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Umfrage

Does Durin deserve to remain part of the Edain Mod?

Yes, he's an iconic mythical figure and he deserves to remain part of the Edain Mod
No, he doesn't have any place left in the Edain Mod after the overhaul of the Dwarven Ring system

Autor Thema: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod  (Gelesen 41316 mal)

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Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« am: 8. Aug 2016, 15:43 »
Greetings to anyone interested in the Dwarven matters of the lively and friendly Dwarven board. As I recently wrote and replied to some people both on ModDB and here, I believe it would be a great pity if Durin's concept (and the pivotal lore references it consists of) were ultimately removed completely from the game.

The main reasons that justified the choice for the Dáin/Thorin Ring concept are more than agreeable and comprehensible indeed; and I pointed out this quite exhaustively in a comment of mine about this very topic (you can also track the following debate from this post). Now, the Dwarves are undoubtedly much more consistent in lore accuracy than they were before, and they can finally make usage of the One Ring in a definitely more logical and rational context which the current what-if scenario exactly provides.


On the present structure, thus, we find ourselves with a renewed system with its own relative innovative aspects; on the other hand, the legendary figure of the Dwarves' forefather is no more something belonging to the Mod (and, unless the Edain Team has other plans, it seems that the mythical hero is eventually destined to be remembered as one of the many old surpassed concepts of the past).

Since we, as a Community, often managed to find reasonable compromises and alternative solutions for critical situations, I really hope we will too succeed in bringing Durin back in the game; not only as a smart feature itself, but primarily as a fundamental symbol of the Dwarven lore in the history of Arda and of the iconic resurrection theme that characterises wholly this race's true essence (as immortality does in regards of the Elves). On the matter, instead of improbable suggestions that contemplate him as a regular hero, I rather thought about what could be the wisest start to begin with: implementing Durin via the spellbook as an ultimate spell, and replacing the current citadel summoning spell.

In my personal opinion, ultimate spells represent the most profound nature and might of each faction's lore, and they are exactly fashioned accordingly: Gondor's Oathbreakers are inexorably bound to the authority of the legitimate heir of the Númenórean kingdoms and legacy itself in Middle-earth, Rohan's military camp portrays the peculiar horse-motive of the faction's warfare, Isengard's two ultimate spells are centred on industry/militarism and on the terrible devices that derive from it, Mordor can restore the ancient powers of Sauron in line with the Maia's consolidated lore in Arda's events, Lothlórien calls for the aid of the legendary Mariner and his holy light (a Silmaril) in time of need, Angmar's stronghold of the Iron Crown retrieves the remembrance of Carn Dûm's eerie rule and Imladris can dispose of the Last Alliance (and its legendary leaders) that once saved Middle-earth from the dominion of the Dark Lord. That said, wouldn't a legend as Durin be perfectly suitable for the immensely significant task of symbolising the highest and most majestic side of the Dwarves' lore?  ;)

Certainly, this is more an initial input to the debate that I wish it were developed from now on. Details, numbers and also counter-arguments are certainly yet to be discussed properly and taken into consideration very carefully. But, I am nonetheless resolved to campaign for Durin to remain part of the Edain Mod and I'm confident that you too will express your own thoughts too. I will also open a poll, but just to do a little survey about the general feeling towards this proposal; thus, the poll won't encompass detailed and defined concepts  :)

DrHouse93

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #1 am: 8. Aug 2016, 16:26 »
I am quite fine on the system developed right now by the team. I mean, I never had anything against Durin, but I also don't miss him at all, right now. The main reasons why I'd prefer things to remain the way they are are:

1. Even if he's the Forefather of the Dwarves, Durin is long-time dead at the time of the WOTR. And while the Dwarves believe he reincarnates in any Dwarf whose name is Durin, the concept is mainly centered on the current Durin having aspects of his ancestor's appearance and personality, but not being Durin the Deathless himself (keep in mind that for the same reasons I don't like so much the Last Alliance spell, while being really iconic, it's also kinda lame that Gil-galad, Elendil, Isildur and Anarion live again for a bunch of seconds and fight again in Middle-earth. They could be of course special features of some special maps)

2. I largely prefer Thorin and the Dains as Ringheroes, because they are well-known characters with deep personalities, while about Durin we just know his name. So, in a what-if scenario, I'd greatly prefer to see what could have happened if Thorin/Dain found the One Ring, driving him mad and incredibly increasing his greed/pride, rather than having Durin magically back on the battlefield (furthermore thanks to an Evil artifact. Since the Ring contains the soul of Sauron, why should he bring back the Forefather of the Dwarves?)

