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Autor Thema: New Angmar Ringhero  (Gelesen 6505 mal)

Chiska

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New Angmar Ringhero
« am: 6. Jun 2016, 16:51 »
Currently the Witch-King is the ring hero for the angmar faction, but lore-wise I don't think it is very accurate. According to The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien :

Zitat
"...laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . ." — The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 246

Sauron holds complete dominance over each and every Nazgûl (including the Witch-King) and every action they carry out is ultimately the will of the Dark Lord himself. Therefore it is unpractical for the Witch-King to fall to the temptation of the One Ring as he doesn't really experience lust, desire and other human feelings. Also the Ring and Sauron are one, and technically speaking the Witch-King shares the mind of Sauron (sort of, not really but you get the idea) and for that reason the One would not try to tempt the Ringwraith because "it wants to get back to its master" and the easiest way to do that would to be just to allow the Witch-King to take it and return it to Barad-dûr. And even if the Witch-King somehow tried to take control of it Sauron would prevent it as he has complete control over him.
Also, Sauron doesn't seem to me like the type of guy who would allow his servant to use his beloved One Ring :p .

I realise that this has been a problem for quite a while in the Edain Mod, but the former issue was that there were no other Angmar heroes to really fit the description of being a ring hero and so they decided on the Witch-King.
But that was before the Edain Team gave us some of their custom heroes' background and lore.

In my opinion I think that a fallen dunédain general such as Mornamarth would gladly use the power of the Ring to his own benefit. You might be thinking...of all the Angmar Heroes, why Mornamarth?
The reason I have been contemplating this is because of a little something mentioned in his background story, given by the Edain Team:

Zitat
"The Witch-king knows well that while Mornamarth is a great asset, he is not truly loyal to anyone and is best kept on a short leash. For his part, Mornamarth burns to rule Angmar himself one day, "

This referance strongly supports my statement in the sense that if Mornamarth was given the opportunity, he would not hesitate to betray the Witch-King in order to become the new ruler of Angmar.

While the Witch-King is primarily a mass slayer hero, Mornamarth is more of a supportive hero and would make a rather fine supportive Ring Hero (such as Boromir, and Galadriel). He already has many abilities with a risk vs reward aspect, perhaps the risk could be lowered or/and the reward increased upon picking up the One Ring?

I haven't really thought about a improved skillset but I really think he is a strong candidate for a new Angmar Ring Hero.

Hamanathnath

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #1 am: 6. Jun 2016, 17:18 »
Not a bad suggestion.  However, making Mornamarth the Ring Hero doesn't remove all the contradictions.  I agree that the Witch-King would most likely bring the ring to Sauron like he is supposed to instead of use it for himself, which I think is what the case is ring now.  But the problem with Mornamarth (or anyone else on Angmar for the matter) is why would the Witch King allow them to use the Ring? I strongly doubt he would let allow them to use it instead of taking it to Sauron himself. 

So either way, there will be contradictions.  I don't think your suggestion is bad, and wouldn't mind seeing something like that actually happen.  Just because of How Angmar is set up, it doesn't really make total sense for anyone to really be the Ring-Hero.  The Witch King is the prime candidate though because he already posses unnatural power.

At least, that is how I see it  :P

Chiska

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #2 am: 6. Jun 2016, 19:50 »
We could always assume that Mornamarth found the ring in secrecy,without the Witch-King's knowledge, and thus used it to overthrow his master and become the new ruler of Angmar. :D

Also I think it is more lore-friendly than the Witch-King being the Ring Hero :D.

But, as Haman said, there will always be contradictions in a game such as this, and ultimately theres only so much we can do about it.

Odysseus

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #3 am: 6. Jun 2016, 20:15 »
I made a point about this some time ago as well. I thought it would be interesting to give the ring hero mechanic to the outpost specific heroes, so Gulzar or Mornamarth. Now, I don't like Gulzar so I ultimately decided against it, but I think Mornamarth is a better suited candidate of the two, if we were to steer away from the WK.

Nonetheless, we don't have any official lore on all of the Angmar and ring stuff, so we'll have to refer to gameplay. And gameplay-wise, the Witch-King is the best candidate for that.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Jun 2016, 20:39 von Odysseus »
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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #4 am: 6. Jun 2016, 20:34 »
hmmm...

