Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

[Garlodur]

Hi there!

I wanted to share my thoughts on the topic since this is a topic that intrigues me a lot, and it encourages me that other members are so passionate about this reconceptualisation of Dwarven Ring heroes. I apologise if my thoughts seem all over the place, but I want to ask and introduce vital questions.

• Firstly, I agree that the proposed configuration of Ring heroes should exclude the option for King Dáin to accept the One Ring. This leaves us with Thorin Oakenshield, Lord Dáin of the Iron Hills and Durin VII (somewhere in Thorin Stonehelm's line) as Ring heroes for the respective Dwarven factions of Ered Luin, the Iron Hills, and Erebor. I believe that the fate of Durin VII as a new Ring hero is indeed strongly connected to that of the other two.
  
• Secondly, I am satisfied with the way the canon knowledge on Durin has been incorporated into this concept, although I find it a very significantly unsupported assumption that Durin VII is the son of Thorin III. The royal family tree of Durin's line is the only source that confirms descendance but the dotted line indicates an indirect relation that might span several generations. Nonetheless, I am willing to accept this proposal on the same ground the Last Alliance spell has a place in the mod, being the iconic meaning of the most legendary Dwarf (in resurrection).
  
  I propose therefore to leave out the backstory around Hannar (who is also completely made up, besides being based on a loose premise). It seems Aule and dkbluewizard have come around to a similar conclusion. I want to strengthen their reasoning with the following argument: the spirit of Durin is resurrected in a new body wHich he then makes resemble that of previous namebearer. This explains on the one hand why nothing is spoken of a Durin after the death of Durin VI for thousands of years, and on the other hand it shows the uncertainty around the beginning and end of the lives of Durin II till Durin VI with regards to dates. I take the liberty to interpret these facts that Durin's spirit chooses when to resurrect in a new body. The argument of necessary resemblance between all Durin is hard to maintain for this reason, at least in physical form. Certainly, the Dwarves must have built statues to honour their kings but those could have perished in the ruins of Gundabad and Moria and even the First Age Blue Mountains settlements. I argue that the spiritual resemblance is more important to the Dwarves who recognise the exceptional skill in masonry, weapon arts and leadership as almost out of their nature. Furthermore, the decreased importance of physical resemblance allows for the new interpretation of every Durin not being directly related to each other. This way, only a very particular Dwarf with the right mental capabilities will be chosen to incorporate Durin's spirit.
  
   In game, this is best translated as Durin VII instantly summoning on the battlefield as King Dáin collects the Ring, to imagine the reawakening of Durin's spirit in a new Dwarven body.
  
• Thirdly, concerning the in-game implementation I have a few ideas to make the design stand out next to other Ring Heroes. I agree that somehow the individual progress as a hero must be reflected in Durin VII, from accepting the burden as an outstanding warrior and tactician to succeeding in carrying it as a mighty Dwarf lord with strong leadership and unyielding endurance.
  

[AulëTheSmith]

I propose therefore to leave out the backstory around Hannar (who is also completely made up, besides being based on a loose premise). It seems Aule and dkbluewizard have come around to a similar conclusion.

exactly Garlodur! we decide to leave hannar to the background story. he's useful to introduce the character in the timeline. And also it was cool to make something by our interpretation, to give the character a sort of personality . 
However as you said, in game he will appear directly as Durin VII, with a mysterious aura around him as in the lore.

Thirdly, concerning the in-game implementation I have a few ideas to make the design stand out next to other Ring Heroes. I agree that somehow the individual progress as a hero must be reflected in Durin VII, from accepting the burden as an outstanding warrior and tactician to succeeding in carrying it as a mighty Dwarf lord with strong leadership and unyielding endurance.

Feel yourself free to share your ideas about it
Given story and lore consolidated, the last part about Durin VII in game is still work in progress and open to suggestion. I think the most important abilities won't change so much (they mostly resemble the ones of Durin I), a part of minor details, but for example i'm improving the balance, make his escalation to power slower 
The models design i finally conceived, it seems the best one to condense the old design with something new.

