Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

[AulëTheSmith]

I have to say thank you very much guys to all of you for your compliments, really
He took me some time to organize the work, but finally it becomes good as i wanted .
Trapper: is very good to hear the opinion of an internal member too, thank you!

[Melkor Bauglir]

OK, truth be told: I really like this concept of Isildurs Fluch!
Certainly more interesting as the generic ring system, so I'm all for it, eventhough I don't really know the current system. (I'm making my comment on the assumption that the Ring just transforms the faction leader into a slightly different faction leader.)
However, I'd like to point out that Thorin's system sounds like just an improvement, since who the hell cares about Esgaroth, especially in the LG and in 4.5 when only dwarven units get the +15%/+15% buff for having upgrades, whereas Dain Ironfoot actually looks crippling to the dwarves, since higher upgrade costs should massively outweigh fast recruitment. For an semi-elite faction like the dwarves recruiting units faster sounds like planning for failure.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Fancy Lad School]

True, I personally never felt the need for faster unit production because the dwarfes dont have a huge amount of buildings so there is nearly always space for 2 halls of warriors

[Garlodur]

Very impressive. The way you presented this proposal so clearly and succinctly is indicative of a great community member, Aulë!

Still I want to leave my own concept that I promised a few weeks back. Only this week I have had to space in my mind to come up with the ideas. I am glad to see you have yourself incorporated the journey to Khazad-Dum as a necessary element in the Ring hero's progression. I cannot compete with the background you have written so I will only build up on it.

Durin VII

For Durin to stand out as a Ring hero in general and among the Dwarves he needs to be represented as a truly mythical figure, who is in fact of higher capacities than any extant Dwarf simply due to the combined faculties of all his forebearers. This needs to be compensated somehow to make him not immediately overpowered at the moment of summoning. This is why he goes through a transformation that for the sake of gameplay is reduced significantly in duration. The way I conceived this is through certain tasks that need to be fulfilled in order to unlock his full potential. I hope to have found the right balance between an interesting, easy and enjoyable system in order to give Durin VII a little extra shine.

As a basic description I have not changed Durin's role much with how he was in earlier Edain versions. He will be an allround supporter and a mass-slayer, and therefore lack specific hero-killing, building-destroying, or debuff powers. His base damage is above average of a mass-slayer and has knockback effect. His base health and armour is also above average for a mass-slayer.

As far as the summoning from when King Dain picks up the Ring, my concept follows Aulë's proposition. However, the largest difference lies in the way the advent to complete strength is portrayed. There are two versions of Durin, one before the journey to Khazad-Dum, and one after having conquered it, that each have a different ability set. Both versions level in a regular fashion by slaying enemies.


Durin's Heir

Level 1 Durin's Heir (passive): In order to prove himself as the true incarnation of Durin the Deathless the Heir needs to regain the memories of his forebearers, which will unravel his extraordinary powers. His remarkable endurance is an essential feat to his ascend, and allows him to reject death when he faces the end. When his healthbar is almost spent Durin becomes invulnerable for a time.

This is essentially the same basis as the proposed ability with the difference that its strength is increased as the tasks are completed. With no tasks completed he becomes invulnerable to any damage for about 5 seconds, with 1 completed for about 10 seconds, with 2 completed for about 15 seconds, and with all 3 completed for about 20 seconds. This ability and its effective duration is transferred to his next form.

Level 0 Rune of Heroism: Studying the deeds of former kings and veterans Durin remembers their feats in battle and leadership. He leaves his personal runes on a Heroic Statue which encourages all friendly heroes on the map to recover faster. As long as the statue stands heroes earn experience faster and have their ability cooldowns reduced.

Level 0 Rune of Adoration: The knowledge to the art of war is recovered by Durin as he inspects Dwarven warriors practice. He leaves his personal rune on a Dwarven Barracks or Siegeworks which provides a great boost in experience gain during the first 2 minutes of every unit leaving recruitment structures.

Level 0 Rune of Protection: As the Heir ponders ways to improve Dwarven defenses he recollects the capacity of rendering stone less vulnerable to the elements. Applied to a Stoneworker, Mine or Lumbermill resource structures are globally more resistant to magic and elemental damage.