3. The citadel also represents one of the core aspects of the Dwarves, this being their craftmanship, which, if I'm not mistaking, can be compared to the one of the Noldors and the Numenoreans. Plus it's an incredibly useful defensive building (especially considering that Dwarven towers have a far more smaller range than ordinary defensive towers). I think the Earthquake is more inappropriate, because while being iconic to the faction, I also think it's kinda lame the Dwarves can conjure earthquakes out of thin air (heroes and siege engines are ok, but a sudden earthquake which destroys half of your base, occurring for no reason, it's not so entertaining)

Odysseus

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #2 am: 8. Aug 2016, 16:38 »
Hmm, it is tough to say for me. To be fair, just like the Last Alliance spell and the Powers of Past Ages for Sauron, there are quite a bit of these elements that do not fit the timeline of Edain mod at all, yet they are iconic in what kind of gameplay elements they provide.

As you know Walk, I have already expressed my thoughts on the lore-related arguments, and I would like to add that Durin really only fit with the old concept, where Dwarves being hewn out of stone by Aüle, was referenced by reviving Durin out of a stone statue, but since Ring Heroes have to pick up the ring themselves (Quite a big gameplay shift), this is no longer relevant, I'm afraid.

I only voted no because I have no idea where to put him. I can only imagine some kind of campaign addition or some scenario pack that someone will probably eventually make. The Dwarven Spellbook is very solid at the moment, in my opinion, and I'd not like a Durin summon to go there. Furthermore, when you gift the majority of his abilities over to the current faction leaders, which keeps his gameplay elements in the game, you basically only remain with his appearance, and that would feel too much like adding for the sake of adding, if you understand what I am trying to say.

If we do add him in a 10 PP spell. what exactly would it look like? I think the Citadel summon spell is much more unique, and now more useful too thanks to the recent price reduction of the expansion catapults. I am not sure what another Hero Summon would truly provide to the faction, unless it'd be made very unique, but I have no idea how this would be done.

Edit: DrHouse93 makes some solid points. I'd like to show my support and approval for them as well.
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Aug 2016, 18:40 von Odysseus »
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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #3 am: 8. Aug 2016, 18:07 »
Thank you both DrHouse and Odysseus, for having participated and provided constructive arguments. If only half of the criticism I got throughout ModDB had been as rational and as logical as yours...  xD

1. As I wrote, I too agree that the new Ring system is way more acceptable in lore terms and absolutely much more coherent: that is, I have no problem with it. That's why I proposed a different implementation of Durin, that wouldn't thus have anything to do with the One Ring anymore and could finally find its proper place exactly as an ultimate spell worthy of representing such pivotal aspects of the renowned Dwarven culture.

2. I know, most of the ultimate spells that I brought as examples are total contradictions of Tolkien's sources. Nevertheless, as much as you may surely know how 'strict' and focused I too am regarding lore matters in the game, it's also true that not everything in the Mod can objectively respect every single of those boundaries, lest the game itself suffer greatly from the loss of many smart and extremely iconic features. There has to be a balance of some sort, and this is exactly the path that the Edain Team, I imagine, decided to eventually follow (even if that meant sacrificing something in terms of lore accuracy). My suggestion thus refers to ultimate spells only, as they in fact are the sole element of each faction to somehow have the 'right' to contrast with the pure lore for higher purposes.

