is exactly what I find inconsistent; as I previously wrote, I can't really recall anything about that type of usage of Magic (that is, inferior beings used as sacrificial victims to cast spell or spread dark arts). This is probably what the Community regards as 'alien' to the new consistent spirit of the Edain Mod 4.0. A similar situation, if we can make a comparison, to what we have recently debated about concerning Light Bringers, whose magical display was judged a bit negatively by many people (we thus tried to propose, with some success, more lore accurate concepts).

Furthermore, it's true that Magic is a very vast and multicoloured aspect to deal with; nevertheless, I also think that there some specific guidelines anyway, that exactly define the borders of what is Tolkien-related and what is not so much (I remember there are a lot of topics in the Lore Corner related to this fundamental matter). This doesn't mean, though, that I want to suggest a total overhaul of the faction; it's something I wanted to point out  :)
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Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #13 am: 6. Mai 2016, 18:35 »
Let me get this straight: My remarks weren't meant as criticism of the original suggestion by Odysseus or further statements. I just wanted to clarify some intentions behind the conception of Angmar and point out some mistakes in previous statements. This is also not to be confused with an excuse or an explanation for the sorcerers. For my part, I am also not a fan of the sorcerers.

Walküre

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #14 am: 6. Mai 2016, 23:35 »
I'm sorry if my post seemed to be targeted at you specifically, or to have implied that you were justifying the presence of the sorcerers in the game; it was really not my intention.

It was, instead, aimed to address Magic and the fact that, although Tolkien can't obviously answer our questions anymore (as you wrote), we can always find some consolidated/canonical boundaries in the vast lore, so that we might be more easily guided in the conceiving of concepts. I then picked sorcerers just as an example to prove my point, because I find them very lore contradictory.

Besides, I appreciate all the efforts made to fill the gaps of EA Games and to make Angmar more consistent. I feel this is more of a general lore-centred consideration, rather than a real suggestion (unless sorcerers will actually be removed from the faction, and I presume this is not a very likely scenario)  :)
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Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #15 am: 7. Mai 2016, 00:01 »
I didn't understand it that way, don't worry. I mainly wrote this post to clarify what my intention was.

FG15

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #16 am: 7. Mai 2016, 01:53 »
I want to share my opinion about the sorcerers of Angmar.

What do we know about the sorcery of Angmar and the Witch-king in particular. First of all his name, he is known as the king of all witchers, and therefore these have to player an important role in Angmar. We know that Glorfindel was the first to recognize his true identity. Before that, the Witch-king was thought to be a dark numenor (similar to what happened with the Necromancer), such that we can conclude that there were other men similar to the Mouth of Sauron, who were knowledged in sorcery. Also, these men must have been powerful enough to lead an army of orcs, wolves and trolls, or somebody else would have guessed something before.
Additionally, we know at least two kinds of sorcery connected to the Witch-king, first the resurection of the Barrow-wights and second the corruption of Minas Morgul making it a place radiating terror and fear, so much that even after it's destruction the land was still tainted with doom.
So, it is not unprobable at all that there were some kind of sorcerors in Angmar, and personally, I think it extremly likely.

Now, to look at the way the sorcerers are implemented in BfME. They drain the lifeforce of their acolytes to perform there magic. Are there any similar cases in the lore. Yes, there are some. First of all the Ring of the Men, draining the lifeforce of their bearers until nothing remained but wights. Also, the Dead of Durnharg lost all their lifeforce after braking their oath. Then there are the Barrow-wights who themself drain the lifeforce of their victims and the Morgulblade, sucking the lifeforce of the victim and slaving it with its magic. And another example is the Black Breath.
In the first two of these cases the act was done freely and willingly. Also, we know of the power of a pure sacrifice in Middle-Earth.

So, if we assume that the sorcerers need to use their own lifeforce to do their magic, maybe they even have lesser rings of power (we know that there existed some). And the acolytes are servants who would sacrifice their life for the "greater good" of Angmar, such that they offer their own life instead that of the sorcerer.

Walküre

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #17 am: 7. Mai 2016, 03:23 »
The comparison to the Nine Rings could be a bit tricky. The Nine were deceived by Sauron (unwillingly) and given Nine Rings (which were previously affected and tainted by Sauron himself, twisting the initial wishes and purposes that the Elves had in their creation); they undoubtedly paid a high price and had their soul marred forever, but the Nine became far more powerful as the Nazgûl (with an unnaturally long lifespan). The point is that there is not any type of sacrifice in their cursed condition: the Nine Rings made them bound to Sauron's destiny (as it's coherently shown in the game) and totally dependent on his powers, being enhanced or weakened according to their Master's fate. Thus, I don't think this could be a suitable reference to justify sacrifice.

