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Umfrage

Does Durin deserve to remain part of the Edain Mod?

Yes, he's an iconic mythical figure and he deserves to remain part of the Edain Mod
No, he doesn't have any place left in the Edain Mod after the overhaul of the Dwarven Ring system

Autor Thema: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod  (Gelesen 41264 mal)

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #30 am: 4. Jun 2017, 14:07 »
I'm quite torn inside in regards of what to do with Durin now. One of my main arguments of the previous passages of this discussion has exactly been the involvement of the One Ring in all of this. As you may understand from my past comments, I'm almost adamant about my conviction that Durin should have nothing to do with that evil artefact; the debate was a scope for trying to find an alternative path, so that we would no longer be bound to rely on the Evil incarnated to implement such fundamental element of the whole Dwarven lore. In case you sought for arguments, the contributions of mine in the preceding pages will offer you plenty of reasonings.

But the Edain Team has already expressed itself in opposition to the idea of using the earthquake via the summoning of the Dwarves' ancestor as an ultimate spell, in the belief that this option might complicate things in unnecessary ways. Furthermore, in order to make the said ultimate spell far smarter and more unique than it actually is, some people have proposed the introduction in the game of the giant earth-hammer from the BFME2 campaign; I don't know if I used the correct name, but the title indicates what it does: it is a monumental machine that Dwarves use to create earthquakes, even in remote parts of the map. Not only do I find this suggestion really apt and suitable for the craftsman/engineer-based nature of this race, but I also think it would be nice to connect such feature with some unknown knowledge and arts that Dwarves boast as their own personal secret (or some arts derived from the teachings of Aulë in Aman, that the Noldor had later entrusted to the Dwarves in the Elder Days). As you can see, there could be interesting aspects to toy with. If you just consider the Elven arts related to warfare, according to which the Eldar of Aman are capable of imbuing and infusing magic (their own nature) into their creations (like swords that sense the Evil and start glowing), it is equally important (maybe) that Dwarves be given an akin opportunity to show off their mastery of building, machinery and so on.

And we now come back to the prime issue of this topic: what place does Durin have in these proposals of ours? This I couldn't tell for sure yet.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #31 am: 4. Jun 2017, 17:49 »
Listen to me, if any of you want to see Durin again, then he has to be placed with Erebor. This is the most canonical (as I listed in my earlier reply) than anything proposed. I agree with Diewalkure that the Earthquake spell should stay, whether it is done via the Earthhammer as an upgrade spell on a fortress or just a regular spell is of no consequence to me.

However, the conversation about Durin is this: ET stated that when Thorin II gets the ring, he proclaims himself Durin, Dain does this as well and it makes both of them greedy and lordly. So why not actually give the ring to the guy that is actually destined to become Durin VII? Infusing the spirits of all Durin's into one thereby warding the ring's affects off. Durin is reborn.

Maybe I need to add some abilities to make you guys interested, though I am not as skilled as LordofLinks or Diewalkure on palantir pictures.

But I think the summoning of Durin by King Dain  should read something like this:

"Dain refuses the ring and gives the ring to his grandson to destroy. Dain's grandson proclaims himself the final incarnation of Durin and sets out to destroy the ring."

I don't know, something like that. But if you all want to see Durin rise again, this is the only canonical and right way. Unless Edain is willing to make another hero for Erebor and name him Anar (Dwarf who escorted Bilbo when he left the Shire--I used his name because I felt that Bilbo was such a venerated icon to the Dwarfs that they would have sent their best warriors to escort him since he help win back their home. Anar at this time I used as the earlier version of Durin VII).

So ET could use Anar and make a hero out of him and have him take the ring, but I feel they would complain about some type of statistical error, number, or work--so I feel the best way to implement Durin back in a canonical and right way is like I said: Have King Dain resist the ring (as he does in the book) and give it to his grandson (Thorin III's son) as discussed he was alive at the time of WOTR and this is the most canonical.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #32 am: 4. Jun 2017, 20:25 »
Yes, I'm leaning more and more towards the Ring-system option. It seems to be an inexorable conclusion, if we are really willing to see Durin again in the game. We could try to find a solution that satisfies the need to create some distance between the concept and the One Ring: I mean, we could come up with a kind of refusal of the Evil and glorification of Durin's figure, so that the idea itself of summoning the supreme ancestor is not very much connected with the One.

Anyway, I will open a new thread about the Earth-Hammer topic. I deem it better to separate the two things.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #33 am: 4. Jun 2017, 22:34 »
Well I haven't talked about this too much, but I actually did a timeline for Durin VII and how old he would be by 3018. 2866 Thorin III was born, and if he had Durin VII at the same age as Dain had him (99 years old), then by 3018 that puts Durin VII at 53 years old.