In light of the points above, I have the feeling that it will be quite decisive to determine whether Durin should be a temporary or permanent summon; and I'm starting to get closer to the former option (avoiding thus possible balance and technical issues we might face). Also, a temporary design may give people the sense of that constant renewal motive/cycle, which is inherently connected to the said reincarnation theme, much more effectively. Furthermore, I agree with the interpretation you follow, DrH, but it's even possible to look at the whole specificity of Durin's properties in another deeper and more comprehensive way: as far as I know (unfortunately, I have to admit that I'm not as acquainted with the Dwarven lore as I am with its Elven counterpart), Dwarves do have the possibility to reincarnate long after their death. The souls of the Dwarves are bound to linger forever in the Halls of Mandos (and can't obviously be readmitted again in Valinor in new bodies as the Elves), but they nonetheless can hope to be reincarnated and thus inhabit new Dwarven bodies (destined to become again noble heroes in the mortal World).

3. The citadel spell doesn't displease me that much, as I said, nor do I think that it doesn't have its own logic to be in the game. But it also never really convinced me fully of its real value in the Dwarven spellbook; at least, that iconic value I see in ultimate spells as the Last Alliance or Power of Past Ages. In addition, the great Dwarven mastery of craftsmanship is well pervasively displayed via their significantly robust structures and the diversified defensive features they already have at hand. At this point though, I think it's not really a matter of gameplay utility, but rather a kind of 'political choice' to restore such mythical character for the Dwarves or to stick to the current state of things.

Besides, I'm really happy to debate this topic with you and, in case there weren't favourable responses, to at least ensure that an interesting yet fruitful discussion takes place among the Edain Community  :)

P.S. DrH=DrHouse (I think I found a new nickname, with a more intriguing and mysterious touch)  :P

Fredius

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #4 am: 8. Aug 2016, 19:40 »
First of all, let me say that I have nothing against Durin, he seems like a nice guy :P. However in the current mechanics of the mod I don't really see a way to include him into the faction. The Ring system is not an option anymore, so I won't talk about that. This leaves us 2 options: either Durin can be recruited, or he can be summoned.

I personally am not fond of the idea of recruiting him, because that option is like spitting on the lore, no matter how or where he can be built. The ability to recruit him is like him being resurrected, and I can't imagine how one can resurrect a dead Dwarven King in the LOTR universe. Perhaps find some DNA of him, and sacrifice a random Dwarf to resurrect him via Edo Tensei (Naruto fans will know :D)?

This leaves us with the ability to summon him via a hero's ability or the spellbook. I don't think any hero has the capability to resurrect Durin, so I won't cover that, so I think the spellbook would indeed be the best option. Personally I'm quite satisfied with the current spellbook; especially with the last tier powers.  While the Earthquake is a great offensive spell, the Citadel is a great defensive spell. It really compliments each other, and replacing one of them with a random Dwarven hero kinda ruins it imo.

The spell that is most suited to be replaced would imo be the Gandalf summon. Both Gandalf and Durin have strong abilities, thus replacing Gandalf won't change much on the balance matter. However, I personally would prefer Gandalf over Durin, because Gandalf played a big role for the Dwarves in the THIRD age, while Durin had his time in the First Age. I don't believe much in that reincarnation stuff, let's not take it too literally please. Afaik only Elves and Gandalf were reincarnated, and it was Eru (I think?) who had to approve something like that.

TL;DR I have nothing against adding Durin to the mod, but right now I can't seem to find a way to add him without making it too inappropriate. Thus I have voted for No.
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Aug 2016, 19:44 von Fredius »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #5 am: 8. Aug 2016, 20:22 »
I have never really liked the concept of Durin being revived myself. I think the current concepts of Thorin and Dain being driven mad with greed and pride is much more suiting and appropriate to the RIng.

As for making him an ultimate spell, I totally disagree with that. Being able to just summon Durin magically out of thin air makes no sense either conceptually or on a lore basis. The issue is the timeline, the next Durin to be summoned is not until the 4th age, and it spells the ultimate downfall and decline of the Dwarves when he should appear. So, having him appear out of nowhere in the Third Age would actually be a very BAD thing.