The Morgul Blade (just like the Nine Rings, but on a minor scale) is a tool. I honestly see it as a powerful artefact meant to harm/kill/curse. Again, I don't see the sacrifice theme lying anywhere behind this weapon (which is nonetheless enchanted by dark Magic).

The Oathbreakers were cursed for their betrayal, becoming a very fearful force to deal with; the Oath, and the consequent betrayal, was what bound them to their suspended condition. Therefore, the Oath is the means via which the Ghosts can regain Peace, without the Heir of Isildur gaining any advantage but their aid and without using their energy as a sacrifice meant to enhancement.

The Barrow Wights use their powers to trap and harm other beings, and their spells are exactly aimed to capture those who enter their land. Similarly to the Morgul Blade, I don't think the sacrifice motive fits them too at all. Corroding stamina and harming people are 'just' part of their inherent magical nature.

It's exactly that type of sacrifice, with all the acolytes around dying and having their soul departed from their body, that doesn't convince me completely. We have no exact precedent cases in the lore, and the lore itself, concerning evil Magic, clearly indicates that things have always worked in the opposite way (the example of Morgoth and Sauron). By the way, Morgoth and Sauron can be seen, on different scales, as the root of all evil in Arda (consequently, Nine Rings, Morgul Blades and Barrow Wights included). It's thus the same major theme: the mightiest beings sacrifice their own powers by spreading them throughout the World, in order to sustain their creations/allies and dominate them.

I didn't come up yet with a suitable suggestion, but I want to give a hint either way. Wouldn't it be better if the sorcerers were implemented with more lore accurate abilities/mechanics in the game, and if they were somehow smartly connected to the Witch King (as Mordor's heroes are with Sauron)? Obviously, not the same mechanics, but rather a very symbolic link to the King of all Sorcerers in Angmar and source of most dark Magic in that realm. That is, receiving powers (or an enhancement of their powers) when the Witch King shares his own with them (in other words, 'sacrificing' his powers); I think it would be a much more consistent concept.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Mai 2016, 12:47 von DieWalküre »
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Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #18 am: 7. Mai 2016, 11:46 »
I think you said it quite nicely Walk, but I'm afraid you'll have to come with a more detailed suggestion or concept if you would like to see a more lore-friendly portrayal.
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Walküre

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #19 am: 7. Mai 2016, 13:02 »
I think you said it quite nicely Walk, but I'm afraid you'll have to come with a more detailed suggestion or concept if you would like to see a more lore-friendly portrayal.

I know, it's exactly what I pointed out in the final paragraph of my post  :)

The previous comment of mine was mainly intended to reply to FG's lore-based thoughts. I will try to propose something, If I can, even though, I admit, Angmar is a quite 'hostile' matter to my likings.

Nevertheless, if anyone is interested enough and thinks to have proper ideas, you are more than welcome to share your suggestions and advices. The link to the Witch King is the input I came up for the beginning, but I would be very much curious if proposals of another kind were presented as well.
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Garlodur

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #20 am: 8. Mai 2016, 01:19 »
Well, someone that just jumped to my mind is to get rid of the acolytes and make the sorcerers into powerful single units that have one mini-hero (tuned down version of Gulzar) to answer to, before the Witch-King's command gets through.

Although they do not directly connect to their ruler I believe some interesting concepts can be devised around single sorcerer units. We can imagine that the Witch-King created similar devises with which to ensure loyalty of his sorcerers as his own master did: this could be a crown to emphasise the Iron Crown part. We can shift the sacrificing from the acolytes to the sorcerers themselves.

Still, the first sorcerer deserves some extra shine. Firstly, Gulzar could have three abilities that still encompass his branch of sorcery where the plague originated: spawn plague-bearing acolytes; Rain of Corpses; leadership to other sorcerers in the form of increased basic damage and reduced cooldown for abilities.
Then, other sorcerers could be like the captains for Rohan with choice of three abilites to specialise in. This ability comes with an upgraded base attack in the line of that ability (slower movement speed; life draining), and an active ability for highed efficiency in areas.


Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #21 am: 8. Mai 2016, 02:50 »
I have seen some very interesting ideas here.
This is all just brainstorming here, nothing really concrete:
The acolytes could be shifted to Gulzar only, if he remains. Instead of summoning plague bearers at the target area, he summons the plague bearers/acolytes around himself and he exudes then a poison aura for a short/medium period of time while he moves. The Corpse Rain goes instead of the blight explosion thing at level 3 at the cost of the retinue around him or something, or no cost except cooldown.