Zitat
And gameplay-wise, the Witch-King is the best candidate for that.

I agree with Odysseus. The witch-king is the best candidate for a ringhero...
it is definitely an interesting idea, because i believe there are many possibilities for some 'ring-mechanic/systems', but i am not sure if it fit to that fraktion or 'main-system' of this fraktion...
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Canis carcharothias

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #5 am: 7. Jun 2016, 17:24 »
I think it would be more lore-friendly if we make the ring disappear from the game when the Witch-King takes it. After all, it's the purpose of the nine to take the One back to his master.

Of course, it should have some advantage for the Angmar player. When we play Mordor, the (deadliest) servants of sauron get more powerful as their master grows in strength. So, when the Witch-King takes the ring, it could have the same abilities as now as a ringhero, implying that the returning of the ring to the hands of Sauron has made not only Sauron more powerful, but also the nine, as they share a part of his evil power.

The only difference is that the Witch-King doesn't wear the ring, which is a blasphemy towards the almighty Sauron and that when the Witch-King dies, his powers disappear and the ring is not dropped. Something like a version of Galadriel rejecting the ring, but in an evil faction.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Jun 2016, 17:34 von Canis carcharothias »

Odysseus

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #6 am: 7. Jun 2016, 17:32 »
I have no objections here. It is a good proposal imo.
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DrHouse93

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #7 am: 7. Jun 2016, 18:27 »
I think it would be more lore-friendly if we make the ring disappear from the game when the Witch-King takes it. After all, it's the purpose of the nine to take the One back to his master.

Of course, it should have some advantage for the Angmar player. When we play Mordor, the (deadliest) servants of sauron get more powerful as their master grows in strength. So, when the Witch-King takes the ring, it could have the same abilities as now as a ringhero, implying that the returning of the ring to the hands of Sauron has made not only Sauron more powerful, but also the nine, as they share a part of his evil power.

The only difference is that the Witch-King doesn't wear the ring, which is a blasphemy towards the almighty Sauron and that when the Witch-King dies, his powers disappear and the ring is not dropped. Something like a version of Galadriel rejecting the ring, but in an evil faction.

Agree with this. But I'd rather like its increased powers to stay if it's killed. It would be more balanced and rewarding for the Angmar player, IMO, and also more lore-wise (why should Sauron lose some of his powers if the Witch-king is killed, being also unable to restore them?)

Canis carcharothias

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #8 am: 7. Jun 2016, 19:07 »
Agree with this. But I'd rather like its increased powers to stay if it's killed. It would be more balanced and rewarding for the Angmar player, IMO, and also more lore-wise (why should Sauron lose some of his powers if the Witch-king is killed, being also unable to restore them?)

You are right, buy I think that it's a thing of balance, if the Witch-King as ringhero is not too powerful, it would be nice to revive him with the power increase (and with a higher cost), but if he is too OP, maybe it would be imbalanced to have a ringhero permanently for the rest of the match. Does Galadriel maintains her powers when she dies after rejecting the ring? I've never seen what happens in that situation.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Jun 2016, 20:50 von Canis carcharothias »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #9 am: 10. Jul 2016, 10:09 »
I actually really like Chiska's original proposal, but it needs something to spice it up.

So as far as I can tell, Mornamarth only serves because he has plans to rule, and similarly Durmarth is an extremely deadly and powerful warrior in his own right. So actually, what if these 2 as well as the Witch King could ALL take the Ring, with differing effects?

Witch King: If the Witch King takes the One Ring, Sauron becomes recruitable at the Citadel in his Ring form, and the Witch King permanently gains the Ring buffs he had formerly. If Sauron dies he drops the Ring, and Witch King also dies and loses his powers.

I would also like to note that I absolutely hate the idea of the One Ring disappearing from the game, I have hated this feature of Lothlorien ever since they released and have tried to go against it. It is completely unfair for the other player, they have no chance of killing the Ring Hero and regaining it if Galadriel denies the Ring, and Galadriel permanently gains all those buffs and the ability to get Frodo and Sam, who are both powerful heroes in their own right.

