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Autor Thema: Imladris Balance Suggestions  (Gelesen 3199 mal)

Offline Lord of Mordor

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Imladris Balance Suggestions
« am: 31. Jul 2016, 20:38 »
In this thread, you can discuss balancing issues with the Imladris faction. If you feel a balance topic is so big it deserves its own thread, you're free to create one, but for smaller points this thread might be useful.
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Offline Sawman

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #1 am: 3. Aug 2016, 16:42 »
Hello there,

So after playing as and against imladris ai and non ai that they are pretty balanced IMO other than the lore masters and blade masters, both these units need to be toned down a bit.

I think this faction could use some improvements though after playing with them a bit.

1. Imladris probably has the worst spellbook in the game atm, it's just really underwhelming.

2. Some of the hero's are decent ciridan,the twins,glorfindel, but I think some could be looked at such as elrond, I think his abilities are fine the way they are but he just dies way to quickly so an armour or health increase would help with that and now arewen's abilities aren't terrible except her last one which is probably the worst tier 5 ability in the game for a hero, I was fine with strider in 3.8 I thought it was really cool but this ability is worthless compared to that. And then there's gildor that's all I'm going to say

Well that's my thoughts.
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Offline DieWalküre

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #2 am: 3. Aug 2016, 17:50 »
I personally find Imladris' spellbook very effective and suited for the faction: that is, it's well centred on healing features and supporting properties (especially, via the summoning of precious allies). I think it's probably even better than Lothlórien's. Nevertheless, as you may have already read here or in other topics, every spellbook of each faction is likely to be subjected to an overhaul in the future. Particularly, speaking about Imladris, in order to improve Light of Aman much more conceptually and, maybe, to replace completely some other spells.

Regarding the heroes, the faction design of Rivendell was fashioned so that you should use any hero in combination with the others, as a sum of different elements that ultimately gives you the proper strength and strategy you need. Just think about Elrond and Arwen: their most prominent powers are supportive and aimed to aid the other heroes and all the troops of yours as well, enabling you to advance safely. In fact, I often play with them this way, and their powerful cooperation with the soldiers results in an almost unstoppable force (not to mention the addition of the lore-masters' magical abilities).

Elrond is very similar to Galadriel, and you thus ought to use him as the supportive hero he exactly is (among the other units). With the sole difference that Galadriel is extremely focused on ranged support, while the Lord of Imladris helps his army directly in battle with a warrior/general-type approach.

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #3 am: 3. Aug 2016, 18:23 »
What exactly do you want to tone down with lore masters and blade masters? A bit more elaboration would be great. Blade masters are pretty nuts, lore masters I'm quite fine with though.

1. Imladris probably has the worst spellbook in the game atm, it's just really underwhelming.
Imladris Spellbook is fantastic. The first two rows are the strongest in the game.
-> Please elaborate, statements like "this is the worst" don't help.

I agree that the flood is a bit underwhelming and I don't like the eagles either. But eagles are being looked at anyway, from what I know, which leaves the flood, which just needs to do a bit more damage. No need to instagib everything, but atm it is underwhelming. Still can't beat Loriens's spellbook though :P

Gildor is great - best scouting ability in the game, can creep trolls and offers crowdcontrol at level three already.
Elrond is more durable than Gandalf. He even gets better armour at level five. Maybe pay a bit more attention? ;)
Healing spells are quite strong on Imladris units since their health is so high. No need to change it imho, Arwen is strong enough already.

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Offline Odysseus

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #4 am: 3. Aug 2016, 18:58 »
Zitat
Imladris Spellbook is fantastic. The first two rows are the strongest in the game.
-> Please elaborate, statements like "this is the worst" don't help.
Proceeds to do the same thing by not elaborating :P. You have to give concrete examples on each spell in these two rows if you want to give true elaboration. You did on the healing though so good job mate, keep it up ;).

To be frank, all this talk about which spellbooks are bad or good is utter nonesense. All spellbooks have strengths and weaknesses and you have to tailor your choices to the situation. This is strengthened by the fact that most factions have very similar spellbooks, with horns, land spells, arrow volleys and weather spells etc., and that the similarity is thankfully somewhat contested by variations and variants in effects of essentially the same spell(s) in design. However, what you could say is that some spells are not performing in their intended context. Like the eagles, or the recently removed barricade spell for Mordor. I can't wait for the future spellbook tweaks, they will greatly shake up the current matchups, I am certain of it.

