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Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: Garlodur am 30. Jul 2017, 00:54 ---Don't worry dk, I accept your reasoning for the sake of implementing Durin. I might not agree 100% with it but since this mod is only set at the end of the Third Age we have to deal with the inconsistency. Nonetheless it needs to become clear for what reason Durin deserves to be in the mod despite this time inconsistency. It is just something the main presenters of the proposal have to consider and write with utmost delicacy.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I wouldn't speak about inconsistency, but rather Of sparse information which is more correct for Durin VII. In this sense, there is not something that is wrong or right, simply the info are not detailed so we have to deal with what we have from the lore. We have to interpret the low amount of information, reasonably adding some pieces to complete the puzzle. I think our story is a good story in this sense.
Independently of what name we gave him, or if is or isn't son of Thorin III, the main points are:
- the prophecy of his birth was made during BOTFA in 2941 TA, and the ring was destroyed in 3021 TA.These are authentic information from the lore.

Of course is reasonable to place is birthday after BOTFA, and at least 20- 30 years before the defeat of Sauron (otherwise it could be too young during the war of the ring) , being him a ring hero.
That is just what we made in our story, you can't say it is completely right to do it neither you can't say it's wrong, simply as I said the information are quite sparse; and we have made a reasonably timeline to fill this gap.

I would speak also in this case in relative terms, to build up another point in favor of the introduction of Durin figure through Durin VII,comparing the old system and the new one:

some people at the very beginning of this thread complain about the old system of reviving a death character from a statue was not canonic and against lore: agree, there is no mention of that. The return of Durin is present in the lore, but the old form of reviving him was strange and without any base (as I said just multiple times, it sounds a bit like necromancy stuff to resurrect him physically from stone). Now, relatively to this old form, what do you think is the most canonic? The old system or the new one we made?
If you think of what we have done, we have simply chosen a timeline in an interval coming from the lore ( i repeat: there is not a precise date, but the interval is canonic :) ). From the prophecy on (2941) anytime could be good to place the date of his birthday if you think about it. The lore give us a time interval only, without further details: is up to us to choose a proper and reasonable date. So is it more lore-friendly to revive Durin I from a statue with his body and soul or is it more canonic to choose a date for Durin VII birth from a CERTAIN lore-friendly time interval? I think the second one :).
About the theme of reincarnation I won't spend further words, because I just add tons of lore proof about all the possible way it can happen  [ugly]. What do you think about my thoughts Garlodur? I wrote this poem only because I don't want to introduce Durin "for the sake of do it", but I want to discuss very deeply the lore bases and the reason to introduce him ;) . Well of course one of the reason is because we all miss  Durin  xD (at least 2/3 of the voters looking at the poll), but it is not the only one. I want to make the pillars of the concept as solid as possible, and my passion for Durin motivate me a lot in this direction :)
P.s: anytime someone will bring back the issue of the timeline inconsistency and so on and so forth, I will quote this comment  :D :D

As for you are ideas, partially I have just introduce something about the travel to Moria in form of task :). I'm working on it and I think I will share it soon here, since the interest about this thread is increasing a lot and new ideas are rising. As I said the most important abilities won't change a lot a part of details, because are too much iconic and coming from the old skillset of Durin I. But for sure The issue of balance is something we can improve, introducing some task and constrains. Be it clear: I wouldn't complicate too much the concept, otherwise it could be not worth too much extra work for the team, especially in this delicate moment.
Said that, everyone is invited to share his thoughts :) Garlodur I will wait the details of your task system :)

dkbluewizard:
Aule, I couldn't have said that better myself. Excellent job man!

AulëTheSmith:
Hello guys i'm back again to this post  :D I posted the last version of Durin VII, the lore and premises are the same as before, but the game implementation should be now more compact and balanced :). You can find it in my signature, and also i will copy it at the end of this message to make things easier  ;)
My willing for the future is to create a unique thread matching our work with the one of Isildurs Fluch, in order to present a new revolutionise dwarves ring system. I hope it will be soon (i'm a bit busy at the moment).


