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Autor Thema: Imladris Balance Suggestions  (Gelesen 3329 mal)

Offline Ealendril

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #15 am: 4. Aug 2016, 15:26 »
Zitat
cheap elites
Dunedain aren't eite units, they are regular units. Every elven unit is defined as elite. ;)

Zitat
I actually agree with most of what you said, Imladris heroes aren't very useful or have as clear defined roles (compared to other factions)
Of course they have defined roles, I cant follow you. Arwen is a supporter, Glorfindel tank, Twins heroslayer (one of the best in game), Gildor is a scout, Halbarad is a dunedain supporter and Elrond is a mix between massslayer and tank -> as suggested by our fans.

Zitat
So when Elrond is already one of the tankier heroes in the game with his armour boost he still dies too quick for your liking? I just don't get that, he is supposed to be a mass slayer after all. Being more or less vulnerable to hero killers is basically part of the job description. And units shouldn't catch him anyway, he's got a horse and his flood does knockback...
+1

Zitat
I personally don't see anything that negative, know-it-all, slightly provocative or harsh in Elendil's response
+1

Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #16 am: 4. Aug 2016, 19:04 »
@Draco: Imladris only has one batallion at the start to stop you from just running over to your enemy and pooping on everything he has - we tried several things during the beta phase and this solution works out really well, I think. I have to say though, I don't think Imladris absolutely needs an outpost early on, I've done quite well without one^^
The amount of archers defending the outpost just make it way too strong defensively and too good overall, so it's never a bad choice really, since it also produces money and can heal.


As for my above post, that was just me explaining why Sawman got a little heated, because from my perspective while reading Elendil's first reply there were a couple points that seemed off. The biggest one being the "Maybe pay a bit more attention ;)" with the inclusion of the winky face sounds very sassy or "know-it-allish" as I said.
That certainly wasn't my intention, I put the wink there for that reason: to make it sound not as harsh.

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Offline Amandil7

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #17 am: 4. Aug 2016, 23:34 »

Zitat
Of course they have defined roles, I cant follow you. Arwen is a supporter, Glorfindel tank, Twins heroslayer (one of the best in game), Gildor is a scout, Halbarad is a dunedain supporter and Elrond is a mix between massslayer and tank -> as suggested by our fans.


Forgive me for saying this, but as an English speaker (and a psychiatrist in training!) I agree with Elite KryPtik. Every time I say something here I feel like I'm attacked or pounced upon. Isn't the whole point of these forums to get feedback? The response is usually so weird that you think twice about even carrying on the conversation (and I'm not talking about Elendil). Just the tone is a little stand-offish sometimes. We all love the mod and are trying to be constructive here. :)

Offline Odysseus

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #18 am: 5. Aug 2016, 01:27 »
Most Germans are quite direct usually, they don't beat around the bush. Just keep in mind that the tone of debate employed by the majority of the team and the German users is not intended as denigrating in any form, even if you feel it does. No hard feelings, right?

A debate tends to get people excited more often than not, so do not fear the pouncing nor the assaults, you must never relent :P!
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Online Walküre

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #19 am: 5. Aug 2016, 04:41 »
Isn't the whole point of these forums to get feedback?

No, it's not just that. Getting or giving feedback is a part of a more comprehensive sum of many other factors. Not only does the forum ensure people to express themselves, but it also encourages them to debate among each other and to exchange opinions (particularly, when it comes to finding a compromise out of different proposals or polishing existing concepts). In another perspective, these features can also lead to heated discussions or little 'skirmishes' among the very users (something that one could easily see as a harsh and very confrontational climate throughout some threads).

I believe that the latter aspect is eventually as fundamental as the other ones indeed, in order to keep Modding Union alive; the challenge is rather how to control it and turn it into constructive activity, lest everything degenerate in open clashes. Furthermore, instead of weird or bitter replies, I sincerely think that what often causes resentment is the fact that some people find it hard to accept that their suggestions/remarks could be countered by other people and also proven inappropriate for the game (very direct answers that are usually triggered by not so consistent posts, of a similar kind of the initial comment that started this debate). I'm not referring to you specifically, but to the general experience I have had so far as a Moderator.