If Gildor would ever need a buff, which I highly doubt, I would personally like to see his cost reduced from 250 to 200, and nothing else. His spells are very powerful if used correctly, the only relatively questionable spell being the Elven cloak, but basically a Palantir vision spell without having to spend any Spellpoints is so huge (In competitive play, vision is everything, like battlefield intelligence in real life), and it scales very well into the game. Any person claiming that vision is underwhelming has no idea what they are talking about :P.

Finally, what if we switch the Blademasters with the banner upgrade? So Blademasters at level 3, and the banners at level 2? I think that would solve the apparent issue. You can counter spam factions with Dunedain (the outpost itself being awesome already) and cavalry.

To be honest, Imladris is arguably the most balanced faction Edain has released so far, clear powerspikes in the game, their strengths offset by low model count, a spellbook that is almost perfectly alligned with Imladris' playstyle, and the list could go on. Lorewise, I personally preferred the old concept, with them being unable to level and stuff and all veteran-like, but this, in turn, resulted in critical gameplay hiccups that had to be fixed, so I'd like to say that the current design is probably better gameplay-wise, and easier to adjust when something has to be improved.
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Offline Ealendril

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #5 am: 3. Aug 2016, 19:01 »
Zitat
To be honest, Imladris is arguably the most balanced faction Edain has released so far, clear powerspikes in the game, their strengths offset by low model count, a spellbook that is almost perfectly alligned with Imladris' playstyle, and the list could go on
Thanks for the praise! Great to hear that. xD

Offline Sawman

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #6 am: 3. Aug 2016, 19:20 »
nothing wrong with lore masters? Are you mad? let me just STUN your entire army 4 times real quick including heros btw while I slaughter your army, nothing wrong at all am I right?

anyways I probably should elaborate so for the spell book the hobbits for there power point cost don't amount to other 2 point summons such as the hobbits for arnor or the orcs of mount gram for angmar

bombidal could have a little more health, dies pretty quick

last alliance isn't that great for the time that you have them, they just don't get a lot done.

gildors first ability is all he is useful for where as other scouts can be useful late game

the armour buff that Elrond gets was meant to be included when I said he still dies to quick and sure he has more health than Gandalf but Gandalf has abilities to keep enemies away where as Elrond has one to do that and for his whirlwind hes got to be fighting for it to be of any affect

arewen is still bad her heal is the only thing shes got going for her and in case you haven't noticed asfolf is exactly the same as glorfidels mounted ability and how do you think her last ability is good its like a worse version of the old Denethor captain and she has to be level 8 to even use it 



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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #7 am: 3. Aug 2016, 20:22 »
nothing wrong with lore masters? Are you mad? let me just STUN your entire army 4 times real quick including heros btw while I slaughter your army, nothing wrong at all am I right?
There are four different lore masters with eight different abilities, six different possible combinations who again have a unique ability. So we're at ten different units with 14 different abilities now. You sound as if lore masters in general are broken, which they are not. As far as I can tell (because you did not specify whatsoever in neither of your posts), you're talking about the air-light-combo and their special ability? Clarification would be great here so I can actually give you an answer. Thanks a lot for staying polite.


Zitat
Imladris Spellbook is fantastic. The first two rows are the strongest in the game.
-> Please elaborate, statements like "this is the worst" don't help.
Proceeds to do the same thing by not elaborating :P.
Or maybe I'm just repeating something to show what I'm talking about. ;)


Arwen is a decent fighter, has access to a horse, can heal and buff nearby heroes and can make enemies flee. For a hero so cheap I'd say she's pretty damn good, yeah. Allowing your units to permanently heal is just the icing on the cake.

So when Elrond is already one of the tankier heroes in the game with his armour boost he still dies too quick for your liking? I just don't get that, he is supposed to be a mass slayer after all. Being more or less vulnerable to hero killers is basically part of the job description. And units shouldn't catch him anyway, he's got a horse and his flood does knockback...

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Offline Odysseus

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #8 am: 3. Aug 2016, 20:42 »
Zitat
Or maybe I'm just repeating something to show what I'm talking about. ;)
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Offline Hamanathnath

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #9 am: 4. Aug 2016, 01:28 »
Might as well jump into this discussion. 

