27. Mai 2017, 06:30 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Imladris Balance Suggestions  (Gelesen 2697 mal)

Offline DieWalküre

  • Moderator
  • Lehenfürst
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 2.254
  • Goddess of War and Wisdom.
    • DieWalküre's profile on ModDB
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #30 am: 28. Dez 2016, 14:43 »

It should be better if these balance-related considerations were merged with the proper thread, which focuses on balance solely.

--- MERGED ---

Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Eroberer Osgiliaths
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.782
  • German, Motherfucker! Do you speak it?
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #31 am: 30. Dez 2016, 18:11 »
Every faction has a hard time against Lorien when you use all of Lorien's tools. There's just too much stuff that's op, like Haldir's arrow. In any case you absolutely need Cirdan for his fear resistance in this matchup and the Lindon archers for their leadership. Other than that, get an Air Lore Master for the speedbuff and then try to get into melee. Still tricky, but from my experience it's the best chance you have.

Can't really say much about the dwarves, Ered Luin's speedboost is broken while I haven't played enough matches against Iron Hills. Both Mordor and Rohan are very interesting matchups, I think. They are well balanced and the longer you survive as Imladris, the better your chances get. I like to play those :)

#TeamElendil

Offline [BMD]Dmitry

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 10
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #32 am: 31. Dez 2016, 05:42 »
In many ways I agree with you. However, once again, Imladris lose if it suffered losses, the units are very expensive. Cirdan very helpful. I hope his skill Protection from the fear will remain in 4.5
Cirdan can quickly die (Celeborn, Ents, guards Thranduil)
And then the battle will be lost, and to recover from the loss of the army Imladris is not capable

Lorien archers have a lot of soldiers in each squad and a very high damage stellar arrows.
Imladris swords die instantly!
Lorien outpost provides rapid mobilization, units come one after the other.

I think the main problem is the balance of Imladris - the lack of available archers; compare: galadrim too elite, but to get them you need to build one building for 750; The squad of 10 soldiers, they are very strong, can switch between the bow and the sword (strong anti-heroes) costs 600.

To get the archers Imladris to build a library of 700+ 1200 update in the library - almost 2,000, not counting the cost of the unit (600) in Group 5 soldiers, they take 120 limit not have armor (Galadhrim have at once)

And what Imladris with an ax throwers Dwarves of Erebor? Swordsmen, arrows dunadayn they kill with one stroke, in the beginning of the game the initiative slipping out of the hands of Imladris, gnomes capture points on the map, build a catapult grady ax throwers.

The game (1on1 and team) may include a variety of situations, not always available to the outpost, and that? Imladris deprived of archers, the resources spent on expensive swordsmen, despair (if you have an experienced opponent)

In the tournament, which was recently, of 16 people only me played for Imladris, guys are afraid to play this faction.

Any errors, lost 2 squad - minus 1000 resources at the beginning of the game it is a colossal loss.

I'm not complaining, it is a feature of Imladris, costly, but strong.

But please do not deprive Imladris tactical diversity, archers should be available from the barracks level 1, these small groups without armor grade, without gold arrows and so expensive (600) will not be op.

Offline Mogat

  • LPS-Sieger
  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 137
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #33 am: 31. Dez 2016, 10:16 »
You are bringing up some valid points here, however I wouldn't see the balance problem on the imladris side. First of all I think this faction is overall pretty good balanced and can be played with success against every other faction except Lothlorien and Ered Luin as you already pointed out.
(However its much more difficult to play as you are not allowed to loose any unit or get caugh offguard at any time. Therefore you have one of the most powerful scouting skills of the game via gidor)

I think the edain team is already fully aware of Loriens OPness and will look over it, but here some outtakes:
- Haldirs arrow is realoading with horrendous speed,
- Legolas knives wrecks with his abnormously high aoe every melee army (not that significant vs. Imla) and in archer mode he can bring down any heroe.
- Galadhrim have crazy damage and are pretty cheap for their effectiveness as you pointed out, and cannot be countered at all (archers --> Galadhrim are especially effective against them; cavalry  :D --> Galadhrim take 2+ times to run over due to their crazy hitpoints --> every other unit gets taken out from range or slaughtered in melee combat.
Combined with the most powerful Anti-cav pikes in the game, the fastest pikes in the game, the knockback resistance from the singers, crazy amounts of stuns and the elkriders lothlorien is practically immune to cavalry since the midgame. And there we have it. An archer faction which with silverthorn wrecks everything, immune to cav.