Mornamarth: If Mornamarth gains the One Ring, he becomes the new ruler of Angmar. The Witch King dies and cannot be revived until Mornamarth loses the One Ring, and Mornamarth puts on the Witch Kings armor and weaponry to rule Angmar himself. He could have a 2 palantir system featuring enhanced versions of both his and the Witch Kings abilities.

Durmarth: If Durmarth gains the One Ring, he becomes an out of control unstoppable warrior, whom even the Witch King himself dare not raise his hand against. He could keep his two palantir system, except now 1 palantir could act as a mass slayer set of abilities, while the other focuses on hero killing, to highlight the fact that he has become such an unbelievably powerful warrior.

I think giving these options would be really fun and give Angmar a lot of diversity with their Ring Heroes just like they have a lot of diversity as the foundation of their faction(or, at least they would if Dire Wolves weren't so OP D:) I know this is an old topic, but lets discuss this further, I think it has a lot of merit and I should have gotten into it sooner.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Jul 2016, 14:34 von Elite KryPtik »
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Leri_weill

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #10 am: 10. Jul 2016, 13:59 »

I like your propositions Elite, and I'd add something. Mornamarth gaining the Ring should also reflect the internal struggle/civil war/etc that Angmar would face. I guess it has already been mentionned in the topic before, but I don't remember where. Maybe he could debuff friendly units or something like that ? I don't know if a system of heroes siding against or with him could be implemented, with bonuses and disavantages for each choice!

The_Necromancer0

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #11 am: 10. Jul 2016, 20:24 »
I really like the proposal although I don't think the that Durmath would take the ring. For Mornamarth I think some units (wights, werewolves) have to become unrecruitable since they are bound to the WK. It's also likely that the men of Carn Dum would mistreat the hillmen (because they believe themselves superior) and lead them to have weaker stats. In exchange the men of Carn dum would gain increased offensive stats, cheaper, faster recruitment but worse defensive stats since Mornamarth cares not for losses. I was also thinking instead of a dead WK instead he could metaphorically hunt Mornamarth (a timer) at the end of which Mornamarth would be brutally executed and the ring either lost or taken by the WK
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DrHouse93

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #12 am: 11. Jul 2016, 01:27 »
I must say I really love the idea proposed by Elite Kryptic. It's brilliant, IMO. Having the Witch-king returning the Ring to his master, therefore allowing the player to recruit Sauron makes perfect sense (as for the passive effect, rather than thwarting the enemy production through snowstorm, I think that Werewolves, Direwolves and Wights should deal more damage. Why this? Well, because Sauron is back, of course)

But I absolutely love the idea of Mornamarth betraying and killing the Witch-king and using the One Ring by himself, wearing his armor, weapon and Iron Crown, and also gaining some of his skills (and as an active effect, all the Men of Carn Dum and Hillmen as well should deal more damage). And since with the incoming 4.4 patch the Ring can be picked up only by the Ringhero himself, this will give the player even an harder choice on who will take it first (the Witch-king or Mornamarth?)

I support this idea

FG15

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #13 am: 11. Jul 2016, 01:33 »
Sauron won't become the Ring Hero of Angmar, because he is already the Ring Hero of Mordor.

Walküre

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #14 am: 11. Jul 2016, 02:59 »
And since with the incoming 4.4 patch the Ring can be picked up only by the Ringhero himself, this will give the player even an harder choice on who will take it first (the Witch-king or Mornamarth?).

The player would certainly be put in front of a decisive and quite difficult choice to make. I generally like this significant options though, for they really offer you multiple possibilities  :)

Sauron won't become the Ring Hero of Angmar, because he is already the Ring Hero of Mordor.

This logic is undoubtedly lapidary and justified, but, If I really were to express my sincere thoughts on the matter, I would say that I never really felt so much comfortable about the Witch King's Ring Hero concept. I really think it lacks a bit of that unique touch that makes the Edain Mod great. But this is obviously only an opinion of mine.

Elite's suggestions look indeed very interesting, and I'm sure they would have high chances to develop decently. I will probably give a much more detailed contribution to this debate in the days to come; I nonetheless believe that trying to find more conceptual alternatives about this subject could definitely be something beneficial for Angmar as a whole  ;)