(Durin VII initial equipment)               (Durin VII legendary equipment)

The first (rank 1 to 5), looks more like a young brave warrior of Erebor.
The second (rank 5 to 10) is him after he complete his path with the reconquest  of Moria

PS: guys, for now, consindering the enthusiasm and new ideas about Durin VII and dwarves ring system, i deleted the FOR/AGAINST list, i'm gonna create it again when the separate thread will be created, given ALL the ideas about the main core as mostly consolidated.

[dkbluewizard]

Garlodur, I would argue on the premise of the dotted lines. Most of that shows when kings ruled, this is true. But if you go by Tolkien's timeline and the lore that is actually written, the Dwarfs are suppose to disappear in the 4th Age, there is simply just not enough time for all those generations as you speak.

This is what we know of Durin VII: He is a descendant of Thorin III (a son is also considered a descendant), Durin's have great longevity as far as Dwarfs go, Durin VII PROCLAIMED himself in the 4th age, not necessarily meaning that he was born in the 4th age, and finally, based on the background of all Durins we know that they were great smiths, warriors, and the Dwarfs considered them each to be reincarnated.

If it is just for the lore standards not EXPLICITLY stating that Durin VII is Thorin III's son--then it wouldn't matter as Durin VII even as a grandson would still fit the timeline. Don't get hung up on the semantics.

Truth is, for Durin VII to exist, reconquer Moria, and then disappear in the 4th age, then the timeline has to be presented the way I presented it. There is just not enough time for all the generations. I like what you stated in your reply about Lord Dain, Thorin II, and Durin VII Garlodur--but the lines could mean how long one rules. So after Thorin III dies, Durin VII could have ruled all those generations until the diminishing of the Dwarfs, as was Tolkien's intent. 

[AulëTheSmith]

There is not a clear reference in the lore regarding the specific issue about if he is or is not the son of Thorin III. anyway i think the timeline of dk is reasonable. The very fact, which i strongly agree with dkblue and which makes his implemenatation in game feasible (even if is not as Hannar as i said before), is that  i believe is reasonable to think he's born in the third age, and he's the last king right after Thorin III. if it is the last heir of Durin, is lore-friendly the idea that he's blessed with exceptional long life, such as he could rule in the 4th age also.

[Garlodur]

Garlodur, I would argue on the premise of the dotted lines. Most of that shows when kings ruled, this is true. But if you go by Tolkien's timeline and the lore that is actually written, the Dwarfs are suppose to disappear in the 4th Age, there is simply just not enough time for all those generations as you speak.

This is what we know of Durin VII: He is a descendant of Thorin III (a son is also considered a descendant), Durin's have great longevity as far as Dwarfs go, Durin VII PROCLAIMED himself in the 4th age, not necessarily meaning that he was born in the 4th age, and finally, based on the background of all Durins we know that they were great smiths, warriors, and the Dwarfs considered them each to be reincarnated.

If it is just for the lore standards not EXPLICITLY stating that Durin VII is Thorin III's son--then it wouldn't matter as Durin VII even as a grandson would still fit the timeline. Don't get hung up on the semantics.

Truth is, for Durin VII to exist, reconquer Moria, and then disappear in the 4th age, then the timeline has to be presented the way I presented it. There is just not enough time for all the generations. I like what you stated in your reply about Lord Dain, Thorin II, and Durin VII Garlodur--but the lines could mean how long one rules. So after Thorin III dies, Durin VII could have ruled all those generations until the diminishing of the Dwarfs, as was Tolkien's intent.

Don't worry dk, I accept your reasoning for the sake of implementing Durin. I might not agree 100% with it but since this mod is only set at the end of the Third Age we have to deal with the inconsistency. Nonetheless it needs to become clear for what reason Durin deserves to be in the mod despite this time inconsistency. It is just something the main presenters of the proposal have to consider and write with utmost delicacy.

Thank you for your invitation Aule. I meant to write it all in one post but I lacked time. Simply put I suggest a sort of challenges system akin to the Necromancer's to symbolise the advent of Durin as an accepted Dwarf Lord. Such a system I feel is required to distinguish him from the other Dwarven Ring heroes and to give him extra attention.Also some sort of risk needs to be included because the Erebor gains another hero. This obviously requires to reconsider Durin's role in the faction that doesn't exceed the increase in power that Thorin II and Lord Dáin get when accepting the Ring. Besides, I want to mention how different this suggestion is from the Imladris Fellowship: they also spawn as  new battalion but they are in accordance to Elrond's role as mass slayer. It is another comparison that should be kept in mind when considering the intricacy and strength of Durin's character.