The only place I could see him fitting in, in terms of normal gameplay, would be a new level 10 summon of a Hero, as they could be having a new son, which is the reincarnation of Durin. Even this, however; is extremely farfetched and grasping-at-straws in nature. So overall, no, I think Durin should remain out of the normal game, and be added to special maps and campaigns.
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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #6 am: 8. Aug 2016, 20:52 »
I find myself in Elite's critical and ultimately true response. I wonder if we'll ever see something happen to the memoirs of the Last Alliance because of this reasoning.
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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #7 am: 8. Aug 2016, 22:11 »
Also I am a supporter the Thorin/Dáin's (and Thorin III's  in an other debate) ringhero form. I suggested that Durin replace the citadel spell because I thought there will be a protest against the new ringhero system, and people will want Durin as a ringhero again.
There was another suggestion that Durin would replace the earthquake spell, but he would has an earthquake ability.
Durin is really a unique hero but I don't insist at all costs.

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #8 am: 9. Aug 2016, 00:06 »
I just made further researches on Durin and the relative reincarnation theme lying behind his legend. Unfortunately, I didn't find direct evidences of the real future of the Dwarven souls in the Halls of Mandos, thus making any statement about it too risky to be considered more accurate than a speculation (actually, it seems that Tolkien himself has never really given a clear answer too, resulting in this aspect to be even more obscure). Left such metaphysical speculations aside, Durin do live in the legends of the Dwarves as one of the first forefathers and the Dwarves themselves believed that he would have reincarnated seven times before the decline of Arda and the very End; as Elite wrote, the last one is exactly thought to have appeared in the Fourth Age, not long after the War of the Ring.

Apart from Tolkien's precise description of this said motive, the actual proof consists of the fact that every presumptive reincarnation of Durin became leader/king of his people and was author of remarkable deeds. Therefore, to polish the concept a bit, if Durin were really to be summoned, he would be the first and 'real' Durin I: the greatest of the Dwarven forefathers, awoken in the ancestral Years of the Trees and attributed to have lived more than 2000 years (immensely longer than the average Dwarven lifespan), thus receiving the title of 'Deathless'. Said that, the spell would then summon Durin I and him only, as the mightiest of Aulë's creations and the most known of the Dwarves since the oldest tales.

As for making him an ultimate spell, I totally disagree with that. Being able to just summon Durin magically out of thin air makes no sense either conceptually or on a lore basis. The issue is the timeline, the next Durin to be summoned is not until the 4th age, and it spells the ultimate downfall and decline of the Dwarves when he should appear. So, having him appear out of nowhere in the Third Age would actually be a very BAD thing.

I wonder if we'll ever see something happen to the memoirs of the Last Alliance because of this reasoning.

Resolved the 'seventh reincarnation' issue (thanks to Elite for having brought it out and so given me the possibility to clarify the proposal even more), I would like to address the whole lore-contrast at the heart of some of your remarks (akin to the quotations I chose to quote). May I say this quite directly: they would be absolutely valid points in other debates concerning other different issues, but, inserted into the specific context I tried to create, I believe they are instead quite invalid and inappropriate to argue about.

I mean, in such lore terms of the kind you used, there is very little 'argumentative ground' on which we could provide positive or negative arguments and then hope to come to a just conclusion. As I wrote in my previous replies, I too fully agree with you that those spells are outright violations of the simplest lore boundaries; but, I would also really like you to understand that they are ultimate spells endowed with peculiar properties: that is, they provide the game with the most unique features and bring successfully into the game the best elements of their faction's own lore and essence. In doing so, they don't respect the lore and have a good deal of justified reasons to do so. They are kind of extreme exceptions that nonetheless add to the Edain Mod a certain type of uniqueness value; something that would otherwise be not possible at the same extent, and not without making the general game experience eventually poorer.

You could certainly be entitled to question their actual presence in the game, and we could start a thread about it in the future. Nevertheless, at the current state, the legendary forefather of the Dwarves, who lived millennia before, being magically summoned out of thin air wouldn't be more inappropriate than the Last Alliance troops alongside their commanders, than Eärendil suddenly appearing on the battlefield upon Vingilótë (when he is supposed to guard the outer skies of Arda in eternity) and than Sauron/Gorthaur gleefully walking around with all his past powers of shape-shifting and black Magic unspoiled (as nothing really happened in the previous 6000 years).

I don't believe much in that reincarnation stuff, let's not take it too literally please. Afaik only Elves and Gandalf were reincarnated, and it was Eru (I think?) who had to approve something like that.