DURIN VII LORE


--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion: Of Aulë and Yavanna ---They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.
--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: History of Middle Earth XII: "The Peoples of Middle Earth" Chapter XIII: "Last Writings" Of Glorfindel, Círdan, and other matters ---For the Dwarves asserted that the spirits of the Seven Fathers of their races were from time to time reborn in their kindreds. This was notably the case in the race of the Longbeards whose ultimate forefather was called Durin, a name which was taken at intervals by one of his descendants, but by no others but those in a direct line of descent from Durin I. Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards (Anfangrim). In the Third Age Durin VI was slain by a Balrog in 1980.
--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: Appendix A: "Annals of the Kings and Rulers" III "Durin's Folk" ---There [Durin I] lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12 - The Peoples of Middle-earth-Of Dwarves and Men ---It was prophesied (by the Dwarves), when Dain Ironfoot took the kingship in
Third Age 2941 (after the Battle of Five Armies), that in his
direct line there would one day appear a Durin VII - but he
would be the last. Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that
they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and
yet naturally as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive
years of life in one person.

And the line of Dain prospered, and the wealth and renown
of the kingship was renewed, until there arose again for the
last time an heir of that House that bore the name of Durin,
and he returned to Moria; and there was light again in deep
places, and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps,
until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days
of Durin's race were ended.
Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him
that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it.

--- Ende Zitat ---

PREMISES
I just found these paragraphs from Hystory of middle earth. Which are probably the most detailed ones. I also inserted the family tree of Durin's line.
The lore in this case in not so reach, but most of the main elements have been used to create our personal storyline (see next spoiler: Durin VII timeline and story).
We are sure that the birthday of Durin VII was prophesied during BOTFA (2941 TA). He will be the last one and he will reclaim the fallen realm of Moria.
The precise date of birth is not mentioned, neither if he's the son of Thorin III.
Anyway we cannot exclude the fact that he was born already during the war of the ring. Being him the true heir of Durin, he can probably live longer (thousands years) and longer with respect to the normal dwarfs (some centuries): a sufficiently large age to rule during the Fourth Age and see the end of Durin's folk.
Following all these premises, we have crafted a new story without exiting from the edges of lore, and connecting this with the heart of the whole concept: the theme refusal of the ring and the last reincarnation of Durin (see the last spoiler: Durin VII Ring mechanic and Concept).

HANNAR THE HAMMER OF EREBOR (TA 2965 -...FA)
Hannar, the skilled or the Hammer, was born to Thorin III Stonehelm on 2965 of the Third Age. Hannar grew and was trained to become a mighty warrior—his name was selected for his unique proclivity towards working metals and other forgings. Many Dwarfs felt this was a unique gift to acquire at such a young age, and rumors begin to thrive that Durin’s hand was upon the young dwarf. Eventually Hannar became a master smith, able to work the most precious jewels and hew great weapons of metal and Mithril.

(Young Hannar)
By age 36, Hannar had risen through the ranks as an incredulous warrior—able to wield a hammer or axe superior to any dwarf in Erebor.  Such was his skill and master of the Dwarvish arts, that his grandfather, King Dain II Ironfoot asked him to accompany the revered hero Bilbo Baggins to Erebor. Gathered together with Nar, and Anar—Hannar physically escorted Bilbo to Imladris in 3001 TA. There, Hannar and his warriors departed back to Erebor. Hannar had accomplished his first mission and a celebration was held. This was considered very rare for a Dwarf of Hannar’s age as he was the youngest of the three Dwarfs and it was said that Dwarfs were not ready for such burden till the age of 40, but seeing Hannar excel as he once did, King Dain II had great faith in his grandson and knew he could accomplish much.


(Hannar the Skilled Blacksmith)
Several years later, Hannar would see his grandfather reject the offer of Sauron’s messenger for Durin’s ring in 3018. In 3019 at age 54, Hannar participated in the Battle of Dale where his grandfather King Dain II fell in battle fighting over the body of King Brand. Hannar fought with the heroes of Erebor and his father Thorin III. Eventually, the Easterling hoard was broken and Erebor was victorious following the One Ring’s destruction and Sauron’s departure from middle earth. 

(The Battle of Dale)
Thorin III became king of Erebor and ruled justly in his father’s stead for many years. During his rule, Thorin saw Gimli become Lord of the Glittering Caves and sought to recolonize Moria. Over time, Thorin III grew old and while his son Hannar fought in Moria.