To the actual concept. I like the idea of a separate expedition to Moria solely for Durin VII to prove himself and to regain his long lost equipment. This will be in the form of an ability activated only once, which will transform the initial design to the legendary outfit. As a requirement to unlock this ability Durin will have to complete three challenges. These will follow his role as an allround supporter, thus taking the shape of one building buff, one hero buff and one unit buff. The basic set-up will mean that DurinVII spawns as a might warrior that is restricted to level 1, who forth needs to accomplish certain tests to prove his spirit, literally. After completing them, he will initiate the journey to Moria and return as a lord, being free to level up. This idea I got from the same Die Vierte Zeitalter mod that has brought you the models of Hannar. I don't quite know yet how to implement such challenges yet, which is why I want to share the idea with all of you. The fifth palantir slot is a passive that explains his unique levelling system and incorporates a form of leadership. Perhaps a nice place to reintroduce Durin's Day to the Dwarves, as a way to symbolise the pending rise to power.

I hope to have sparked some more debate. In the meantime I will reflect on possible challenges and the drawbacks of such a system.

[AulëTheSmith]

Don't worry dk, I accept your reasoning for the sake of implementing Durin. I might not agree 100% with it but since this mod is only set at the end of the Third Age we have to deal with the inconsistency. Nonetheless it needs to become clear for what reason Durin deserves to be in the mod despite this time inconsistency. It is just something the main presenters of the proposal have to consider and write with utmost delicacy.

I wouldn't speak about inconsistency, but rather Of sparse information which is more correct for Durin VII. In this sense, there is not something that is wrong or right, simply the info are not detailed so we have to deal with what we have from the lore. We have to interpret the low amount of information, reasonably adding some pieces to complete the puzzle. I think our story is a good story in this sense.
Independently of what name we gave him, or if is or isn't son of Thorin III, the main points are:
- the prophecy of his birth was made during BOTFA in 2941 TA, and the ring was destroyed in 3021 TA.These are authentic information from the lore.

Of course is reasonable to place is birthday after BOTFA, and at least 20- 30 years before the defeat of Sauron (otherwise it could be too young during the war of the ring) , being him a ring hero.
That is just what we made in our story, you can't say it is completely right to do it neither you can't say it's wrong, simply as I said the information are quite sparse; and we have made a reasonably timeline to fill this gap.

I would speak also in this case in relative terms, to build up another point in favor of the introduction of Durin figure through Durin VII,comparing the old system and the new one:

some people at the very beginning of this thread complain about the old system of reviving a death character from a statue was not canonic and against lore: agree, there is no mention of that. The return of Durin is present in the lore, but the old form of reviving him was strange and without any base (as I said just multiple times, it sounds a bit like necromancy stuff to resurrect him physically from stone). Now, relatively to this old form, what do you think is the most canonic? The old system or the new one we made?
If you think of what we have done, we have simply chosen a timeline in an interval coming from the lore ( i repeat: there is not a precise date, but the interval is canonic ). From the prophecy on (2941) anytime could be good to place the date of his birthday if you think about it. The lore give us a time interval only, without further details: is up to us to choose a proper and reasonable date. So is it more lore-friendly to revive Durin I from a statue with his body and soul or is it more canonic to choose a date for Durin VII birth from a CERTAIN lore-friendly time interval? I think the second one .
About the theme of reincarnation I won't spend further words, because I just add tons of lore proof about all the possible way it can happen  . What do you think about my thoughts Garlodur? I wrote this poem only because I don't want to introduce Durin "for the sake of do it", but I want to discuss very deeply the lore bases and the reason to introduce him . Well of course one of the reason is because we all miss  Durin  (at least 2/3 of the voters looking at the poll), but it is not the only one. I want to make the pillars of the concept as solid as possible, and my passion for Durin motivate me a lot in this direction
P.s: anytime someone will bring back the issue of the timeline inconsistency and so on and so forth, I will quote this comment 

As for you are ideas, partially I have just introduce something about the travel to Moria in form of task . I'm working on it and I think I will share it soon here, since the interest about this thread is increasing a lot and new ideas are rising. As I said the most important abilities won't change a lot a part of details, because are too much iconic and coming from the old skillset of Durin I. But for sure The issue of balance is something we can improve, introducing some task and constrains. Be it clear: I wouldn't complicate too much the concept, otherwise it could be not worth too much extra work for the team, especially in this delicate moment.
Said that, everyone is invited to share his thoughts Garlodur I will wait the details of your task system

[dkbluewizard]

Aule, I couldn't have said that better myself. Excellent job man!