Additionally, the Lothlorien base is basically invulnerable. You can bunker with your archers in your base and since Caras galadhon guards outrange catapults sit there without danger of beeing attacked. In my opinion thats even the most significant point and should be looked upon first by the team.

So much to the faction of lothorien. You see, its the faction itself which is broken against any other faction if played correctly. I agree that vs. Imladris its especially strong because of Imladris archer-weakness, but this remains the problem of imladris. On how to maybe think to counter that I agree with what Elendil said above.

In your next point you mention dwarven axethrowers. They are pretty overpowered too at the moment, mainly becaues they profit from the blades upgrade like the rest of your army too, and because their damage counts as melee damage.
This strategy however is countered simply by Imladris cavalry and Imladris agression. Against an erebor player you need to constantly keep his army (especially his axthrowers) small so that when he finally reaches forged blades he doesn't have enough units to upgrade with it. If he does indeed manage to either win ealry engagements or get a big axthrower clump its pretty difficult for an imladris, but thats the job that needs to be done: keep him small.

Ered Luin is too strong in gereral, but against imla its a freewin.

The other matchups are more balanced and pretty interesting to play as imladris and quite winnable.
I am not so sure about your archer-proposal. If archers would be already in level one barracks I feel imla would turn into this ugly archer faction immune to cavalry, although its rather supposed to be the strong melee elite faction. I think its well balanced via the dunedain archers to which you have access through the outpost and the extremely strong lindon archers in the tower; tactical diversity is available. (The only faction against which this change would be needed is lorien anyways, so lets see how it goes after they are nerfed.) In some other matchups I feel this change could break alot.
« Letzte Änderung: 31. Dez 2016, 10:20 von Mogat »


Cogito, ergo sum

Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Eroberer Osgiliaths
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.782
  • German, Motherfucker! Do you speak it?
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #34 am: 31. Dez 2016, 12:59 »
Now go write that in the Lorien Balance thread, Mogat. ;)

Axe throwers in general benefited greatly from the range tweaks that archers got. They used to do more damage and have a better damage type in exchange for not being able to shoot as far as archers, but that has now been thrown out of the window and they are just better than archers hands down (except Lorien, duh). Erebor axe throwers with their superb ability should now be considered op on paper, but you can play around them. Erebor is quite a weak faction imho, Axe Throwers carry them quite a bit. Bait your opponent into overcomitting, then punish his slower army by killing it on retreat. Other than that, try to get heavy armor; it makes their ability go from +50% damage to 0%.

I agree with Mogat concerning your archer proposal - Imladris really should be the melee superiority faction, with the strongest melee units right out of the gate, fantastic cavalry and lots of healing abilities to support your units. I like how they play in general, I actually think Imladris is a bit too strong too quickly  xD

#TeamElendil

Offline [BMD]Dmitry

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 10
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #35 am: 31. Dez 2016, 22:58 »
Mogat, I have heard of you, as one of the strongest players in edain mod; If you are playing for Imladris and win Erebor - it does not mean that the game is a good balance, it can only mean that your level of micro-control is much higher than the opponent.

I spent a battle for Imladris against all races, for more than 100 hours on the network, with strong players and medium-sized

If I win for Imladris Gondor (played with Goodfella) with a score of 12: 0 but weak players, they take Erebor and ...
Of course, I use the cavalry (but ax throwers available dwarves at once, and the cavalry is 800 + 800 = 1600 (if done early in the game) dwarves on such amount can buy two outpost
In addition, the ax throwers easy to kill cavalry, and pikemen dwarves very malicious - they are very hurt and stop the cavalry.