The three runes share a cooldown of 2-3 minutes that starts when the Heir is summoned. It involves a strategic decision which rune is chosen first, according to what aspect in the Dwarven army needs support. The runes are in effect until the target building is destroyed. In his next form Durin can no longer apply these runes,
 so the targeted buildings need to be well protected or their effects will be of short duration.

Level 1 Journey to Khazad-Dum (upgrade): Durin decides to journey to Khazad-Dum in order to conquer the lost kingdom and reclaim his heirlooms. He will return on Durin's Day.

Indeed similar to Aulë's upgrade, the difference here is that Durin travels without elite units who would turn into Khazad-Dum Veterans. I believe it would too much of an advantage that outshines Durin's own increase in power. Besides, the duration and cost of this journey are dependent on how many tasks have been completed before the Heir is sent away. Without any tasks completed it costs 1500 resources and takes 1 minute before he returns, with 1 task completed 1000 resources and 45 seconds, with 2 completed 500 resources and 30 seconds, and with all 3 completed 0 resources and 15 seconds. Including Durin's Day at his return is meant as an inventive way of bringing back the former weather Spell just once, and it warns the enemy of his arrival (just like Sauron's Darkness).

Indeed what I managed to present in this portrayal is that the player has the choice to either increase Durin's durability in the long term while supporting various aspects of his army, or get him ready for battle immediately with the risk of losing him prematurely as he did not fully regain his abilitities of legend.



Durin VII 'The Last'

Level 1 The Last Durin (passive): Remarkable endurance is an essential feat of the line of Durin, and allows the Durin VII to reject death when he faces the end. When his healthbar is almost spent Durin becomes invulnerable for a time.

This ability is carried over from its previous form with the according effect duration.

Level 4 Master of Defence: The ancient knowledge in stone mastery of the first forefather lives again through his heir. The Last Durin employs his skills to temporarily leave Dwarven buildings indestructible. Allied buildings, walls, gates, and fortress expansions in a large area are significantly strengthened.

I agree with Aulë here that this ability should be turned more defensive, as it also removes an indirect building-destroying power from Durin's skill set.

Level 8 Word of Silence: Durin VII speaks a word of silence that stops all fighting in a wide area for the benefit of nearby allies who are slowly healed. Enemies in the area are paralysed and enemy buildings do not function for a medium period of time.

I felt more attention should be paid to the silent part of this spell, effectively calling a truce in a large area without having to draw back troops. I also felt the ability should be drawn into a bit of a balance, because its purpose was a bit unclear, not only healing but also paralysing armies and fortresses.

Level 10 Fire of Aulë's Forge: Durin VII calls the aid of his Maker Mahal. Aulë makes the ground of Middle-earth burst into flames by the fire of his forge. Deals medium damage in a wide area around Durin. The magic fire of Aulë damages the equipment of the enemy unit: damage and armour of surviving units are reduced significantly.

The debuff on top of the damage will mostly be insignificant in effect but I believe it reflects the great power of Aulë's fires.

Level 0 Heritage of the ancestor (passive): Durin VII completes his path as the true heir of Durin I during the travel to Moria. All the memories of his past life are now reemerged, and the great emptiness of Khazad Dùm is filled with new life. Durin VII gets +1000 HP and finds the equipment of his forefather.

-Axe of Durin: Durin VII gains area-of-effect (splash) damage carrying his forefather's legendary axe.

-Crown of the Seven Stars: The legendary crown is recovered from Mirrormere. All Dwarven heroes near Durin VII are inspired and get +30% armor.



Thorin II, Dáin Ironfoot, King Dáin

Regarding the other Dwarven Ring heroes, I am not so convinced they need such a large rework as Isildurs Fluch proposes. I do want to swap the offensive/defensive role between the two Dáins, making the Lord of the Iron Hills a vicious warlord and King Dáin a wise king in charge of protecting the kingdom of Erebor. They respectively retain their specific mounts, as well as the Meeting of the Dwarven Realms and the Assembly Barracks: I realised that the King can summon subjects to fight for him freely whereas the Assembly units cost time and money, although the allure of a construction suggests differently.

Up to this point I agree and am in favour of Isildurs Fluch's concept, and I appreciate the effort to reestablish the Ring-versions of Thorin II and Lord Dáin around the parameters of greed and revenge. Yet I believe the proposed abilities are a bit confusing and cause too much of a disadvantage for the player, and especially lead very much into a direction that allows only one strategy, which is not very fun to play with.