The regular sorcerers will now only have support spells by default and their price could be adjusted a bit. They serve as mini-heros, they have the healing spell (Well of Souls), the debuff +buff spell (Fell Strength) and the slow spell (Black Ice?). I would favour a clear distinction, with the sorcerers having support abilities that fit already a little bit more in the nature of Tolkien's idea of magic and then Gulzar having a lesser ring of power lore-wise to let him have the ability to cast several more powerful and damaging spells.

What do you guys think? It's a combination of some of the good ideas that have been presented here. Feel free to add some stuff.
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ThaneWulfgharn

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #22 am: 9. Mai 2016, 22:00 »
Excuse me for not replying for such a long time but real life has its own commitments.

I have read thoroughly your posts and most of them regard the sorcerers, either lore-wise either gameplay-wise. I have also made some more researches regarding the topic of magic in Arda and, based on the Lore and the Films I would like to make a proposal.

Now, according to the Lore, it is not that men are completely incapable of Magic. In fact, in his one of his letters Tolkien states: "and I suspect they [the Blue Wizards] were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." Also, the fact that the King of Angmar is referred as Witch-King further supports this standpoint. However, all the cases recorded happen under the instruction of the Maiar - for the Witch-King was under the instruction of Sauron and those men of the east under that of Alatar and Pallando.

By this statement, I clearly do not wish to contradict my previous one. I want only to specify that Sorcerers AS they are, are a complete abuse with the Lore.

I believe that, with some changes in the faction, it can be arranged that Angmar maintains the gameplay and still hold Sorcerers(but much more limited).

Now, Sorcerers in Angmar can cast 5 spells:
    Black Ice - slows the enemy
    Fell Strength - augments friendlies
    Soul Freeze - freezes an enemy
    Well of Souls - damages units, turning any it kills into wights
    Corpse - causes a rain a downpour of exploding cadavers on the selected area

My idea is to apply these two spells a little differently. Now:

Sorcerers (as unit concept) are to be maintained. They are a possible upgrade for every squad of Men of Carn Dum and they give the squad the Fell Strength bonus. But, Sorcerers cost a little.

Black Ice and Soul Freeze - Well, some time ago I read a post about the possibility of a Weather Palantir Power for Angmar. This is it. The idea is that of a Winter Palantir Power that for a certain time slows down the enemy units in quite a large area and may (based on a random probability) freeze some.

Well of Souls - I was thinking that the Well of Souls could be a structure in the vicinity of which, enemies are weakened and turn to Wights when killed. I myself imagine it as a Black Stone well with 3 Pillars with glowing runes (like the barrows).

Corpse - Corpse is a spell that is useful for it deals area damage. Now, in the last Hobbit film, we have seen Hill Troll Catapults from Gundabad:

https://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/the_hobbit_the_battle_of_the_five_armies_trl_2-1080-mov_000104270.jpg


These could replace the original Hill Troll Catapults and have the option to fire either a Scattered Shot(that deals Area Damage strong vs units just like Corpse, though slightly less powerful), either a Boulder(just like the current Hill Troll Catapult - strong vs buildings).

This way, the gameplay/strategic elements of the curren Angmar Sorcerer are maintained, the lore is respected and balance still is maintained even if there is no more acolyte system since:
-The Winter Power is a Palantir power and cannot be cast always.
-The Well of Souls is a structure and has a certain cost.
-The Sorcerer would be a little expensive to add to the squads.
-The Catapult Troll can use either Scatter Shot either Boulder (you cannot have them both) AND Scatter Shot is a little less stronger.

*Details of the balance such as the cost of Sorcerers or Damage of Scatter shot I leave to the team.

I do not know if I was clear. If not, then tell me so that I make a fully detailed Angmar proposal.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Mai 2016, 22:03 von ThaneWulfgharn »

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #23 am: 9. Mai 2016, 22:54 »
Hey guys,

you have raised many good points in this thread, and we're aware that Angmar is not as lore-friendly as some of our other factions. We do have our reasons for that, though. Primarily, it can't strictly be lore-friendly because there is not enough lore to create a whole faction around - we are basically forced to supplement the lore with ideas of our own or to remove the faction altogether, and we felt Angmar had too much potential to do the latter. ThaneWulfgarn's original suggestions may then seem the most reasonable course: Take Mordor, Angmar's closest relation in the lore, as an inspiration. However, if Angmar is to be a faction of its own, it must also be distinct and unique. It shouldn't just be a poor man's Mordor, it should have an appeal of its own. If we simply resort to slightly altered versions of Mordor wherever Tolkien doesn't give us exact and specific descriptions, there won't be much of an Angmar identity left. If we took out the frost magic, the sorcery, the sacrifice theme, then redesigned the Men of Carn Dûm and the buildings to look more like Mordor, we may end up with a more lore-friendly faction - but would it actually be more fun to play? Why would you even play it at all if you could just play regular Mordor?