(The Last Battle to reclaim Khazad-dûm)

While fighting against the Goblins of Moria, Hannar began to recognize many stone monuments and structures. Hannar fought his way through hordes of Goblins and slew everything that stood before him. Seeing himself fulfilling the legends of old, Hannar proclaimed himself Durin VII at age 176 (120 of the Fourth Age). At age 230 (174 FA) Moria had been reclaimed and Thorin III departed from the world—Durin VII, (envisioning and bearing the spirits of the Durin’s before him) ruled with longevity in his father’s stead deep into the Fourth Age.

Eventually the Dwarfs disappeared into their halls of stone. Durin VII and the Dwarfs passed from middle earth, but left a host of legends that would carry on throughout time as well as the tales of the descendant of Thorin III, Hannar the last king of the Dwarfs.
 

(Durin VII the Last)

Sources:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Durin_VII

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thorin_Stonehelm

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/D%C3%A1in_Ironfoot

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bilbo_Baggins

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hannar

Here there's a list of old norse dwarves names, from which Tolkien himself taken the majority of the dwarven names, you will surely recognize many other names together with Hanarr (Hannar) (examples: Gandalfr-->Gandalf, Yngvi-->Ingwe):

https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&did=67368&kod=ARL100258



DURIN VII IN GAME
Ring mechanic: the theme of refusal

--- Zitat von: The Fellowship Of The Ring : The council of Elrond ---Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dàin, but not
from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who
called Dàin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he
said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it,
such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning
hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. ‘‘For
Sauron knows,’’ said he, ‘‘that one of these was known to
you on a time.’’
At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer.
And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have
sweetened it if he could. ‘‘As a small token only of your
friendship Sauron asks this,’’ he said: ‘‘that you should find
this thief,’’ such was his word, ‘‘and get from him, willing or
no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but
a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will.
Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old
shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be
yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still
lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting
friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem
so well. Do you refuse?’’
At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who
stood by shuddered, but Dàin said: ‘‘I say neither yea nor
nay. I must consider this message and what it means under
its fair cloak.’’
‘‘Consider well, but not too long,’’ said he.
‘‘The time of my thought is my own to spend,’’ answered
Da´in.
‘‘For the present,’’ said he, and rode into the darkness.
Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that
night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn
us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew
already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not
changed, and ever it betrayed us of old. Twice the messenger
has returned, and has gone unanswered. The third and last
time, so he says, is soon to come, before the ending of the
year.

--- Ende Zitat ---


We decided to link King Dain with the theme of refusal of the ring: King Dain it is the oldest and so possibly the wisest king of the three realm in game. Furthermore,following the events of the book, he also refuses three ring of the dwarves offered by Sauron: this fact makes his character even more "evil resistance".

King Dain Ring Function: King Dain gives up the ring to his grandson, which he's recognized as the true reincarnation of Durin I. He's so the only one who can  use it in a proper way, without being corrupted by its evil influence. With the one ring his spirit is further strengthen, awakening totally the original power of his ancestor.
Durin VII (Hannar) is summoned directly near Dain, starting from level 1 and with the following values:
HP: 4500
Melee damage: 400

The new hero of Erebor will be so only a ring feature, freeing us of the burden of createing a new recruitable hero.
Hannar is simply directly summoned as Durin VII, with all the abilities (very similar) of his ancestor, that are fully awekened thanks to the ring's power. The birth name of Durin VII it won't appear in the game (in case, only in the description of Ring mechanic) leaving a sort of mystery around him (as in the lore).

We discuss multiple times the double choice, because currently it is a unique future of Galadriel. As we have demostrated through the lore, the refusal is the most canonical, and it would be very good and unique to have only this choice, getting rid of the old system.

Concept and models

(Durin VII initial equipment)               (Durin VII legendary equipment)

Level 1:"Durin The Last" (passive): Durin VII is the last King of the Dwarves and the true reincarnation of Durin I.  He will lead his folk until the end of the Dwarven race will come. Durin escapes death for a long time after his healthbar is spent.
This ability remains the same, but it is adapted for the new Durin :)

Level 3: "Master of Defence": the ancient knowledge in stone mastery of the first forefather lives again through his heir: Durin VII use it to make the defences of the Dwarves indestructible. All the allied walls,towers,gates in the selected area (wide) will be significantly strengthen.
I change the ability as only defensive because it fits very well with the dwarves, and also it is not redundant with runes because it affects towers gates and walls. in light of the new siege overhaul I think it could be very useful and cool to have such a power :). Make it also offensive like in the past I'm afraid it could be too much op, considering also the new balance that the 4.5 siege patch will bring :) (the old combo master of stone + earthquake was devastating ).