Ax throwers kill all: swordsmen, cavalry, archers (even super expensive archers of Mitlond), buildings.

Learn armor? Dwarfs also get improved armor and axes.

Yes, dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Mountains slow, but Edain mod 4 has a static construction system (outposts, farm) and it often happens that you can not escape, it is necessary to protect.

You say Imladris to be a fraction of the strong melee swordsmen? But, at least, dwarves with the Iron Hills - exactly stronger. It's strange, the soldiers Imladris more expensive, have two improvements blades (swords Erigiona) but weaker than dwarves! I checked, even debuff loremasters, elves lose in close combat, and catapult fire killed all the archers almost instantly.

Mogat, about Lorien, you said as Bud then read my thoughts, I agree with you completely.

My suggestions for Imladris:

I think many will agree with me that it is necessary to increase the damage of the water the horses from the Palantir. Now, this ability does not cause a practical damage, in fact it duplicates the wind (as in Angmar and Imladris).

Glorfindell - a wonderful character, very helpful (though Arwen even more useful) in Tolkien's book, he is a hero, elf-warrior, even the Witch King was afraid of him.

Imladris need a strong hero killer

I think on the idea of ​​the founders edain mod Glorfindel is the hero, but it turned out not strong anti-hero. I noticed that the transition to the world of shadows (a brilliant idea, separate Respect) as it is written in Tolkien book Glorfindel successfully kills darkness heroes. But this is a game and the balance requires that Imladris was capable of and against the factions of "light".

In fact, when you see such an outrage: the firstborn Glorfindell elf, Elrond - possesses the most important of the elven rings, Elrond's sons - experienced soldiers. Torin kills them in a moment. Torin can kill 4Heroes for 4 seconds))) Celeborn good hero killer, Aragorn, Torin third terrifying killer hero
« Letzte Änderung: 31. Dez 2016, 23:58 von [BMD]Dmitry »

Offline calixoxx

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 27
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #36 am: 12. Jan 2017, 03:47 »
Everyone complains about Lore Masters but I genuinely don't see them as a problem. At most maybe make them 700 each instead of 600 and increase their build time?

You can't even combine them until you dump an ungodly amount of resources into the damn library ^^

Offline Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #37 am: 12. Jan 2017, 14:06 »
Everyone complains about Lore Masters but I genuinely don't see them as a problem. At most maybe make them 700 each instead of 600 and increase their build time?

You can't even combine them until you dump an ungodly amount of resources into the damn library ^^
The problem is once you do get access to the Loremaster's combined abilities, something you pretty much have to do anyways because buying the upgrade gives access to your level 3 barracks and stables, you can utterly destroy pretty much any army. 

Now the abilities by themselves aren't the biggest problem.  The combination that is considered the most broken is Wind and Light, which gets an uncounterable stun that affects both units and siege (maybe also Heroes, haven't used them in a while).  Yeah that ability is strong, but Helegwen has something similar in her Frost Arrow Volley, and I wouldn't say that ability is completely game breaking.  However, you can have as many Loremasters as you want, so you can potentially get hit by 4-5 uncounterable stuns, meanwhile the Imladris army is killing your units without anything stopping them. 

And thats not the only combination that is incredibly strong.  Wind and Water gives you access to a debuff of -50% damage and speed, which can make your units preform vastly better then the enemies.  Wind and Earth gives access to that sand tornado which, while it can only be used on a building, can just spin alot of enemy troops in circles for 1 whole minute.  Use this one on a Mordor Barracks, its quite hilarious what happens when that Barracks produces orcs.  ;)

And the strength of the Loremasters does not just come from the combination abilities.  Wind Loremasters having passive knockback on their attack is incredibly strong, their 50% speed boost plus knockback resistance make them the perfect option to chase/runaway from the enemy.  Water Loremasters can heal your troops, which is pretty strong by it self, but if you make alot of them, you can just constantly heal your army.  Light and Earth Loremasters are definitely in a more balanced spot, but they are not weak in anyway, and still have access to those dreadful combinations. 