In my opinion, what Tolkien meant with reincarnation has a very subtle aspect: not such complete and immediate reincarnation, but rather incredible virtues and the formidable strength (even past remembrances?) of one soul that pass into another new soul within a given (long, usually) period of time. The Elves may be reincarnated, but it's quite a different matter; those who find again peace in the Halls of Mandos can gain back their physical bodies and be readmitted to the eternal bliss of Valinor (but Valinor only). As far as I know, Ilúvatar is not involved in this process and everything is left to the Valar's judgement.

I guess the Valar too could have revived Gandalf and restored his powers, with that, though, taking considerable time and efforts (as an injured Maia can recover only after centuries, should its physical body be destroyed). Eru's intervention made everything immediate, for Gandalf was revived completely and granted even greater powers; in perfect time to accomplish his mission: saving Middle-earth  8-)

Also I am a supporter the Thorin/Dáin's (and Thorin III's  in an other debate) ringhero form. I suggested that Durin replace the citadel spell because I thought there will be a protest against the new ringhero system, and people will want Durin as a ringhero again.
There was another suggestion that Durin would replace the earthquake spell, but he would has an earthquake ability.
Durin is really a unique hero but I don't insist at all costs.

Nothing to worry about. If you manage to provide valuable arguments to your position, you can continue to discuss this proposal anytime you want to  :)

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #9 am: 9. Aug 2016, 03:02 »
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUAL Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Aug 2016, 14:35 von Elite KryPtik »
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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #10 am: 9. Aug 2016, 10:52 »
I shall put forward my 2 cents.
I personally believe Durin felt lazy as a Ring Hero, he did not explore the "What if" scenarios in other words. However I am against a complete removal from the mod, rather I thin making him a 10 pp spell would work. I would rather him replace earthquake than the fortress as Durin is an aggressive hero and replacing a defensive spell with an aggressive spell, for a defensive fraction, feels... wrong. I would only accept him replacing the fortress if the Dwarf Barracks Dain can summon was given its upgrades and tower foundations.
Also while on the topic of Ring Heroes what is the current word on the Dain dilemma, because at the moment it feels like Old Dain is leading the Iron hills and Young Dain is leading Erabor.
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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #11 am: 9. Aug 2016, 11:32 »
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUALY Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.

+1

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #12 am: 9. Aug 2016, 14:38 »
I also totally agree with Elite.

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #13 am: 9. Aug 2016, 15:05 »
I liked him, so I said yes, but if I am to be honest, I prefer to have Durin only in a palantir power because he is dead loooooooooooong before the Third Age, or not at all like now.

After all if Edain Team made him available like a Dwarf Ring Hero, Why do they not make/add Gil-Galad a hero for Imladris with Celebrimbor, Celebrian, The first Glorfindel, Fëanor... The Numenorean kingdom with Ciryatur, Isildur or Elendil for Arnor... Gothmog the King of the Balrog, Glaurung the Father of Dragons, Draugluin the Father of Werewolf, Morgoth, Ungoliant...

The answer is quite simple : All of these people/creatures are long dead before the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

So stop whining about not Durin being in the game lads and deal with it and move on.

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #14 am: 9. Aug 2016, 16:04 »
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUALY Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

While the spell is in action, I guess the very Vingilótë does appear in the battlefield, as you can also manoeuvre it and the actual model of the ship exactly says that it's Eärendil's enchanted vessel. But even if that weren't the case, the light of Eärendil would never display itself in such fashion (as its only radiant fragment on Middle-earth is captured in Galadriel's phial, and the Mariner won't come down to Arda until the End). Regarding Sauron, he did die in a sense, as his physical body was destroyed by the cataclysm caused by the wrath of Ilúvatar; any Maia who is violently deprived of its physical appearance will inevitably face the loss of some of its powers too. It's quite an inevitable law of Arda, and Tolkien made it very clear that Sauron could have never recovered and retrieved his past might again (particularly, the ability of shape-shifting at a major extent and the ability to appear in a very fair form). That is, the spell is nonetheless a clear violation of the lore, and there is not something more to add about it, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, again, I am not questioning these spells' accuracy towards the lore, because it's already proven that they don't respect it and similar arguments of this kind would thus not contribute meaningfully to the debate either. As long as such spells are in the game, any lore-boundary can't be applied to them in that strict way (and I already explained why, as ultimate spells, they have the possibility to go beyond the logic that is legitimately followed for the other spells and the other elements of the game).