Keep in mind that many of Angmar's more unique gameplay mechanics rely on these things. We'd have to either cut or completely redesign Helegwen's arrow mechanic, Mornamarth's draining of allied soldiers, Zaphragor's sacrifice of his own health, Gulzar's acolythes and probably Drauglin's shapeshifting. Not everyone is fond of every single one of these, but I do believe Angmar would be much poorer without all of them. They create very unique gameplay for the faction. I also don't think everything that is not explicitly described by Tolkien is automatically not lore-friendly. For example, is it not reasonable to assume that Angmar would develop its own style of architecture over the centuries? Especially considering that none of the people there have any cultural relationshop to Mordor, but are living close to both wild Orc and Hillmen tribes as well as the kingdom of Arnor, two very different influences. And why wouldn't they use stone, wood and iron for their structures? I think in some areas we are quite free to design something unique instead of just modifying other things, as long as the result is still something that might have existed in Middle-earth. It's not much different from designing specific Dwarven units and buildings, of which Tolkien didn't describe that many either.

As for the sacrifice theme, that actually does come from a book quote about the Witch-king, namely that "his own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding." It's not much, but then again we don't have much to work with here anyway, and we felt that a nation led entirely by the Witch-king should have this as part of its essence. The realm was created for a destructive purpose, not to thrive and endure, and everyone is expected to lay down their lives for that cause. And I think it's more interesting gameplaywise to turn that into active sacrifices that force the player to make decisions instead of just giving them cheap units you can send to their death without worrying too much. Mornamarth is a cool example of what I think this allows us to do (balance-issues aside). This doesn't mean we absolutely have to keep the sorcerers' acolythes of course, though I do like sacrifice as a theme that's strongly visible throughout the faction in different ways.

Sorcery itself is a complicated topic, but as some have pointed out the Mouth of Sauron was taught magic by Sauron and the Witch-king himself also acquired sorcerous powers. Thus, we feel it's not a direct violation that the Witch-king may have also taught some tricks to people like Zaphragor or Mornamarth. We are aware that we are pushing this with Angmar, but we erred on the side of gameplay here - the sorcery is what makes heroes like these two even possible, and I think they both have very interesting mechanics that make Angmar a richer and more interesting faction.

The Men of Carn Dûm in Edain are not actually meant to be Black Numenoreans. This is a lore inaccuracy introduced by the original game which we removed. The Black Numenoreans were actually living in Umbar and only Mordor could still have some of them as servants (in Edain, the Morgul Knights are intended to be Black Numenoreans, though it's not stated in the game). In fact, we deliberately chose the name of Men of Carn Dûm so the player can interpret their lineage on his own. Though our own backstory here is that these are Dunedain traitors who defected from Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain to serve the Witch-king. Which, once again, is not something directly from the lore, but in my view not too outlandish to imagine either - after all, Sauron managed to sway almost the entirety of Numenor into worshipping Melkor, practicing human sacrifice and make war on the Valar. However, this backstory is not actually told in the game and you are free to ignore it.

The frost powers also take some liberties as we are aware, but on the other hand we felt it was important to convey an atmosphere of harsh winter with Angmar - which is difficult because not every map is a snow map. But many factions bring some influence of their own with them, like the elves summoning woods, Mordor tainting the land or the Dwarves summoning Dwarven structures. In light of these, we believe it's fine for Angmar to create frozen land or conjure a snowstorm as well.

Hopefully this gives you some insight into why we made the choices we did for Angmar :) I'm hesitant to redesign as a faction without much magic overall - not only because it would be a great amount of work, but also because I think we would lose much of the faction's unique identity in the process. However, I'm certainly not opposed to changing some things, and the sorcerers don't need to remain exactly as they are. I'm open to suggestions in that regard.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Mai 2016, 23:07 von Lord of Mordor »
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #24 am: 10. Mai 2016, 00:42 »
Thank you kindly for the elaborative post, LoM.

My turn for a wall of text:
You raise solid points, of course and I personally agree with most of them. However, as you can see, I think we are only really debating the use of magic in Angmar. The architecture you have implemented for Angmar is wonderful and quite fitting, with the use of stone and iron, as well as some wooden elements.

The sacrifice theme is also a very fitting concept that I do not think is unrealistic or lore-unfriendly in the sense that it is impossible. You could imagine that all these individuals would ''push'' themselves to extremes just for the sake of their leaders and the thrust for power. I see it like a perverted inspiration mechanic, where these inviduals or soldiers would go to extreme lengths to prove themselves in the face of their leaders, hurting themselves in the process.