Overall, Loremasters just give access to too much for how easy it is to get them.  Luckily for Imladris, they can preform very well still even without buying Loremasters, so if you do agree that they are too strong, you don't have to play with them.   

Offline [BMD]Dmitry

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 10
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #38 am: 12. Jan 2017, 18:03 »
Everyone complains about Lore Masters but I genuinely don't see them as a problem. At most maybe make them 700 each instead of 600 and increase their build time?

You can't even combine them until you dump an ungodly amount of resources into the damn library ^^

I agree with you! Loremasters useful units, but they are not op! They are very easy to kill, they do not have immunity from fear (they cannot use their abilities)
Kill  loremasters very easy!
shots of the tower can kill loremasters for 2 seconds and will not have any combinations!
Imladris is one of the most vulnerable factions, perhaps this is the weakest race.

I say this as one of the most experienced players at Imladris, please play with me a mirror and a replay of the game will publish here if in doubt))
 
« Letzte Änderung: 12. Jan 2017, 18:07 von [BMD]Dmitry »

Offline Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.037
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #39 am: 12. Jan 2017, 20:59 »
At the end of the day, the wind/light combo is what really breaks it, because its an uncounterable stun that lasts for a long time. Think of the streams of Mirkwood, except you can potentially get like 5 casts of it, in addition to all of Imladris' other buffs. Also, just to confirm, the stun DOES affect heroes as well.

The other stuff is bad, but not nearly as bad. With the debuff you can just run away, and with the heal you can just snipe the loremasters with archesr. The problem is that every single time you try to engage, you WILL be debuffed and stunned, and the enemy army WILL be constantly getting healed. It's all of them together that make Imladris so broken.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Offline [BMD]Dmitry

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 10
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #40 am: 13. Jan 2017, 16:53 »
Imladris is very small and expensive troops, the force does not compensate for the number of units, so in need of Imladris available loremasters, edain team did everything right, no need to change loremasters!

Offline Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.037
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #41 am: 13. Jan 2017, 23:46 »
....What?
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Offline calixoxx

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 27
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #42 am: 15. Jan 2017, 02:08 »
I see your point Kryptik, but I simply have never seen more than 4 Loremasters on the field at the same time competitively. They only combine late game, by which time you (hopefully) have your army built up. They cost 600 each, they take like 120 (?) cp so you certainly dont want more than several anyway, and they are easily destroyed.

My suggestions:

. Make them 700 instead of 600
. Increase recharge time for combined powers.
. Increase recruiting time for each one.

For everyone so concerned about Haldir and Loremasters, I am shocked to hardly see anything about Helegwen's arrow, which has a large radius, especially when units are only moderately clumped. The spell lasts very long, and I have seen equal amounts of total army destruction from that as Haldir's arrow or Loremasters. Not to mention you cannot even switch into defensive position while frozen. And last, it comes at lvl 3, so usually early in the game. If Lores and Haldir need a debuff, then so does Helegwen. =]

Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Eroberer Osgiliaths
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.782
  • German, Motherfucker! Do you speak it?
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #43 am: 15. Jan 2017, 02:17 »
As Elite already mentioned, Helegwen will get toned down in the upcoming patch. We do have that on our radar ;)

Lore masters are 60 cp iirc, which should probably be increased. The only thing that is actually broken about them is the combo that Elite mentioned, which has basically the same ability that Helegwen has, just without any warning time. And you can have several of those units. Destroying them isn't easy against a competent player in certain matchups either, imagine being Mordor ;).

#TeamElendil

Offline calixoxx

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 27
Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
« Antwort #44 am: 15. Jan 2017, 02:44 »
As Elite already mentioned, Helegwen will get toned down in the upcoming patch. We do have that on our radar ;)

Lore masters are 60 cp iirc, which should probably be increased. The only thing that is actually broken about them is the combo that Elite mentioned, which has basically the same ability that Helegwen has, just without any warning time. And you can have several of those units. Destroying them isn't easy against a competent player in certain matchups either, imagine being Mordor ;).


I would also support limiting them to 3 or 4 like the Lorien minstrels.