[AulëTheSmith]

Hello guys i'm back again to this post  I posted the last version of Durin VII, the lore and premises are the same as before, but the game implementation should be now more compact and balanced . You can find it in my signature, and also i will copy it at the end of this message to make things easier 
My willing for the future is to create a unique thread matching our work with the one of Isildurs Fluch, in order to present a new revolutionise dwarves ring system. I hope it will be soon (i'm a bit busy at the moment).

DURIN VII LORE

They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

For the Dwarves asserted that the spirits of the Seven Fathers of their races were from time to time reborn in their kindreds. This was notably the case in the race of the Longbeards whose ultimate forefather was called Durin, a name which was taken at intervals by one of his descendants, but by no others but those in a direct line of descent from Durin I. Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards (Anfangrim). In the Third Age Durin VI was slain by a Balrog in 1980.

There [Durin I] lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

It was prophesied (by the Dwarves), when Dain Ironfoot took the kingship in
Third Age 2941 (after the Battle of Five Armies), that in his
direct line there would one day appear a Durin VII - but he
would be the last. Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that
they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and
yet naturally as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive
years of life in one person.

And the line of Dain prospered, and the wealth and renown
of the kingship was renewed, until there arose again for the
last time an heir of that House that bore the name of Durin,
and he returned to Moria; and there was light again in deep
places, and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps,
until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days
of Durin's race were ended.
Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him
that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it.

PREMISES

I just found these paragraphs from Hystory of middle earth. Which are probably the most detailed ones. I also inserted the family tree of Durin's line.
The lore in this case in not so reach, but most of the main elements have been used to create our personal storyline (see next spoiler: Durin VII timeline and story).
We are sure that the birthday of Durin VII was prophesied during BOTFA (2941 TA). He will be the last one and he will reclaim the fallen realm of Moria.
The precise date of birth is not mentioned, neither if he's the son of Thorin III.
Anyway we cannot exclude the fact that he was born already during the war of the ring. Being him the true heir of Durin, he can probably live longer (thousands years) and longer with respect to the normal dwarfs (some centuries): a sufficiently large age to rule during the Fourth Age and see the end of Durin's folk.
Following all these premises, we have crafted a new story without exiting from the edges of lore, and connecting this with the heart of the whole concept: the theme refusal of the ring and the last reincarnation of Durin (see the last spoiler: Durin VII Ring mechanic and Concept).

HANNAR THE HAMMER OF EREBOR (TA 2965 -...FA)

Hannar, the skilled or the Hammer, was born to Thorin III Stonehelm on 2965 of the Third Age. Hannar grew and was trained to become a mighty warrior—his name was selected for his unique proclivity towards working metals and other forgings. Many Dwarfs felt this was a unique gift to acquire at such a young age, and rumors begin to thrive that Durin’s hand was upon the young dwarf. Eventually Hannar became a master smith, able to work the most precious jewels and hew great weapons of metal and Mithril.

(Young Hannar)

By age 36, Hannar had risen through the ranks as an incredulous warrior—able to wield a hammer or axe superior to any dwarf in Erebor.  Such was his skill and master of the Dwarvish arts, that his grandfather, King Dain II Ironfoot asked him to accompany the revered hero Bilbo Baggins to Erebor. Gathered together with Nar, and Anar—Hannar physically escorted Bilbo to Imladris in 3001 TA. There, Hannar and his warriors departed back to Erebor. Hannar had accomplished his first mission and a celebration was held. This was considered very rare for a Dwarf of Hannar’s age as he was the youngest of the three Dwarfs and it was said that Dwarfs were not ready for such burden till the age of 40, but seeing Hannar excel as he once did, King Dain II had great faith in his grandson and knew he could accomplish much.