I would be very happy to hear your thoughts and criticism on this concept, and I will further elaborate when asked. Feel free to share any adjustments in terms of balance, gameplay, or contradicting concepts.

[AulëTheSmith]

Hi Garlodur I'm glad you finally post your ideas about tasks system 
First of all, a thing i can affirm without hesitation: Durin's Day idea is the best i heard so far to bring it back, it matches perfectly with our concept. Absolutely agree with it!!  I will certanily include it in the concept. I'm sure many in the community would love to see its return as well

Don't be afraid about competition: first of all i'm not so expert in lore (i spent cosiderable time looking for the right information  ), i've still a lot to discover, and it is always a pleasure to learn something new. And is the right place to do it here in the forum I hope you've not understand my last answer as an offense few weeks ago, i was only trying to demostrate you the validity of the ideas behind the concept, i hope i convince you a more .

About the core of the concept: i was busy as well looking for a possible way to clearly distinguish the two phases of Durin (pre- and post- travel for Khazad Dum), with some new starting abilites outside the original ones. But sadly i found nothing that satisfy me, all sounded out of place or too much complicated. That’s why i finally i’ve chosen the current system i showed which is pretty compact. I wrote a note about Khazad Dum veterans, i know maybe it is too much, so that we can get rid of the travelling troops , thinking that they stay in khazad-dum to recolonize it  .
I cannot say i don’t like your ideas because the rune system could be useful at the start, especially the Adoration one. Also they are more fitting than mine when i faced this issue. Anyhow, i’m gonna ask you the same question i made to myself when i got to the point of double form of Durin: do you think is really necessary to further complicate the concept in name of balance? I mean if you think about the old Durin, it was simply summoned as it is, with the full power. I think we improved this point with our new concept, partially avoiding overpowering at the start (also HP and melee statistics are weaker at the start: less damage,less life and no knockback system).
A change of the first level ability is a a good idea and makes sense: before the travel shorter time of surviving after lifebar is spent, longer when he returns from Moria. But without liking it to any task in my opinon.
Specifically about runes (which is an argument that has always intrigued me): are you sure your system would not go in conflict with the current rune-set from spellbook? What is the number of runes you can apply to a single building?
I  want to know your opinion about the issue of trade-off between balance and complexity. For Thorin and Lord Dain you have to wait the answer of Isildur for a detailed explanation 

[Garlodur]

Thanks, Aulë. No hard feelings. I like the critical attitude that you exhume in this topic, as fit for the initiator of the idea.

I cannot say i don’t like your ideas because the rune system could be useful at the start, especially the Adoration one. Also they are more fitting than mine when i faced this issue. Anyhow, i’m gonna ask you the same question i made to myself when i got to the point of double form of Durin: do you think is really necessary to further complicate the concept in name of balance? I mean if you think about the old Durin, it was simply summoned as it is, with the full power. I think we improved this point with our new concept, partially avoiding overpowering at the start (also HP and melee statistics are weaker at the start: less damage,less life and no knockback system).
A change of the first level ability is a a good idea and makes sense: before the travel shorter time of surviving after lifebar is spent, longer when he returns from Moria. But without liking it to any task in my opinon.

I am very glad you ask. I put my mind to making a simple to understand concept that indeed would not cost too much energy to put into gameplay. Whether it is worthwhile is another question, but I think that largely depends on how much of a difference it makes to also have the first form of Durin implemented in the player's strategy. This depends largely on the effects and strengths of the runes, as these will be his only abilities.
Furthermore I believe that I made a fair balance in trade-off between the two forms, making it such that the second form can always be bought if people do not require any special support from the runes.

Specifically about runes (which is an argument that has always intrigued me): are you sure your system would not go in conflict with the current rune-set from spellbook? What is the number of runes you can apply to a single building?

Well, that was part of the struggle in creating this concept. In the first place it's well understood that the runes are unique to the Dwarves, which made me conclude that the mightiest ancestor of all Seven Houses must have had great experience in using them. This is obviously a type of magic that is already implicit in some of his former abilities, yet I felt the need to make his knowledge of rune magic more explicit in gameplay. I tried to work around the effects that the current runes (or the future ones) do not yet cover. Indeed most are in the line of buffing buildings and troops, but  this is expected from the epitome of Dwarven existence  Therefore I believe it fair to have similar runes as proposed to further strengthen the Dwarves, and give Durin a little more unique concept in having a roster of runes to support with.

