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Monster Units in Edain (4.4)

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Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
I'll add some of my thoughts on the topic, seems interesting :)

Let's start off with battlewagons, since Fredius mentioned that a lot of people considered them too weak before their changes. Contrary to the popular opinion at the time, I liked battle wagons a lot back then (and still prefer the old version). It died incredibly fast to pikes but was very resistant against archers and had problems against swordsmen, despite of its much greater manoeuvrability. That doesn't sound too great at first, but with good usage of their barrel its effectiveness increased a lot - you now had no problems killing swords because trample + barrel killed them and leveled the wagon. Leveling was/is very important to those guys, because the health increase was pretty substantial. Also their upgrades weren't hidden behind high tech costs. All this meant you had a very fragile unit with fantastic manoeuvrability, great aoe damage (trample + barrel) and great but decently cheap support options in the form of a leadership and permanent healing. It required more micro than your average unit, but it could also give you much more.
Nowadays the battlewagon gets slowed down incredibly quickly while being much more resistant to pikes and much more vulnerable to archers. It is now a unit that survives driving head on into pikes, but can get chased down by swords quite easily. It gets shot down by archers far more often while you need to pay a lot of money to even unlock their upgrades. It's manoeuvrability is now mostly gone, because once you decide to charge into combat, you're pretty much stuck.
You could say that the old version had a higher skill ceiling than the new one, quite bad when not used carefully, but great in the hands of an experienced player. I love those kind of units personally, they allow you to get better, they give you a challenge, they punish your mistakes. But hey, maybe that's just me^^


Now on to trolls, that new thing that makes Mordor op now :P
Now Shadowlord, I don't know which competitive players you are talking about, but whoever ignores trolls in the current version of Edain doesn't know what he/she is talking about^^. Without upgrades their strength is pretty good imho, the problem is their price. 500 is too cheap for something that has this much health, is faster than their counters, destroys buildings and is a soft counter to cavalry. Their synergy with orcs as a meat shield is great. And you can even reduce the cost to 350 if you have mapcontrol, which is exactly what trolls + orcs give you in the eg. The price really needs to go up to at least 600, preferably more. Otherwise their health buff needs to be partially reverted.

Armored trolls with weapons are a bit more complicated, since they already profit from the troll itself being so cheap. So increasing those costs might help balance them out, although reducing the bonus hp that the armor gives still seems reasonable to me. At level one, armored trolls have 8750 hp (5000 without armor) and they just go nuts when leveling, up to 11900 HP at lvl 5. As long as you're not running them into pikes all the time, they are incredibly strong. With their baseball bat thingy their aoe is huge.


I'm not sure what the fuzz with the Ents is all about, they still take ages to take down certain buildings, are slow as hell and vulnerable to upgraded archers and pikes. I'll admit though that I never use them for combat purposes, only to finish a match.

Odysseus:
The fudge is mostly Ents going into a rage by either seeing Lumber Mills or seeing other Ents die, and gaining like quadruple speed, chase and obliterate everything. It's a pretty scary sight to behold haha.

Good points though Elendil. I'd like to say that I only dislike instakill mechanics, they are very anti-fun, and do not allow room for even one mistake, unless there is a very large trade-off. I do like a chance to escape, no matter how small it is. As it stands, I don't mind the Battlewagon being a bit more tanky, but currently, the thing feels heathier than a troll, which should obviously not be the case. I find it really strange that a Battlewagon can deal with Royal Guard 1 on 1. Their armour is too high at the moment, I am sure of it. Default Trolls can be taken down easily by Royal Guard, but not Battlewagons? It should really be verified.

Quite often, people forget that early on, Trolls poop on cavalry, becoming worse as cavalry receive upgrades and the trolls do not upgrade (logical of course). Trolls are so extremely cost-efficient right now, it's over the top. The problem primarily is trolls in the early game, because they can now be rushed early more easily. I don't have any real trouble with Trolls as the game progresses. Also, people, I highly advise you try Trolls with swords against heroes, they do so much damage against them, and can even knock them back with the ability. Try it and see for yourself.

Hamanathnath:
Very interesting topic.  I'm glad this has been brought up.  Allow me to share my thoughts.

Trolls-  As Elendil stated, Trolls are mandatory when playing as Mordor nowadays.  They are insanely versatile, and pretty much every other faction doesn't have any reliable counter to Mordor rushing Trolls.  And with their upgrades, they become so incredibly useful.  Increasing their price back up to 600 would definitely help fix this problem this problem.  Though, honestly, I've always thought that Trolls should cost more then that, which is something I brought up last year when Trolls were considered underpowered.  Trolls, especially in the movies, were incredibly tough monsters, and I don't think their price currently reflects that.

Battlewagons-  I actually mostly like how Battlewagons are now.  The Tanky, yet slow nature of the Battlewagons not only fits in with the Dwarves in general,  but also make them theoritically more of a support unit then a main line cavalry..... But unfortunately, I think their upgrades could use some looking at.  While the Well and Banner are both very good upgrades, the Archer upgrade is never really worth going for. 

Also, just because it was brought up, I don't think Battlewagons killing Royla Guard is a sign that Battlewagons at too strong.  Right now, I still think Heroic Cavalry is too weak.

Barrow-Wights and Beornings-  Both of these units turned from being OP on their respective factions to being rarely seen on their factions.  Starting with Wights, while I agree that their previous form was a bit too much, they have been nerfed into the ground to the point where there really isn't a point in buying them every as Angmar.  For Beornings, they have been constantly nerfed, and due to their little effectiveness in both Early and Late game, they are also never bought.  For both these units, I strongly suggest adding a new ability that they can get as they level up, especially for the Beorning.  But I also think both of the Buildings these units come from need price decreases.  I wouldn't mind seeing both the Wight Lair and the Beorning hut costing 400.

And those are my major points.  Some smaller ones though. 

-Ents should take more damage from fire, and should run slower in their Frenzy mode, but other then that I'm fine with them. 

-Flying units are always tricky to balance, but increasing their damage against siege would be great for them.

-Werewolves seem pretty underwhelming now, but I'll have to do more testing before I finalize my opinion on them.

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