"Reconquest of Khazad Dùm" : Durin VII undertakes a last resolutive journey to reconquer Moria. A group of elite warriors are chosen to accompany him. All the selceted elite battalions in the area will disappeard together with Durin (Arkenguard,Unburnt,Slaughterers or a combination of them). After some time, Durin VII will reappear in the battlefiled at level 5 unlocking the ability "Heritage of the Ancestor" reported below, as well as the abilites from level 7 on. The time of reconquest Moria will depend on how many battallion you send with him:

-1 battallion: 15 minutes.
-2 battallions: 10 minutes
-3 battallions: 5 minutes.

The troops send with Durin will return as Veterans of Khazad Dùm (if it is too much or is in conflict with the travel camp system, it is good also if only Durin VII reappear, imagining that his fellows stayed to Moria to recolonize it). This ability can be used at any level, as for the Pippin/Merry investiture system. However if the player don't  fulfill the travel, he/she can have only a weak version of Durin.
N.b: you can level up Durin anyway improving his statistics (HP and melee), but  without the travel you cannot have the complete skillset as well as the epic armor.

Level 5: "Heritage of the ancestor" (passive): Durin VII complete his path as true heir of Durin I during the travel to Moria. All the memories of his past life are now reemerged, and the great emptiness of Khazad Dùm is filled with new life. Durin VII gets +1000 HP and eventually finds the equipment of his forefather (change of the model from the first to the second showed above):

- "Axe of Durin": Durin the Last gains Aoe damage and  knock back thanks to the legendary axe of his forefather.

- "Crown of the seven stars": the legendary crown is now on the head of the last king. All the dwarves heroes near Durin VII are inspired and get +30% armor.

I simply deem this ability a good way to introduce the old equipment of Durin and to quote the travel written in the lore (and in our invented story). Moreover, the travel to khazad-Dum forced the player to recrutite elitè units and to wait until Durin VII come back from his journey, making his escalation to power slower (and so more balanced) and complete.

Level 7: "Word of Silence " : Durin VII speaks a Word of Silence. Enemy units in a wide area become afraid while allies are slowly healed and gain experience twice faster. Enemy buildings within a wide area cannot be used for 20 seconds. Left click to activate.

Practically unchanged, only nerfed a bit :)

Level 10: "Fire of Aulë's forge" - Durin VII the Last calls the aid of the Maker Mahal. Aulë makes the ground of Middle-earth burst into flames by the fire of his forge. Deals medium damage in a wide area around Durin. The magic fire of Aulë damages the equipment of the enemy unit : survived units get -25% armor and damage.

I like a lot this last ability, and maybe the last King worth the intervention of Aulë, as a last act before the end of the world of the dwarves. I also make it special, relating the fire with weaponry, which is quite logical since it comes from a Forge (not a random forge but THE forge).
Following the evolution of the skillset, the player have a more defensive and funerable hero at the beginning, but he/she will be rewarded at the end with the complete power of Durin.

The palantir images of the abilities can vary, i chosen them because i deem them proper and good in my personal taste. Maybe some of them can be more so to say "general" with respect to mine. You can recognize the depiction of King Dain of Vanilla  xD. That picture give me the feeling of an "old king", in particular the shadow that cover half of the face of Dain, brings a feeling of "The Last one", something doomed to the end. Moreover, the crown is very similar to the one of the model.

Credits for the model of Durin goes to the Fourth Age mod, that is a archived mod here in MU (DVZ mod). The second model is a fusion of the first one + the armor of Durin the Deathless (i made the collage using GIMP to show how it looks). Since many members are very fond of it, and since it is complete Edain style (no movie inspiration) i decided to keep this unque piece of art. Below you can see the old model of Durin the deathless, if you like to compare the two:

Walküre:
It is holistically a very sound and detailed work! It boasts everything that a concept ought to comply with: a clear conceptual definition, lore premises, in-game perspective (as much as it's possible) and fine presentation. Once you manage to unify yours and Isildur's proposal, feel absolutely free to go for the showcasing thread.

A very decent example of conceptual craftsmanship, worthy of your very title, Aulë :)

dkbluewizard:
Great job as always Aule. Enjoyed working with you on this project. Full steam ahead!

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