I hope this clears things up a bit. It is simply my reasoning behind the question you posed regarding the trade-off of balance and complexity. I would like to hear the opinion of others whether they would deem this proposed system worthwhile.

[AulëTheSmith]

Sorry for the late answer, Garlodur 
I think your concept is anyhow a good idea, and i've understand your reasoning on the matter of trade-off/balance. As i just wrote in the previous comment, i've tried to think about a pre-form of Durin during the development of the concept, but without success.
Your concept instead could be a good starting point to discuss the initial form of Durin.

Furthermore I believe that I made a fair balance in trade-off between the two forms, making it such that the second form can always be bought if people do not require any special support from the runes.

In fact it is true, in this sense is similar to mine, such that you can undertake the travel whenever you want, only there are some constrains in time and cost.
 As for me, i like very much every element in the mod which can enrich the lore and the play-style of the character, and a rune-system for Durin is a fitting idea.
I'd like to know the thougths of the players and members of the community too, if they deem a more complicated system feasible for the starting form, given that both mine and Garlodur's ideas are meant to improve the balance of the concept.

Besides game-related matters and lore, don't forget that a more complicated system means more work for the team; and it seems not a good moment for extra-work  .
At least, about this matter, the Garlodur's system doesn't cross graphical (only in a small part) or modelling fields, which are the current most delicate issues for the team as i know.

P.S.: just for curiosity, have we converted some of the "unfaithfuls" who vote against the return of Durin since the beginnig of this thread thanks ot our concept ? JUst asking for joke of course 

[dkbluewizard]

I say we take a for and against pole. I for one am for Durin VII (aka Durin) returning to Edain mod. It is time for him to awaken again from his slumber.

[Dain@]

I support your proposal AulëTheSmith. This probably can be a significant element for dwarves. The only thing that I have a question for the fifth ability of Durin - The ability of mass destruction of enemies, probably not the best idea for gnomes, (this in my opinion).

[AulëTheSmith]

I support your proposal AulëTheSmith. This probably can be a significant element for dwarves. The only thing that I have a question for the fifth ability of Durin - The ability of mass destruction of enemies, probably not the best idea for gnomes, (this in my opinion).

Thank you very much for your support Dain@ Lord of the Iron Hills
About the ability: if you rember, it is the same of the old version of Durin The Deathless. I personally find it quite cool and fitting. Its reference to the powerful forge of Mahal the Maker, father of the dwarves, smith of the Valar is very evocative

[kingsjewel]

Sadly I´m competely inexperienced concerning picture-processing programms and therefore not able to upvalue my concept through suitable palantir-pictures for the abbilities. So if anyone who likes the concept and takes delight in this kind of work would help me with that I would be very thankfull and mention his work of course in the concept...

I hope you like my ideas and am open for critique. I know I changed the system radically, but found this necessary to make it more interesting.
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

In Favor:
1. kingsjewel

Sorry for the late answer, just I've noticed this. I hope these will be helpful:
1. Dragon Illness/sickness:


3. Dwarves first!:


6. Defend our treasure!:


10. Gleam of the Arkenstone:

[kingsjewel]

And there is my cutted Thorin sounds from BOTFA. It includes a few dragon sickness line. I cutted them for AotR team, but you can also use it, if you want.
https://soundcloud.com/user-472851655/sets/thorin-botfa-sounds
https://mega.nz/#F!xq4GSDZA!ezB4j9zLGllY0Qm0xElxog

[Gandalf7000]

I think one of these images better suit Dragon Sickness ability:

1.

2.

[kingsjewel]

Really better (personally I prefer the first) 
And what is your opinion about the 'Dwarves first!'? I hadn't any idea, what picture would fit with it, finally I chose a simple angry Thorin screenshot.

[Gandalf7000]

Really better (personally I prefer the first) 
And what is your opinion about the 'Dwarves first!'? I hadn't any idea, what picture would fit with it, finally I chose a simple angry Thorin screenshot.

Dwarves first could remain the same. It's nice but I think that it could/should show thorin with some dwarves so again i have 2 suggestions.

1.

2.