(Hannar the Skilled Blacksmith)

Several years later, Hannar would see his grandfather reject the offer of Sauron’s messenger for Durin’s ring in 3018. In 3019 at age 54, Hannar participated in the Battle of Dale where his grandfather King Dain II fell in battle fighting over the body of King Brand. Hannar fought with the heroes of Erebor and his father Thorin III. Eventually, the Easterling hoard was broken and Erebor was victorious following the One Ring’s destruction and Sauron’s departure from middle earth. 

(The Battle of Dale)

Thorin III became king of Erebor and ruled justly in his father’s stead for many years. During his rule, Thorin saw Gimli become Lord of the Glittering Caves and sought to recolonize Moria. Over time, Thorin III grew old and while his son Hannar fought in Moria.

(The Last Battle to reclaim Khazad-dûm)

While fighting against the Goblins of Moria, Hannar began to recognize many stone monuments and structures. Hannar fought his way through hordes of Goblins and slew everything that stood before him. Seeing himself fulfilling the legends of old, Hannar proclaimed himself Durin VII at age 176 (120 of the Fourth Age). At age 230 (174 FA) Moria had been reclaimed and Thorin III departed from the world—Durin VII, (envisioning and bearing the spirits of the Durin’s before him) ruled with longevity in his father’s stead deep into the Fourth Age.

Eventually the Dwarfs disappeared into their halls of stone. Durin VII and the Dwarfs passed from middle earth, but left a host of legends that would carry on throughout time as well as the tales of the descendant of Thorin III, Hannar the last king of the Dwarfs.
 

(Durin VII the Last)

Sources:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Durin_VII

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thorin_Stonehelm

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/D%C3%A1in_Ironfoot

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bilbo_Baggins

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hannar

Here there's a list of old norse dwarves names, from which Tolkien himself taken the majority of the dwarven names, you will surely recognize many other names together with Hanarr (Hannar) (examples: Gandalfr-->Gandalf, Yngvi-->Ingwe):

https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&did=67368&kod=ARL100258

DURIN VII IN GAME

Ring mechanic: the theme of refusal

Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dàin, but not
from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who
called Dàin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he
said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it,
such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning
hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. ‘‘For
Sauron knows,’’ said he, ‘‘that one of these was known to
you on a time.’’
At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer.
And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have
sweetened it if he could. ‘‘As a small token only of your
friendship Sauron asks this,’’ he said: ‘‘that you should find
this thief,’’ such was his word, ‘‘and get from him, willing or
no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but
a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will.
Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old
shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be
yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still
lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting
friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem
so well. Do you refuse?’’
At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who
stood by shuddered, but Dàin said: ‘‘I say neither yea nor
nay. I must consider this message and what it means under
its fair cloak.’’
‘‘Consider well, but not too long,’’ said he.
‘‘The time of my thought is my own to spend,’’ answered
Da´in.
‘‘For the present,’’ said he, and rode into the darkness.
Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that
night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn
us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew
already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not
changed, and ever it betrayed us of old. Twice the messenger
has returned, and has gone unanswered. The third and last
time, so he says, is soon to come, before the ending of the
year.

We decided to link King Dain with the theme of refusal of the ring: King Dain it is the oldest and so possibly the wisest king of the three realm in game. Furthermore,following the events of the book, he also refuses three ring of the dwarves offered by Sauron: this fact makes his character even more "evil resistance".

King Dain Ring Function: King Dain gives up the ring to his grandson, which he's recognized as the true reincarnation of Durin I. He's so the only one who can  use it in a proper way, without being corrupted by its evil influence. With the one ring his spirit is further strengthen, awakening totally the original power of his ancestor.
Durin VII (Hannar) is summoned directly near Dain, starting from level 1 and with the following values:
HP: 4500
Melee damage: 400

The new hero of Erebor will be so only a ring feature, freeing us of the burden of createing a new recruitable hero.
Hannar is simply directly summoned as Durin VII, with all the abilities (very similar) of his ancestor, that are fully awekened thanks to the ring's power. The birth name of Durin VII it won't appear in the game (in case, only in the description of Ring mechanic) leaving a sort of mystery around him (as in the lore).

We discuss multiple times the double choice, because currently it is a unique future of Galadriel. As we have demostrated through the lore, the refusal is the most canonical, and it would be very good and unique to have only this choice, getting rid of the old system.