The Lore-Masters have the potential of being very problematic.  If a person only buys 1 or 2, and doesn't go for a Combo that is too strong together, they are fine.  But in numbers, they can make fighting Imladris incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

I really like the abilities the Lore-Master have, but what you have to understand is that Lore-Masters don't have a limit past their argueably low command point cost.  The potential if having an any of those abilties used 4-5 or even more times every battle is too much, such as an incredible amount of heals for Water Lore-Masters, and especially the Speed Boost and Knockback Immunity for the Wind Lore Masters, allowing you to make escapes from spells like Army of the Dead whenever you want. 

And that doesn't even count the Combo Abilities, which are some of the strongest in the game, with Light-Wind and Earth-Wind being the Strongest in my opinion.

I think making the Lore-Masters cost 90 command points each, as well as nerfing certain Lore-Master abilties, will make them a lot more balanced. 

Blade-Masters are definitely way too strong right now.  Lowering their damage and making the AoE only hit basic units should fix them though.  Nothing more to say about them.

And other then that, Imladris is an incredibly balanced faction in my opinion, maybe leaning on the under-powered side in certain aspects.  Credit to the Edain Team for making the pretty much all the units pretty much perfectly balanced compared to other factions. 

Just a few other things though:

I agree with Sawman that Imladris has the least powerful Spellbook in the game currently.  And that doesn't mean that the Spellbook is outright bad, it's just less good then others. 

-The Hobbit summon is very underwhelming compared to other summons.  They are okay when they switch to Rocks, But either way they so quick to everything.  I think this is the opportunity to add Biblo to Imladris.  Not only could he make this summon better (Maybe with a leadership), but this could be the best way to implement Bilbo into the faction.

-Tom Bombadil dies to quick too everything.  Make him harder to kill and he will be better.

-The Last Alliance is slightly too weak in terms of strength, and goes away way too quickly.  I think giving the summon 1 group of Imladris Archers, which are in the summon if I remember correctly, and doubling the timer will make the Summon much better.

-The Flood just needs to do more damage, or at least have some sort of other effect.

Arwen's last two abilities really need to be changed in my opinion.  Noro Lim, Asfaloth is too similar to Glorfindel's Wind Runner, and Blessed Banner is incredibly underwhelming.  I think Blessed Banner would work much better if it was similar to Eomer's Debuff, but instead of Debuffing, it would place the Banner on the Floor which would Buff/Health your units.

And lastly, I think making Ranger Upgrades only allowed to be bought while Halbarad is nearby is a bit weird and inconvenient.

And that's it.  Great work on the faction so far.

Offline Elite KryPtik

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #10 am: 4. Aug 2016, 01:43 »

Agree on all points here except that Hobbit Summon is weak. They can DESTROY heroes if you target them with rocks. I definitely think it would be cool to have a Bilbo summon added in to it, but as they stand they are not weak if you use them as a hero killer.

Also, just reading the earlier posts Elendil, you started off against Sawman in a perceivably "sassy" kind of a manner, another term might be know-it-all. It might not have seemed this way to you, not being a native english speaker, but it does read that way for us. That of course still does not justify a rude response, so I'll just say keep it polite for all parties :)
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Aug 2016, 01:50 von DieWalküre »
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Offline DieWalküre

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #11 am: 4. Aug 2016, 02:17 »
Also, just reading the earlier posts Elendil, you started off against Sawman in a perceivably "sassy" kind of a manner, another term might be know-it-all. It might not have seemed this way to you, not being a native english speaker, but it does read that way for us. That of course still does not justify a rude response, so I'll just say keep it polite for all parties :)

I personally don't see anything that negative, know-it-all, slightly provocative or harsh in Elendil's response. Of course, heated debates can always take place and 'spice up' the dynamics of the forum a bit, but this is not something forbidden by any rule: that's why I honestly decided not to intervene to calm down the waters a bit (as Moderators are supposed to do). In addition, I would say that Sawman's initial post was not so much a good start to develop a discussion from, given that constructive criticism was not provided other than 'this is the worst...' or 'that is totally worthless'. But I am nonetheless very pleased to see that he took time to illustrate his considerations in better terms (the forum exactly enables anyone to do so).