I'm well aware that this might probably be one of the most difficult characteristics to get acquainted with, but it's nonetheless vital to the forum as well. On a higher level, Administrators and Moderators have in fact the authority to censure people and to reject proposals whenever they deem it necessary (that is, closing topics or delete comments). One can't thus expect every single post to be accepted anyway.

As Odysseus suggested, you shouldn't let criticism (when it's reasonable) constrain your will of participating in debates: getting used to presenting ideas, defending them and wisely replying to other people's responses will toughen you up concretely and it will certainly give you overall much more confidence in regards of your personal forum attendance. Keep also in mind that insults and a manifestly aggressive behaviour are against the rules and so will be dealt with accordingly  :)

Most Germans are quite direct usually, they don't beat around the bush.

The English Community has had too its own renowned record in being brutally honest at times and setting up very 'dynamic' discussions  xD

Also, speaking about brutal (but needed) attitudes, I have to remind all of you that we are now clearly diverting too much from the topic of this thread. If anyone is willing to continue to discuss this theme, the Website Feedback board is the proper place (and I would be very pleased to join it too).

Offline SP19XX

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #20 am: 12. Aug 2016, 19:08 »
So having played with / against Imladris quite a few times now I have to say the faction overall seems great in terms of balance baring a few issues here and there. The main one though I believe is Gildor.

The problem I find with Gildor is that as he is the weakest scout hero (in terms of combat) in the entire game right now being as he's the only exclusively ranged scout hero at present (barring Rumil however Orophin makes up for that). I think he should get a damage buff or some form of melee attack (perhaps he uses a melee weapon when he's locked in close combat as opposed to a direct method of melee similar to Denethor).

The main issue he also has when compared to the other scouts is that because he is in fact ranged unlike the others, who can gain access to their abilities quite quickly and become a combat force since they can creep alongside the starter units, and in all honesty, I find his abilities (barring his global reveal) to be well and truly underwhelming.

His Song loses a lot of it's potency because he will always be behind your force, meaning the slow down effect isn't going to do much unless enemies have pushed through to Gildor himself (though it is good for getting him out alive).

His arrow comes far too late (level 7, which as I outlined above is problematic when you take into account that Rivendell needs a lot more work than the other factions to even get it's ranged units out with a total cost of 2000, excluding Gildor's own cost and then a further 600 to even give Gildor some leveling support from the backline unless you manage to rush the dunedain, and even that still requires a minimum investment of 1400).

In comparison to the other scout heroes, Gildor tends to gain 1 level to their 2-4 from personal experience.


There's just one other thing I feel like I should address even though it's not a major issue, nor is it really required, but I personally feel that the cost of Rivendell's  Spearmen should be decreased to 500, perhaps at a slight decrease to their health as in this method it's at least viable to get a unit of them out on a 1k start to assist with creeping, while allowing an external farm to be created as well, since while most factions tend to focus their scout heroes in the early game, for the reasons outlined above, 99% of the time I don't find Gildor to even be worth recruiting until you have a level 2 barracks, and at that point his purpose is more or less gone.

Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #21 am: 12. Aug 2016, 22:41 »
The problem I find with Gildor is that as he is the weakest scout hero (in terms of combat) in the entire game right now being as he's the only exclusively ranged scout hero at present (barring Rumil however Orophin makes up for that). I think he should get a damage buff or some form of melee attack (perhaps he uses a melee weapon when he's locked in close combat as opposed to a direct method of melee similar to Denethor).

The main issue he also has when compared to the other scouts is that because he is in fact ranged unlike the others, who can gain access to their abilities quite quickly and become a combat force since they can creep alongside the starter units, and in all honesty, I find his abilities (barring his global reveal) to be well and truly underwhelming.

His Song loses a lot of it's potency because he will always be behind your force, meaning the slow down effect isn't going to do much unless enemies have pushed through to Gildor himself (though it is good for getting him out alive).
Him being ranged is awesome for Imladris. He can kill trolls while your starting unit gets free settlements and/or kills an easy creep like orcs before destroying the troll creep.
The other two points I don't quite get tbh... did you ever try to, you know, push him up alongside your units? Because that solves your entire problem^^

He may be the weakest scout hero in terms of fighting, but he has the best scouting ability in the game and is arguably the best at supporting your units, too.