Furthermore, most of these things that you interpreted for yourselves like the traitorous Men that joined with Angmar and that are not dictated in the lore, are far more acceptable, because you have actually written lore to try and explain a logical chain of events that resulted in what Angmar eventually had become.

This brings me to my point and my suggestion: I think this is the perfect opportunity to make a lore background article or post explaining the entire background of how the sorcerers came to be and who and what Gulzar is. This, to remove all the speculation and room for interpretation and make it so that they have their own little lore to make it less controversial to field them and hopefully lead to more acceptance from the lore heads. It is the ideal opportunity to explain to the people what Angmar's magic is, and how it came to be.

My lore suggestion goes something like this:
The Witch-King had two disciples, which he believed where his two most potent pupils and he gave them two lesser rings of power that the Witch-King had obtained in the past. Since the Witch-King was already bound to Sauron's will, the rings had no effect on him, so he decided to gift them to his most talented disciples. Introducing: Zaphragor and Gulzar.

Zaphragor's story has already been explained in one of the articles, but Gulzar has yet to be explained. I believe it would be very proficient to hit two birds with one stone, by connecting the sorcerers and Gulzar together, in the formation of a small sorcerer cult.

Allow me to continue:
While Zaphragor was completely devoted and loyal to the Witch-King, Gulzar had a more twisted nature deformed by pride, hate and a superiority complex. Being one of the most influential figures in Angmar's ruling sorcerer nobilite, he would go on ahead and use his lesser ring of power to dabble in dark arts and other forms of depravity. Eventually, he was most pleased that he was able to slowly decay the life of his test subjects, simply by focussing his hate into his lesser ring of power, the ring of decay. This let Gulzar to form a base of studies and research around the manipulation of pestilence and decay, and the experiments on subjects to create vile plagues and virulent diseases. However, his pride let him to believe that he needed to spread his influence and teachings in these dark arts, so that they would not be lost. In his search for future pupils, he found that he needed human beings that had a particular disdain for living things underneath them and humans that could have their hate become a driving force, instead of fear, thrive for power or simple loyalty, much alike to Gulzar himself. Where else to look but the Angmar nobilite, who had a particular disdain for the filthy orcs and hillmen, as well as the half-witted trolls beneath them?
He went on and founded a small, but very powerful sorcerer cult. His lesser ring of power, the ring of decay, had a particular ability, to share a part of its power with an individual that was similar in personality as the wearer through a ritual that only Gulzar could hold in utter secrecy. Unfortunately for Gulzar, and unbeknownst to him, the ring of decay had one downside. His life was prolonged much like the lifespan of Numénoreans, but it did not make him immortal. Instead, he would slowly decay himself, and suffer a long and painful death after the fall of Angmar due to his greed, pride and dabbling in the dark arts. Since only very few were apt to share Gulzar's power of pestilence and decay, the cult was eventually destroyed by the combined forces of Men and Elves during the fall of Angmar. However, some time before Angmar's fall, the Witch-King had taken a notice of Gulzar's cult and their influence as well as aptitude for sorcery. In order to prevent Gulzar from becoming a thorn in the Witch-King's side at the last moments, he laid claim to Gulzar's cult. Gulzar was furious, but eventually accepted, because he knew he could not defeat the Witch-King in a duel, and that somewhere, he was grateful, for the Witch-King had given him the lesser ring of power that allowed him to cast sorcery in the first place. As a last ditch effort, the Witch-King himself imparted some teachings to the cult, which led them to be able to manipulate the elements around them to a certain degree. In the final assault on Carn-Dûm, the Witch-King ordered all the acolytes to make a last stand and ''throw everything they have'' at the invaders before the capital would fall. The acolytes tried manipulating the ice and snow beneath their feet to slow the advance, freeze unlucky souls as well as sapping the strength and the will to fight of the invaders. They even tried healing arts, which is strictly forbidden in sorcery and throwing corpses at their opponents. Gulzar was obedient, till the last few moments, where he bolted like a coward further north. Gulzar's cult was destroyed, and he died of decay by his ring in complete loneliness somewhere in the northern wastes.
This is some vague, but potential lore background that I had thought of for Gulzar and the sorcerers.