Also, I regard the whole 'language issue' not relevant too. Yes, we are not all English native speakers, but I'm quite sure that many of us are acquainted enough with forum-related customs and manners to discern the difference between being polite and being rude, and to provide reasonable arguments in our replies (especially, members of the internal staff). If this may ease your concern a bit, I will continue to follow this topic carefully as I do with everyone else (and restore the order in case it were needed)  :)

P.S. I took the liberty to use the spoiler feature for your long quotation, as the rules often recommend.

Offline Elite KryPtik

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #12 am: 4. Aug 2016, 02:22 »
P.S. I took the liberty to use the spoiler feature for your long quotation, as the rules often recommend.

Thats my bad forgetting to use the quote feature. As for my above post, that was just me explaining why Sawman got a little heated, because from my perspective while reading Elendil's first reply there were a couple points that seemed off. The biggest one being the "Maybe pay a bit more attention ;)" with the inclusion of the winky face sounds very sassy or "know-it-allish" as I said. I was just trying to clarify what might have frustrated Sawman. Regardless I'm quite sure it shall remain civil, no need to worry :)
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Offline Amandil7

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #13 am: 4. Aug 2016, 03:41 »
nothing wrong with lore masters? Are you mad? let me just STUN your entire army 4 times real quick including heros btw while I slaughter your army, nothing wrong at all am I right?

anyways I probably should elaborate so for the spell book the hobbits for there power point cost don't amount to other 2 point summons such as the hobbits for arnor or the orcs of mount gram for angmar

bombidal could have a little more health, dies pretty quick

last alliance isn't that great for the time that you have them, they just don't get a lot done.

gildors first ability is all he is useful for where as other scouts can be useful late game

the armour buff that Elrond gets was meant to be included when I said he still dies to quick and sure he has more health than Gandalf but Gandalf has abilities to keep enemies away where as Elrond has one to do that and for his whirlwind hes got to be fighting for it to be of any affect

arewen is still bad her heal is the only thing shes got going for her and in case you haven't noticed asfolf is exactly the same as glorfidels mounted ability and how do you think her last ability is good its like a worse version of the old Denethor captain and she has to be level 8 to even use it


I actually agree with most of what you said, Imladris heroes aren't very useful or have as clear defined roles (compared to other factions) and why waste precious resources on them when they die within seconds esp Elrond and a so called Tank like Glorfindel. Gildor is only useful for his first ability, I'd pick Merry/Pippin over him since he dies to goblin creeps.

Loremasters are a menace when fighting the AI, they come in huge numbers and quickly disorient any defense you might have.

As for the Spellbook, I think the first two tier powers are good, the last two are a bit problematic. I usually just go for light of aman, because Bombadil isn't worth his cost and Flying units seem to serve no purpose in this mod. Flood needs more damage against buildings and Last Alliance needs to last longer.

Offline Draco100000

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #14 am: 4. Aug 2016, 12:07 »
It is strange no one is complaining about the fact that the Duneadain Camp is the most worth-cost building in the game. I mean, you can recruit ridicolously cheap elites, in a ridicolouysly cheap outpost. ( It should be balanced because standard units cost more)....

Why I should buy any standard unit more than blademasters( Incredible area dmg) and eventually veterans of the Last aliance for doing my game, when I can rush this outpost, with the best defense, healing and very good recruitment rate. I feel weaker the standard recruitment of Imladris and I dont know, i dont feel good having to get an outpost to get my average strenght. All others factions ( except rohan) dont need an outpost to get their usual strenght.


Imladris is a faction that changes a lot the game mechanics, but I thought you would change more the lore masters, this is just like 3.8.1 but with 2 guys dead per battallion, still very very powerfull, combos still being OP and obviously the virtually gg in Lategame with Upgrades, veterans, glorfindel and loremasters is secured.( 1 solution would be consider them as werewolves or ents 1000 cost)


Amazing update but needs some more polishment, i feel imladris as counterpart of Rohan. Rohan strong in early, outpost dependant in Late. Imladris strong in Late, outpost dependant in Early. PD: I dont understand 1 battallion at start.. ( If they would be blademasters it would be fine as strong as they are now  :D)

About heros, well I dont care about them so much ( im not feeling that bad Imladris heros, they are just as weak as all heros) except Gildor, that I find very good.... too good. The song is the best support abilitie I have seen, combined with his tactical vision... Probably this guy  combined with the Imladris feeling in General, is making me loving this Faction more in this version than in the previous one.

 As always great job and keep releaqsing amazing stuff ;)