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Offline Sawman

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #22 am: 29. Aug 2016, 00:27 »
Imladris walls and gate seem to be very weak on their fortress compared to everyone else's walls, it take only 3 Gondor trebuchet shots to take down one segment of the wall where as other factions take a lot more, not only that by the time you take down one segment the other segments around it are already at half health because of the massive splash damage they take.

Rohan walls are harder to take down and they are made of wood :)

please add amour accordingly 

 

Offline Ealendril

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #23 am: 29. Aug 2016, 09:10 »
They have the same armor and health points.

Offline Julio229

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #24 am: 9. Sep 2016, 03:26 »
I hope Loremasters are nerfed in the next version, because they are too OP right now. I was playing a 4-Factions free for all, and the only factions left were my Imladris and another one. I had an 1000 command point fully upgraded army and I was destroying their castle, when Lore Masters happened, and I lost my whole army, just like that. Both Loremasters and Towers are too powerful right now. It's strange to see your enemy destroy your whole army and kill your Heroes just with Loremasters, catapults and towers.

Offline Odysseus

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #25 am: 9. Sep 2016, 04:17 »
It's not that strange if you blob up your troops, which I presume is what happened. In almost all games I have ever watched, even the highest level in the olden BFME I and BFME II tournament days, even there, blobbing in some way occurs.

That said, Loremasters will probably be reworked in the future, as Ea mentioned some time ago. They are indeed overperforming.

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Offline Julio229

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #26 am: 9. Sep 2016, 04:36 »
Blob up, like sending them one by one? Sorry if I'm wrong, I didn't know the meaning!

I sent most of them together, while a few were destroying an outpost. Those were the ones that survived at first, but the majority of the army got destroyed. I didn't have Arwen to support (I don't usually recruit her), so maybe that was one of the problems.

I'm happy to hear about Loremasters being probably reworked! I like using them, but it gets boring because they are so overpowered.

Offline Tirano

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #27 am: 3. Dez 2016, 18:16 »
when a good player of Imladris start to spam swords since the beginning of the game don't matter the factions you play, you can´t fight your main force against his main force, and im cool with that, you dont need to fight all the time you can arras him and get more map control and then when you get more money igual the forces and win a fight... but the problem is when Imldris rush they libray and get the ability of speed, this added to the wind lord master ability make them insane fast, even more than cavalry and you cant run from them forcing you to lose the fight and probably the game (Consider that I omited all the slowdowns and stuns that habe the faction).

also i would like to add that the library is a little broken because when the library have all the upgrades give you 75 resources and in late game if you replacements all the farms for libraries it is insane the amount of money that you can get! 
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Dez 2016, 05:14 von Tirano »

Offline Sawman

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #28 am: 13. Dez 2016, 13:40 »
Imladris swords spam isn't hard to counter considering that all the other player needs to do is spam archers to counter it.

Imladris really struggles against factions who can get archers off the start from a barracks(angmar,mordor,And especially lothlorien) and then the rest of the factions it is fairly balanced between them. I think allowing Imladris to purchase archers off the start might fix this problem because chances are that your archers could counter or balance out the others archers.

  And as for the library 75 I think is the perfect number for the library at level 3 because you have to take into consideration that the total to get it level 3 is 3000 resources and you could spam them after that but I feel like Imladris needs that because they really don't have a good way to boost their eco

Another problem I have with imladris is their spell book, their tier 1 and 2 spell powers are good but the ones I have problems with are Tom,flood,and last alliance

Tom's problem is that he dies way to fast, don't get me wrong his stats are great but an increase in armour would probably fix this.

Floods problem is that it's only good on army of the dead and orcs, I think the ET tried to buff it but it wasn't enough

The last alliances problem is that it doesn't last long enough and that all the until are terrible late game and all the hero's except isldur are also terrible. Increasing the timer and adding more units to the summon and making the hero's better would make this power more viable.