I will now move on to my suggestion for the sorcerers:
Transform the sorcerers into a support-oriented heroic unit. Limit them to 3. Raise their price accordingly (1100 possibly). Make them a late game unit only, which can be built via the temple of twilight if the Tower of Sorcery has been researched on an outpost. Furthermore, all their abilities will be unlocked by default, which would make them unique since the sorcerers would be the only heroic units for an evil faction that would not level, with a pure support oriented function. Scale their levels in power accordingly. With 5 abilities, and 5 acolytes, each ability costs an acolyte more, requiring the player to carefully manage his acolytes in battle. Furthermore, the reinforcement time of acolytes should be very low, like heroic units. To compensate for this, the Temple of Twilight could have some interesting abilities to make it more powerful in the lategame. On level 2, the Temple of Twilight can activate an ability that allows all fielded sorcerers to rapidly reinforce their acolytes for a very short time.
On level 3, if Gulzar is recruited, sorcerers and their thralls get a boost in armour and spell damage.
Both could be inverted, other abilities could be thought of.
Again, this part is just conjecture.

I believe we need to find a compromise. Since the fact that Angmar can seemingly recruit as many sorcerers as it wants, it upsets the people that care much about lore, and Tolkien's definition of magic. Tolkien doesn't necessarily mean that magic cannot be taught, but the key element to Tolkien's magic is that its use and appearances are very reserved and then again subtle for most peoples. He stated specifically that being able to bend elements would take tremendous amounts of strength or longevity, akin to that of Maiar and above, or individuals possessing objects that are imbued by the power of Maiar or the inheritance and origin of their folk, like the elves. I think that if we make the sorcerers limited, but powerful, we can explain it in the sense that the Witch-King managed to give them lesser rings of power, since multiple were made and eventually found in the remnants of Eregion and other regions of Eriador. I think it would be the only way to justify the use of such extreme feats of magic for ''regular'' human beings for a faction devoid of Maiar. I am sure that Walk would agree with me in that sense :P.

I know it was quite a bit of text, but what are your thoughts people? I spent a decent amount of time thinking of a way to explain a connection between Gulzar, his acolytes and the Witch-king and their ability to use magic via the possession of lesser rings of power, not to mention writing this post.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Mai 2016, 01:20 von Odysseus »
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #25 am: 10. Mai 2016, 00:54 »
Oh wow... Thats an awesome background story Odysseus, I really enjoyed reading it! And I cannot say anything more than to fully agree with your suggestion. This is imo the best way to implement the sorcerers, while at the same time keep the unique sacrificial theme with Angmar. Great work there!

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #26 am: 10. Mai 2016, 10:23 »
I'm pretty sure Gulzar already has a complete backstory, although it has not been translated into english yet. Yours was great to read though, good job!

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #27 am: 10. Mai 2016, 11:23 »
@ThaneWulfgharn I'm with you with this whole thing, I told you right from the start and as it seems we have a similar point of view on this subject, so go wherever you go!
@ Odysseus I do not think that the Witch was able to taught magic to anyone, let alone a human.. (magic in Tolkien's world is something that everyone can underastand in a different way so let's say I agree  :P )
Your story though is obviously something that you gave your time and and put effort as well as your suggestion for the sorcerers, so although my point of view is closer to ThaneWulfgharn's, if his suggestion can't make it to the mod, I could see yours as a fitting change to the sorcerers.
@LordofMordor I can understand how you, as a team, want to iplement the whole sacrifice thing but Zaphragor, Monamarth plus Karsh are pretty solid examples. Also the magic thing is what makes it hard for some people to accept, since it is alien to Middle- Earth as used by Angmar in the game, that is why the use of sorcerers seems wrong to me, along with the fact that they can be numerous and use pretty strong magic. So the suggestions by Thane and Odysseus can be used as a solution, in order to have almost everyone happy.

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #28 am: 10. Mai 2016, 13:15 »
Thank you kindly for the compliments people!

Zitat
I'm pretty sure Gulzar already has a complete backstory, although it has not been translated into english yet. Yours was great to read though, good job!
Ah yes, the Angmar RPG. I forgot about that. I sincerely hope that the written lore will explain the theme of lesser rings of power, because it is for now, the only way I see to justify the employment of such radical and un-Tolkienish use of magic in Angmar. Anyway, I look forward to that!
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #29 am: 10. Mai 2016, 13:45 »
Wow Odysseus, amazing background story on Gulzar.   :)

I also like your changes to the Tower of Sorcery, though to be honest, if those changes were to occur, I think the Garrison Tower might need to be buffed to compensate.


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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #30 am: 12. Mai 2016, 01:27 »
Quotation from Odysseus:

Zitat
He stated specifically that being able to bend elements would take tremendous amounts of strength or longevity, akin to that of Maiar and above, or individuals possessing objects that are imbued by the power of Maiar or the inheritance and origin of their folk, like the elves.

Yes, this is the main point  ;)
Completely relatable also, in my opinion, to the Light Bringers of Imladris.