Concept and models

(Durin VII initial equipment)               (Durin VII legendary equipment)

Level 1:"Durin The Last" (passive): Durin VII is the last King of the Dwarves and the true reincarnation of Durin I.  He will lead his folk until the end of the Dwarven race will come. Durin escapes death for a long time after his healthbar is spent.
This ability remains the same, but it is adapted for the new Durin

Level 3: "Master of Defence": the ancient knowledge in stone mastery of the first forefather lives again through his heir: Durin VII use it to make the defences of the Dwarves indestructible. All the allied walls,towers,gates in the selected area (wide) will be significantly strengthen.
I change the ability as only defensive because it fits very well with the dwarves, and also it is not redundant with runes because it affects towers gates and walls. in light of the new siege overhaul I think it could be very useful and cool to have such a power . Make it also offensive like in the past I'm afraid it could be too much op, considering also the new balance that the 4.5 siege patch will bring (the old combo master of stone + earthquake was devastating ).

"Reconquest of Khazad Dùm" : Durin VII undertakes a last resolutive journey to reconquer Moria. A group of elite warriors are chosen to accompany him. All the selceted elite battalions in the area will disappeard together with Durin (Arkenguard,Unburnt,Slaughterers or a combination of them). After some time, Durin VII will reappear in the battlefiled at level 5 unlocking the ability "Heritage of the Ancestor" reported below, as well as the abilites from level 7 on. The time of reconquest Moria will depend on how many battallion you send with him:

-1 battallion: 15 minutes.
-2 battallions: 10 minutes
-3 battallions: 5 minutes.

The troops send with Durin will return as Veterans of Khazad Dùm (if it is too much or is in conflict with the travel camp system, it is good also if only Durin VII reappear, imagining that his fellows stayed to Moria to recolonize it). This ability can be used at any level, as for the Pippin/Merry investiture system. However if the player don't  fulfill the travel, he/she can have only a weak version of Durin.
N.b: you can level up Durin anyway improving his statistics (HP and melee), but  without the travel you cannot have the complete skillset as well as the epic armor.

Level 5: "Heritage of the ancestor" (passive): Durin VII complete his path as true heir of Durin I during the travel to Moria. All the memories of his past life are now reemerged, and the great emptiness of Khazad Dùm is filled with new life. Durin VII gets +1000 HP and eventually finds the equipment of his forefather (change of the model from the first to the second showed above):

- "Axe of Durin": Durin the Last gains Aoe damage and  knock back thanks to the legendary axe of his forefather.

- "Crown of the seven stars": the legendary crown is now on the head of the last king. All the dwarves heroes near Durin VII are inspired and get +30% armor.

I simply deem this ability a good way to introduce the old equipment of Durin and to quote the travel written in the lore (and in our invented story). Moreover, the travel to khazad-Dum forced the player to recrutite elitè units and to wait until Durin VII come back from his journey, making his escalation to power slower (and so more balanced) and complete.

Level 7: "Word of Silence " : Durin VII speaks a Word of Silence. Enemy units in a wide area become afraid while allies are slowly healed and gain experience twice faster. Enemy buildings within a wide area cannot be used for 20 seconds. Left click to activate.

Practically unchanged, only nerfed a bit

Level 10: "Fire of Aulë's forge" - Durin VII the Last calls the aid of the Maker Mahal. Aulë makes the ground of Middle-earth burst into flames by the fire of his forge. Deals medium damage in a wide area around Durin. The magic fire of Aulë damages the equipment of the enemy unit : survived units get -25% armor and damage.

I like a lot this last ability, and maybe the last King worth the intervention of Aulë, as a last act before the end of the world of the dwarves. I also make it special, relating the fire with weaponry, which is quite logical since it comes from a Forge (not a random forge but THE forge).
Following the evolution of the skillset, the player have a more defensive and funerable hero at the beginning, but he/she will be rewarded at the end with the complete power of Durin.

The palantir images of the abilities can vary, i chosen them because i deem them proper and good in my personal taste. Maybe some of them can be more so to say "general" with respect to mine. You can recognize the depiction of King Dain of Vanilla  . That picture give me the feeling of an "old king", in particular the shadow that cover half of the face of Dain, brings a feeling of "The Last one", something doomed to the end. Moreover, the crown is very similar to the one of the model.