Now if we continue with the timeline, he is 56 when the Third Age ends and he is 176 years old when Gimli and Legolas leave for Valinor. So assuming the 4th age goes on forever (since we don't know when it ends) and Durin VII has the longevity of the Durins, it is most conceivable that Durin VII is the descendant of Thorin III as he is his son. Durin I lived over 2,500 years, Durin VI was 249 and was ruling in good condition until the Balrog killed him. We are not given any real dates as to how long Durin III-V lived.

So assuming the minimum years being 250 (like Dain) that would put Durin VII at 194 of the Fourth Age. However, we must remember Dwarfs are hinted to live an average of 250 years, Durin's line is longer, and Dwalin lived to a rare 340 years.

So in conclusion, as I have stated, I strongly feel Durin VII would have to be the son of Thorin III, given the short amount of time Dwarfs existed in the 4th age, the longevity of Durins, and the sequences of middle earth's timeline.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone and I too strongly feel that Durin should be brought back to Edain Mod. If not in hero form then at least if King Dain refuses the One Ring.

Durin VII IMO should be the best Dwarf of the Game, that is not to say the best hero or character, he should be better than Thorin II or either Dains. 
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Julio229

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #34 am: 4. Jun 2017, 22:44 »

Your analysis makes a lot of sense! I think he should be the most powerful too, as the seventh coming of Durin.

May I suggest something? In the Path of the Edain map, there's an ally named Thogar, who is the son of Thorin III. I know he isn't canon, but there's no given name for Thorin's son, so... How about Thogar gets added as a regular hero, and gets the Durin VII ring upgrade? It would be cool to add a bit of "Edain Lore" as Angmar have, but add it to Erebor, and have an Edain existing character be Durin VII.

I don't know if it is a really good idea, but it would help avoiding to create new models and such, since he is already in the game.


OakenShield224

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #35 am: 4. Jun 2017, 23:37 »
I like the idea of Thorin III's son becoming Durin after taking the Ring. The only problem I can see is what role he should have as a regular hero. Erebor already have a scout (Nori), a Mass Slayer (Gimli), a Supporter (Dain), a Building Destroyer (Gloin) and Tank/Hero Killer (Thorin). Is there any sort of role that could be filled without completely overpowering Erebor?

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #36 am: 5. Jun 2017, 00:49 »
Guys, just a brief comment (my personal thoughts):
Is the citadel such an irreplaceable spell? i mean i know it is a canonic spell coming from vanilla, very well fitting for the dwarves. I like it too and i also use it a lot, but i don't deem it necessary: is in fact a much stronger version of the lone tower, in this sense it is redundant imo.
We have to consider that the last row of dwarven spellbook has never been changed since Edain was born (as i remeber from 3.8.1). Maybe in name of the innovation, fresh air, uniqueness of Edain 4 could we consider to change totally the last row? (i would call it "the Revolution of the last row"  :D :D ). My idea is to replace the Citadel with the summonig of the Earth Hammer proposed by DieWalkure. In logic of the new spellbook would work as long term spell (permanent building/weapon). An image of the weapon we are talking about:



It is unique, sophisticated and reflect all the engineering abilities of the dwarves. Using that beautiful weapon to cause earthquake we would no more need the earthquake spell and we would use this free slot to summon Durin (temporary, short-term effect). Even more epic would be the summoning of  an hero battalion composed by Durin and the other six fathers.
What do you think? Imo this configuration Earth Hammer+Durin is the best and it is worth the replacing of the citadel and earthquake :)

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #37 am: 5. Jun 2017, 01:15 »
Alright to Aule, Oakenshield, and Julio:

Aule, the reason why the earthquake spell isn't going to be removed and the reason why Durin would NOT have all six of the fathers is because they are either dead or missing in action during the Third Age. This is not Dagor Dagorath mod, so Durin VII is the only person listed--we don't even know if other founding father reincarnate like Durin does. Given that Belegost and Nogrod had kings/leaders that went to Moria, I would say Durin is the only one that reincarnates.

Oakenshield and Julio: Thanks for the love and support guys, Well I see the hero list that you guys gave, could Thorin III's son be a pure hero killer or hero interferer? Just a suggestion, remember, Edain Team may not like the idea of another hero, that is why I proposed Dain's refusal of the Ring to get him.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Julio229

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #38 am: 5. Jun 2017, 01:35 »
That's true, maybe the Team won't want a new regular Hero. If they wanted one, I think it could be one of the options you said.

On another note, would Durin VII keep all of Durin's original abilities?


dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #39 am: 5. Jun 2017, 05:50 »
Julio: I don't know, a lot of his former abilities got shuffled to Dain and Thorin. I think he should keep some, but he should have some new ones as well.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #40 am: 5. Jun 2017, 09:37 »
Aule, the reason why the earthquake spell isn't going to be removed and the reason why Durin would NOT have all six of the fathers is because they are either dead or missing in action during the Third Age. This is not Dagor Dagorath mod, so Durin VII is the only person listed--we don't even know if other founding father reincarnate like Durin does. Given that Belegost and Nogrod had kings/leaders that went to Moria, I would say Durin is the only one that reincarnates.