That was a really nice narration, Odysseus. Of course, I always like reading walls of text, especially when they are so much creative; fortunately, they are not a crime in this amazing forum  :P

Regarding your suggestion, I don't want to enter deeply numbers and balance-related matters, but I think it could really be a solid beginning to start from. It seems to me a legitimate and accurate way of giving sorcerers more gameplay and lore consistency, and coming up with smarter mechanics.

Addressing Lord of Mordor: Thank you very much for having explained the basic themes you used and focused on in the shaping of the faction; the general portrait is now much clearer. I nonetheless still think that this kind of sacrifice motive is not really so closed to the main common lore that you can holistically determine in the Silmarillion and in the most lore-based passages of LOTR (even though Tolkien seems to change idea a bit, sometimes). If that quotation, though, gave you the basic inspiration for the current rendition, I am totally fine then; they are words coming directly from Tolkien, and they are completely legitimate too  :)

By the way, now that I think about it, the iconic and common theme of the mightiest evil leader that sustains its realm and minions with its own energies is somehow already present in Angmar. The Witch King's Might of the Witch King exactly enhances heroes' abilities (Gulzar's included, of course).
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #31 am: 12. Mai 2016, 02:29 »
As some have said, Gulzar already has a backstory, though it is quite old. In our original concept, Gulzar was the only genuine Black Numenorean in Angmar. He was taken from Umbar by the Mouth of Sauron and forced into servitude for Mordor, where he learned Dark Arts much like the Mouth himself had. Later, he was sent north along with the Witch-king to aid him in his mission. I quite like that story because it gives Gulzar a reason for his sorcerous powers that is in line with a magic user we already know, the Mouth. Though it does make the assumption that the Mouth of Sauron is thousands of years old - which is possible considering that he entered the service of the Dark Tower "when it first rose again", but not confirmed.

I do like the idea that Angmar's sorcerers work through lesser rings of power though. That is quite a cool idea.

Interestingly, while further researching possible magic in Angmar, I came upon two quotes in Tolkien's manuscripts as described in "The Peoples of Middle-earth", which describe the "evil folk" of Rhudaur as "workers of sorcery" and "much given to sorcery". This, however, is not repeated in the official appendices, so we can't be sure whether Tolkien later changed his mind on that.

What does appear in the appendices though, are superstitions about the Witch-king held by the men of Forochel: "And they were afraid of the
Witch-king, who (they said) could make frost or thaw at his will", and "For in summer
his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long."

Once again, this is not definitive - while it does imply mastery of winter magic, it could also just be silly superstition. Then again, Arvedui died for not heeding the Lossoth's advice, so who knows :P
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #32 am: 12. Mai 2016, 03:00 »
I think it's enough to work with. You don't really have a choice in that regard anyway, so might as well go along with it.

Obviously, I prefer my story, since it makes more sense from my point of view :P. I mean, Numénoreans were long-lived, but not thousands of years old. What we could say is that he received a Ring of Power from the Witch-King and then travelled to Mordor, to learn sorcery?

I don't know, pick my story already, it's simpler :D.

In all seriousness, I look forward to seeing that lore article being revised and eventually released to be read to our hearts' content.
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #33 am: 13. Mai 2016, 16:21 »
Gulzar being a 1000-year-old and more Black Númenórean could be plausible, at an extent. What if, for example, he were given one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves in Sauron's possession?

I read once, somewhere on the Internet, an interesting theory that suggested that the Mouth of Sauron was exactly given one of the Seven, and that this might explain his probable deep knowledge of sorcery and his extreme longevity. Given that Sauron gathered back three of the Seven (while the remaining four were consumed by the fire of the Dragons), this speculation doesn't seem to violate the lore in any of its aspects, at least substantially.

Thus, Gulzar may have received too such a 'Gift' from the Dark Lord, ending up with becoming a considerable evil force, master of dark arts and terrible sorcery along with the Witch King (wielder of one of the Rings of Power too). I think this could give Gulzar the proper 'legitimation' and high status that he currently seems to lack, and that the Community implicitly 'demanded' (in my opinion) when the polls indicated him as one of the least favourite heroes of Angmar. What do you think?  :)

By the way, I don't believe that those passages from the Appendices are really superstitions, after all. As mighty magical beings like Sauron and Galadriel always manage to modify the surrounding weather and environment of the World according to their Magic (probably, the most effective display of Magic in the Tolkien's Universe), it's not so impossible then to presume that the Witch King could have made the winter in the North bitter and colder at will too, or summoned sudden blizzards against his enemies. The lore gives us many elements to speculate concretely about this topic.
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Mai 2016, 16:52 von DieWalküre »
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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #34 am: 17. Okt 2016, 11:22 »
Hello everyone. I'm quite a newby in this forum, but I liked a lot reading the discussion about the apparent conflict between Angmar's sorcerers and magic and Tolkien's lore. I'm personally quite a big fan of Tolkien's mythology (even though I can't claim to be as expert as DieWalkure) and I would like to share my thoughts about the issue.

