[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

About the Mass Slayers balancing

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dgsgomes:
It was said that Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel and WK (Angmar) - who is sort of a mass slayer as well - should not be buffed (mainly against single units) because that would make them OP, as they would have a bigger versatility. Well, I disagree. :P

All of them are supposed to be the strongest heroes of their faction (and are also 3000 cost heroes), but it is sad that sometimes they are weak or almost useless in some combat situations (especially Galadriel and WK), in which they lose even against very weak and cheap heroes.

Against the argument "but they cant have 'another hole', they are mass slayers already, and that would be OP", I'd like to point out Zaphragor, an excellent mass slayer, a great hero killer and also a pretty tanky hero! And, with all that, he is still pretty enjoyable to play with and against. Other examples are Legolas and Gimli - both are mass slayers but are also versatile in combat.

I really think that small changes would improve these heroes. Increasing slightly the damage or reducing slightly the cooldown of Saruman's and Gandalf's powers (as their stats are pretty balanced and as they are wizards, so their strenght should reside more on their powers - even against strong single units), giving WK a real weapon switch (just like the Dragon Slayer, without the need of a power which has to be recharged) and Galadriel an automatic stance switch which changes if she is fighting at range or fighting in close combat are some suggestions that would do the job very well, in my opinion xD.

Thank you for your attention :)

Bogdan Hmel:
I completely agree

Walküre:
I disagree with you about Galadriel.

Let's start with saying that I'm too in favour of giving her (in a hypothetical future) a very particular and unique stance system, useful in battle in short-ranged (thus dangerous) situations and absolutely fitting as a special feature for the faction's chief. Though, this is something I am personally intended to deal with not anytime soon, because there objectively are more daunting priorities at the moment. The proposal is nonetheless often in my mind, and I will certainly have the proper time to develop it with care  :)

Left aside the stance system (which, in my thoughts, would be 'just' an additional element rather than something that could define her role in a totally different way), I think it's a bit inaccurate implying that Galadriel should necessarily need more prominent mass-slayer properties. The reason is quite simple: Galadriel is everything but a mass slayer in her normal form. She was significantly modified in the Edain Mod 4.0 exactly to make her the supporting hero she's supposed to be by the lore and her own inner nature. Galadriel is primarily a Hero Supporter, with also prominent properties of a Building Destroyer (always in line with her character).

Her attack and her abilities were both consequently fashioned on that purpose: that is, making her extremely significant in supporting her faction with wisdom and Magic, remaining safely under the lines of her units. A fundamental pillar of Lothlórien's gameplay that is perfectly fulfilled by her powers (on top of all, her ranged attack and Nenya). She is now absolutely consistent with her true supporting spirit, and I have to say that it was indeed a valuable improvement from 3.8.1, where Galadriel was kind of affected by a general inconsistency caused by the ensemble of her mainly supportive abilities and her direct tank-like attack.

So, if granting Galadriel a unique stance system is meant to add something more to her already-solid concept, I'm not necessarily against it and I am more than willing to try to develop some ideas about it (that are totally yet to be defined). But the core points of your reasoning make everything sound as if Galadriel ought to be a mass slayer or have akin characteristics (meaning that you would be bound to operate a radical change also on her own abilities, if this is the aim) at all costs. I believe you had better not compare her to Gandalf, the Witch King and other heroes of the same kind; she's so different.

matheussn:
+1 to dgsgomes

Agreed  :)

Walküre:
As I previously wrote, if the aim is making her much more protected and enabling her to somehow have more chances of survival against heroes and monsters, I would be very glad to move to the main Galadriel thread and start developing my own ideas, with, hopefully, your and other people's help. What I see, instead, is that you do want to change radically her significant role, even though this doesn't refer to her very conceptual and proper abilities.


--- Zitat von: dgsgomes am 10. Jul 2016, 16:44 ---She is supposed to be a very strong and versatile hero, after all. ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

The problem is exactly that she is really not supposed to be a versatile hero, such as Elrond or Aragorn. That's why I think it's wrong inferring this property regarding her.

If your strategy consists of using her unguarded and alone against the enemy's ranks, this is exactly the opposite one should do. She necessarily needs to be surrounded by your own troops, in order to be able to cast her spells effectively and not to be vanquished by the opposing mass of units. Speaking about heroes, the facts that go against your suggestions are even much more evident and decisive. In case you wanted her to fight boldly against heroes and even kill them, you might be forgetting a not irrelevant aspect: there already is someone WELL capable of that, and it's Celeborn, the White Lord of Lothlórien and commander of the faction's military force  8-)

Celeborn is so much effective in dealing with heroes, and he can also be used, at a certain extent, as a supporting figure for your own troops and as a tough warrior in very heated situations, might the circumstances require this (primarily thanks to some aspects of his own abilities). If you are acquainted with the previous Edain 3.8.1, you would know how Celeborn was immensely versatile and effective as a hero, to the point that he necessarily had to be modified and have his role be defined more clearly in the new Edain 4.0 for balance-related reasons. I remember he would do pretty much anything; he could kill heroes, he was a tank, a mass-slayer and he also had supporting enhancements and his leadership. He was everything  xD

Albeit having been properly adapted to the new mechanics, Celeborn is still well capable of facing the dangerous situations involving heroes and monsters you keep on relating to. I in fact personally find, in my own gaming experience, that the greatest combination you may dispose of is the exact combined usage of Haldir, Celeborn and Galadriel and your own units in battle, rather than using them separately. Haldir provides leadership and supporting features to your soldiers, Galadriel remains behind the lines to cast her powerful Magic and Celeborn intervenes against enemy heroes that might seek to attack the former two and thus disrupt your tactics. Having said this, no way is Galadriel supposed to counter both units and heroes in the way you suggested; her influence on her whole faction is much subtler and deeper, encompassing a wide range of factors and the specificity of her role.

Using the fact that you can't throw her at will against any army or hero is really a poor argument, in my opinion (although I recognise your sincere will of making her much more relevant in the game). This subtle and pervasive power of hers is what the lore exactly shows us in LOTR: she used her Magic to slow the flow of time in her realm and shield it from Sauron, she then headed out only at the last moment, throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur and purifying it (aspect already well present in the game with her Building Destroyer properties), after the armies of Mordor had already been vanquished by Celeborn and the Galadhrim under his command.

If you want to change Galadriel's role so radically, you necessarily have to change her abilities accordingly, lest her concept end up with being highly problematic and not worthy of her character as in the previous version of the Edain Mod.

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