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.

I wouldn't call it favouritism, but rather a free choice among different valuable options. In fact, once the lore-logic is not valid anymore in such terms, I think you only have to decide, based on every situation's specificity, whether it should be wise to stick to a solid concept that doesn't create any problematics as the ones above or to go boldly for a very unique feature that adds greatness to the game (at the cost of timeline or lore contradictions). For example, Gondor and Rohan stick wisely to lore-accurate concepts as there is a wide range of possibilities for them to choose from, related specifically to the War of the Ring and to the content of the cinematographic trilogy; factions as Lothlórien and Rivendell aren't that lucky to dispose of such chances, so that it's necessarily required to seek for the 'bold choices' I referred to above (in this context, their relative ultimate spells).

Just imagine, in Imladris' case, would there really be suitable alternative choices other than the current spell? A new ultimate spell that perfectly respects the lore and the timeline could be easily conceived, but that will ultimately lead to the Last Alliance spell to be removed from the game; a spell that is magnificently related to the Eldar's glorious past and to the LOTR prologue everyone is fond of. Uniqueness is exactly one of the greatest aspects of this Mod, and if clever exceptions as the Last Alliance and Power of Past Ages were not anymore, unique it would not be. This is my personal consideration of the matter.

By the way, I checked that thread of Eorl the Young (if this is the one you mentioned) and I honestly find the comparison a bit inappropriate. First of all, the thread is not technically shut down, as there is just a comment from Tiberius that uses the same logic (wrong, in this case) of the impossibility to revive dead heroes. Second, the proposal is linked to the One Ring, while, as I stated from the beginning, this one has nothing to do with it; in that situation, I would have rejected that concept for the fact that Eorl is resurrected via the action of a totally evil artefact (the same argument against Durin as a Ring hero).

As the current Moderator, I tell you that you can develop that proposal further, if you are willing to. In regards of Eorl the Young being implemented via the spellbook, my response would use the logic of the 'wise choice' I illustrated before: Rohan had better stick to its current concept, because both the lore and the actual films provide us with completely accurate material to work with and to develop unique concepts from (while Eorl would then disrupt every of those aspects more than it could benefit the game itself). Therefore, based on Rohan's particularities, I would absolutely agree with you about the timeline and the lore. The Dwarves, Imladris, Lothlórien and Mordor just have different standards though  :)

EDIT:

I liked him, so I said yes, but if I am to be honest, I prefer to have Durin only in a palantir power because he is dead loooooooooooong before the Third Age, or not at all like now.

After all if Edain Team made him available like a Dwarf Ring Hero, Why do they not make/add Gil-Galad a hero for Imladris with Celebrimbor, Celebrian, The first Glorfindel, Fëanor... The Numenorean kingdom with Ciryatur, Isildur or Elendil for Arnor... Gothmog the King of the Balrog, Glaurung the Father of Dragons, Draugluin the Father of Werewolf, Morgoth, Ungoliant...

The answer is quite simple : All of these people/creatures are long dead before the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

I really suggest you read again the previous passages of the debate (if you haven't done it), because I personally think you're making now a bit of confusion about the matters involved and the relative arguments. It's quite clear that we can't have Morgoth, the Valar or the whole First Age in the game, and I exactly spent some time in explaining my reasoning and this concept's specificity very carefully. It would thus be desirable if you had a look at them and remained in touch with the discussion.

So stop whining about not Durin being in the game lads and deal with it and move on.

This thread was exactly established to deal more specifically with the current Durin issue. If you are not interested, you are free to not participate and getting yourself involved in other activities elsewhere. If you are willing to argue your legitimate opposite position though, you should then do it with actual and real criticism; pointless remarks like the one I quoted are generally more than worthy of being simply deleted for the sake of the very topic. If you want to discuss, do it properly, please.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Aug 2016, 16:32 von DieWalküre »