It is definitely true that magic in Tolkien's world is something much higher and mysterious than the usual magic found in the fantasy genre (like Harry Potter or WoW), to the point that its effects are never really described in details (such as for example the actual powers of the Three Rings. What could they really do?). Furthermore, we never have a clearcut and precisely described distinction between magic and dark arts (and to me all this opaqueness of details is what makes Tolkien's world so fascinating). And I definitely agree that only beings of great power and will could wield magic, certainly not common men.

Having said that, I still think that the presence of sorcerers in Angmar other than the Witch-King himself shouldn't be considered as so anti-lore. I always had a feeling when reading Tolkien's works that the First Age was thought as a sort of mythical past, the age of legends and gods, when men were still somehow primitive, something like norse or celtic mythology. As we descend towards the Third and Fourth Age we proceed to an evolution of mankind in terms of ability to invent and modify the world. But Tolkien seems to have always been quite negative towards attempts to "modify the Creation", think for instance to Saruman's "Industrial Revolution" or his creation of Uruks. I also recently came across a writing in the History of Middle Earth in which Tolkien gave some more accounts of Numenor's dark days and at a certain point he mentions "ships capable of sailing on their own and other wonders", which reminded me a lot of steamships (and actually a steampunk ambientation for Numenor seems really great in my mind). Anyways, all this wall of words just to say that it could fit to have the Witch-King teaching men how to pervert the laws of nature and performing "experiments" such as infecting cultists with plague and sending them to Arnor in a sort of bacteriological warfare, because in the Third Age men start seeing themselves as the masters of creation and attempt to dominate it (and being misguided by Sauron's teachings). This too was mentioned somewher in the History of Middle Earth. Of course, this is really mere speculation and we cannot invent too many oddities, yet the presence of sorcerers as evil men trained in some form of "perverted science" which others would see as sorcery to me could fit quite well. Yet, I definitely agree with the suggestion of making sorcerers a semi-heroic unit, limited to 3, more expensive and also more resistant.

Just a final thought: I'm Italian and in the LOTR translation in Italian the Witch-King is translated as The King of Sorcerers, so before reading this discussion it seemed natural to me that Angmar was crawling with wizards, witches and stuff! :D

Well then, sorry for my bothering you and my logorrhea, have a nice day! :)

Walküre

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Re: Angmar Style - Does it feel right?
« Antwort #35 am: 17. Okt 2016, 18:48 »
I'm personally quite a big fan of Tolkien's mythology (even though I can't claim to be as expert as DieWalküre) and I would like to share my thoughts about the issue.

Now you're seriously making me blush  :D

Thank you for having shared your precious thoughts. There are people here with a much more consistent knowledge of Tolkien's universe and its variety of details. What I just really enjoy is speculation and getting myself involved in vast (and long!) debates about the general foundations of Tolkien's lore.

Regarding the topic, I already expressed my opinion in the previous passages of the thread. Just as Radagast pointed out, Tolkien contradicts himself numerous times in his different writings and it's thus not really so easy to draw a definitive line which clearly defines what is wrong and what is right (legitimate, more precisely). Some people are very keen on accepting even the most controversial interpretations and referring to all the Professor's sources in search of answers; others, as I personally do, prefer instead, in front of challenging issues, to look back to the 'purest' (often the earliest/oldest) sources like the Silmarillion and so try to categorise the common pillars (guidelines, boundaries,...) that sustain the whole propriety of the Legendarium.

There could obviously be many more ways to consider things and both the above-mentioned praxes present their own advantages and disadvantages. Magic is exactly one of those boundless themes one will find extremely tough to specify completely. As I view things, I think the major lore-indications offer us enough evidences of the concrete differences that divide Good Magic and Black Magic; in a closer perspective, I really believe that human Magic is always confined and restrained within certain boundaries, and I consequently oppose any kind of proliferation of human sorcerers or Elven mages that can dispose of their power so loosely (taking also into account that extreme element-bending is even something beyond to the average possibilities of the Eldar).

Nevertheless, I also acknowledge and recognise the gameplay reasons behind their presence in the game and I appreciate very much the Edain Team's endeavour to set limits to their role (making them more valuable, by the way).

P.S. Anche io sono italiano. Se non l'ho fatto prima, ti do il benvenuto su Modding Union. Il riferimento al Re Stregone come 'Re degli Stregoni di Angmar' (uno dei suoi titoli) è davvero interessante, ma non cambia la mia opinione di molto. Spero di avere ancora l'occasione di discutere con te  :)
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