Credits for the model of Durin goes to the Fourth Age mod, that is a archived mod here in MU (DVZ mod). The second model is a fusion of the first one + the armor of Durin the Deathless (i made the collage using GIMP to show how it looks). Since many members are very fond of it, and since it is complete Edain style (no movie inspiration) i decided to keep this unque piece of art. Below you can see the old model of Durin the deathless, if you like to compare the two:

[Walküre]

It is holistically a very sound and detailed work! It boasts everything that a concept ought to comply with: a clear conceptual definition, lore premises, in-game perspective (as much as it's possible) and fine presentation. Once you manage to unify yours and Isildur's proposal, feel absolutely free to go for the showcasing thread.

A very decent example of conceptual craftsmanship, worthy of your very title, Aulë

[dkbluewizard]

Great job as always Aule. Enjoyed working with you on this project. Full steam ahead!

[Fancy Lad School]

I must say. this is an exceptionally well worked out concept, which fits in with the lore as well as with the gameplay! Truly you must have spent a great deal of time preparing, overthinking and obviously writing that and I respect your dedication for making this mod better!
If only some people could share their opinions about my new Ered Mithrin Overhaul, maybe then we could work magic there too... 

[dkbluewizard]

Fancy Lad School, post the link and I'll throw in my 2 cents. Everyone here knows that is what I do best   

[OakenShield224]

I love this concept for Durin! It fits Dain well and Durin's mechanics are very interesting.

One question, will Thorin II and Dain Ironfoot still keep the Durin's Forge ability. I am just wondering if it would fit for them and if they should have their own unique ability.

[AulëTheSmith]

No more Durin's forge, here's the concept crafted by Isildur  :

Standart abbilities of the two different versions of Dain:
I now re-read not only the ring-concepts of Dain and Thorin, but also their normal abbilities and it came to my mind, that Dains character-developement as described in the books (and in parts seen in the movie) is, as I alredy mentioned, somehow contradicted.

Young Dain was the one, who came with his army by forced marches all the way from the Iron Hills and was totally fine to let the situation escalate and fight against Elves and Humans. He doesn´t seem to me to be a defender, more an atacker.

Gandalf: It is Dain, Lord of the Iron Hills. He's Thorin's cousin.
Bilbo: Are they alike?
Gandalf: I always found Thorin the more reasonable of the two.

I know this quote is from the movie, not from the books and book-Dain was definitly wiser than movie-Dain, even trying to talk Thrain out of the Moria-adventure if I remember it right, but still he was willing to fight Elves and Men, before even listening to their cause. I simply don´t have the time to search for propper quotes and this one made me laugh... 

Old Dain was the friend of King Brand and defender of Dale, who was able to refuse Saurons influence. He fought at the foot of Erebor alongside the Bardingers against the Easterlings, indeed giving his life to defend Brands dead body. In the end his dwarves managed to be victorious against an army with superior numbers, so in my oppinion he seems to be the defender.
Additional this subdivision better suits the ring-concepts I have in mind, but you will see that later...

Based on this thoughts, I would switch two abbilities between the versions of Dain:

• Iron Hill-Dain get´s Baruk Khazad! and Erebor-Dain get´s Lord of the Iron Hills renaming it to King under the Mountain. This abbility is in a way the reverse of Thorins abbility with the same name which nicely points out the differences in character.
• Vendetta is transferred to the ring-function, while his normal version get´s Forced marches, which increases the speed of foot soldiers on the map for 30 second, but making them in exchange after that a bit slower for 10 seconds. Defend the Halls! is transferred to Erebor-Dain, who indeed died defending his halls and his friend.
• I also thought about switching Meeting of the Dwaven Realms and Forces of the Dwaven Kingdoms but didn´t find it necessary, in the end, they are kind a similar in my oppinion.

I´m aware, of the fact, that the Edain-team didn´t chose the abbility-sets for no reason and it all fits in the overall theme of precise specialisation for the different Dwarven subfactions, but I don´t see it in this particular case as a very big problem:
Dain is a late-game hero, so when he appears on the battlefield the player normally would have the opportunity to buy upgrades, to cope with the realm-specific weaknesses.
Besides that all the effects are either temporarely or only affecting nearby troops, so the over all theme of the subfaction would still remain.
I even find it more interesting to have the opportunity to somehow change tactics using Dains abbilities.
Just strengthening your already existing specialisation seems somehow boring.
Futhermore I decided to create those two ring-heroes competely new and give them entirely individual abbility-sets leaving Mahals Forge for DurinVII.