Just some thoughts

Offline [BMD]Dmitry

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Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #29 am: 28. Dez 2016, 07:18 »
Hello! Thank you for your titanic work, for the wonderful mod! I play The Battle for Middle-earth on the network since 2006. Your mod has become for me a practical bfme-3... The only mod, which have serious balance.

Since the release of 4.4, I play only for Imladris, trying to learn how to play, against any faction.
I play at a fairly good level, recently at the tournament came in second place of the 16 most active players in gameranger.

Imladris well balanced against Isengard, Angmar, Gondor.

Lorien:

Imladris at the start has only one detachment of swordsmen, you can quickly purchase a second ..
However, Lorien may have at the start of so many groups that force swordsmen Imladris lose its value: one unit Lorien runs, and the second attack from the back, archers shoot ...
But, at the beginning of the game, perhaps one troop swordsmen to kill the troll, received the money, do one cavalry troop.

Okay, so, with a good micro control, in the early game Imladris can withstand Lorien...
However, if Lorien builds an outpost, it is practically impossible to fight!

Exclusive spearmen, minstrels, Galadriel capture, the capture of the palantir roots, capture arrows of  Haldir (recovers a very fast), the capture of Radagast. Because of this, the cavalry can not neutralize the archers.
Maybe all this is justified for Lorien, towards to other factions, but very expensive units of Imladris...

Imladris can not lose a lot of units, it is fatal for him.

Lorien has large and inexpensive units of outpost, star arrows of very quickly destroy costly troops of Imladris.
Loremasters not solve the problem: they are just as scared of arrows of Haldir, stop of Galadriel, skill of palantir.   

Ered Luin:

Catastrophe! At the start of the game, the dwarves have the speed, have many units, cheaper, strong enough, the crows of the Palantir will help them to easily kill swordsmen of Imladris, and you can not escape! (soldiers of Imladris do not have the speed at the beginning of the game.
Of course, you can start in the cavalry for 1600 (800 + 800 stable building unit cost) but you yourselves understand ...
Well, you do not got a very strong opponent, and you miraculously survived in the early game.
But there is Torin ... he is able to destroy many swordsmen of Imladris, even with improved armor and blades of Erigion
Of course, Torin will not fight alone, he will have the support units, less expensive than in of Imladris.

But the main problem at the start of the game, rather than Thorin.

Iron Hills:
Perhaps, but extremely difficult.
In the melee compete with these guys is impossible, and archers of Imladris unavailable, second level of the barracks, only 5 (!) soldiers in troop and take the limit of 120 (!). Arrows of Mitlond good, but the cost of the three units + Tower - 4300. And these three groups is not enough in the late game. Archers Dúnedain not solve the problem, they are built too long to get the fiery darts too hard, goats destroy them very rapidly)
Well, fire catapults destroying the archers quickly and catapults of Imladris!
And, the soldiers of iron hills can get together in a pile around the catapults + iron hills are resistant to the consternation (loremasters not work)

Mordor:
In the late game Imladris good job, but at the start of Imladris has not masters of the blade, so the  free orcs surround and kill swordsmen (by means of poison and Gorbag eye of Sauron) are free, numerous groups of orcs sent to many farms destroy them, and Imladris can not have a sufficient number of troops to protect them.

Rohan:
Available cavalry, cheap peasants ... Imladris lacks pikemen units (cost of unit 600), a lot of farmers groups establish control of the map, destroying farms, and the horsemen of Rohan already at the start suppresses infantry of Imladris. All this is happening even before the possible hiring Dúnedain,
because Rohan may employ its forces immediately, Imladris need outpost (800 + cost of grade for the possibility of hiring troops) Money + time.

In conclusion, I want to say that all this applies to games between equally strong players. Of course, you can win the race strong - weak. But we want to have equal chances. Imladris newest faction and needs correcting, she is beautiful, all the heroes, the warriors are exceptionally well designed and made in style, I was surprised - this is the only race in which I  love every unit and I'm really looking forward to when Imladris can fight all factions on equal chances!