Thus DurinVII as a more defense based hero would fit in much better next to those two and all three of them have different assignments.

Additional it doesn´t make much sense for me to have a corrupted ring-hero with defensive strategy, because this would in the end compromise Saurons cause. Erebor-Dain or rather Durin VII wouldn´t have this problem, because there is no corruption of the ring involved. All his strength comes from himself.

Dain Ironfoot as ring-bearer
As mentioned before, the ring takes advantage of young Dains pugnacious nature making him even more proactive and impulsive and therefore leaving his home undefended.
Level 1: Blood lust (passive)
Due to the whisperings of the ring Dain becomes paranoid seeing foes everywhere and wanting to destroy them immediatly. He develops an Addiction for fighting and starts to enjoy brute force more and more. He completly forgets to reflect his actions and leaves his home undefended.
Dain puts on a Mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. He now uses the Baruk Khazad-abillity automatically in regular intervals, when in fight. This abbility provides stronger boni with each war cry and his own atack damage increases, too. All buildings gain passivly 25% less armour, so the player is forced to rely on his atack.

Level 3: Mount/Dismount

Level 5: Get ready for War! (passive)
Dain wants to focus on war and expansion, not on innovation.
All Hall of Warriors and Forge Works recruit much faster, but upgrades are more expensive.

Level 7: Vendetta
Dain scrapes all his forces together to take vengance for all the losses the Dwarves have suffered and smash his hated foes. Only a few are left at home for mining or other works.
For one minute all the Dwarven units on the map move faster and cause higher atack damage. In the meantime the ressource-production decreases.

Level 10: Meeting of the Dwarven realms


Thorin Oakenshield as ring-bearer
Level 1: Fili and Kili

Level 1: Dragon Illness (passive)
The ring takes advantage of Thorins desire to restore the wealth of past ages. He now is willing to risk everything even the lives of his friends to enlarge his treasure, tolerating no opposition and coqardliness at all. Mining and conquest of new ground are his goals and he is ready to fight anybody who stands in his way. His closest friends are shocked and lose their courage.
Thorin puts on mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. All mines and stoneworker produce more ressources, units gain more ressources per kill, but all the other heroes lose armour.

Level 3: Dwarves first! (passive)
Thorins despisement for everything "undwarvisch" deepens more and more and he focusses on taking advantage of his allies, only selling Dwarvish goods for horrendous prices but still expecting unquestioned loyalty. His allies feel cut out and grant unwillingly only the absolute minimum of support.
Costs for Upgrades of buildings and troops are reduced extensively, but Laketown-Units take a lot longer to recruit.

Level 6: Defend our Treasure!
For a short time Thorin and all troops next to Ressource-producing buildings are invulnerable.

Level 10: Gleam of the Arkenstone

As you can see those two mechanics play out completely different: Young Dain aims for a fast definitive strike, while Thorin wants to win the fight through a superior economy.
Each specialisation has also it´s downside, as it should be common for most "good ring-heroes" and you might have noticed, that in a way Thorin and Dain are opposite to each other, because their downside weakens the other tactic.

Old Dain (Erebor) as written earlier refuses the ring and summons Hannar instead as the ring-bearer. Therefore he isn´t changed at all, only his passive abbility is improved a bit:
Level 1: The incorruptible Ally (passive)
Dain became wise and highly respected not only from his kin, but also from Men and Elves. His Dwarven stubborness mixed with the knowledge he got from Gandalf about the true nature of the enemy (and maybe the Dwarven rings), made him immune to the influence of the ring instead giving it of and leaving this matter to his grandson Hannar.
Not only the hero, but also nearby allied buildings provide increased armour and fear-resistance. Additional Dale-units are recruited faster and/or cheaper.

[Trapper]

Proposals that include the history/lore are always very nice to read. Especially, when it is as nicely written as the one of you two.

Definetly, a very interesting and fitting lore and good conceptual ideas !