My dear dk, never thought about Dagor Dagorath even for a second. I didn't play, I don't play, and I won't play That mod ;). My fault I didn't explain better the reason behind a possible summon of Durin and/or seven fathers in the spellbook, I will do that,  I'm looking for some element in the lore  ;).
Anyway, Even if I'm not totally sure about your proposal for the reason I stated some comments before, the theme of reincarnation of Durin  is one of the most accredited and undoubtedly canonical :)
if we find a way to introduce Durin for all the three kingdoms using this theme, then I would be probably 101% satisfied :)
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Jun 2017, 10:35 von AulëTheSmith »

OakenShield224

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #41 am: 5. Jun 2017, 10:23 »
Another thing to consider is that each dwarven ring hero has a specific theme (Thorin's greed or Dain's defense obsession). Durin would need to have his own theme as well. The only one I can think of is something to do with Moria. Maybe he can craft mithril weapons and armour for other heroes and units as an example.

Concerning the Earthquake spell, could there just be a graphical change to the castles.This could explain how the dwarves can summon an earthquake any where as they would have the machinery in their base. The actual effect of the spell wouldn't change.

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #42 am: 5. Jun 2017, 10:39 »
I wouldn't mind having Durin solely available for Erebor, given its magnitude as the mightiest Dwarven realm ever existed in Middle-earth (in the Third Age, at least). I'll let you discuss freely about lore-related matters; just, as I wrote earlier, I think it would be better to focus on refusal as a theme to follow, in order to detach from the One Ring. This is the advice I would feel like giving you. For example, the refusal of such artefact, parallel to Galadriel's case, could maybe lead the hero who refused to be blessed by the Valar (Aulë), thus bringing Durin's memory back to life. I'm quite sceptical about the possibility of the legendary hero becoming an own spell; he's always been a Ring feature and the article concerning the new (overhauled) Dwarven spellbook shows clearly that they're not willing to give him any role as a permanent/ordinary character in the faction. The answer is therefore likely to be linked with the One. The only difficulty will probably be the construction of the lore foundations which sustain the concept, but I'm sure you will sort that out well, under the guidance of Blue.

Regarding the earthquake, I think that's the right opportunity to propose our suggestion related to the Earth-Hammer. I hope Aulë and anyone interested will follow me in the new thread I am soon to open :)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #43 am: 5. Jun 2017, 17:12 »
I wouldn't mind having Durin solely available for Erebor, given its magnitude as the mightiest Dwarven realm ever existed in Middle-earth (in the Third Age, at least). I'll let you discuss freely about lore-related matters; just, as I wrote earlier, I think it would be better to focus on refusal as a theme to follow, in order to detach from the One Ring. This is the advice I would feel like giving you. For example, the refusal of such artefact, parallel to Galadriel's case, could maybe lead the hero who refused to be blessed by the Valar (Aulë), thus bringing Durin's memory back to life. I'm quite sceptical about the possibility of the legendary hero becoming an own spell; he's always been a Ring feature and the article concerning the new (overhauled) Dwarven spellbook shows clearly that they're not willing to give him any role as a permanent/ordinary character in the faction. The answer is therefore likely to be linked with the One. The only difficulty will probably be the construction of the lore foundations which sustain the concept, but I'm sure you will sort that out well, under the guidance of Blue.

Regarding the earthquake, I think that's the right opportunity to propose our suggestion related to the Earth-Hammer. I hope Aulë and anyone interested will follow me in the new thread I am soon to open :)

I will surely follow you  8-) the earthquake need some changes. What I always feel about it is that it has a clear mechanics and body, but it apparently comes from nowhere. I would say the spell it is substantial, but it needs a "soul", a proper spot and name :)

As for Durin: well, if the team is immovable about a spell introduction of the character, another path has to be chosen. I'm here to find an optimal solution too :)
Erebor is the most important of course, but mine is a game related consideration: I would prefer to have a more "symmetrical" concept, in order to not force the player to choose erebor if he/she want to revive Durin :) .

I'm always looking for information before writing, wise Diewalküre. And maybe I can also summon you to help me in the lore matters  xD :D

About lore, i would consider three different legends/beliefs:
 
  • i read that there is a belief about the destiny of the dwarves after they die: the elves believe they will return to clay, from which they were initially created. After i read that i reconsidered the old Durin ring-mechanic : it was not so out of place reviving a statue using the power of the ring. A sort of inverse mechanism: if they return to stone when they die, with some power (evil or good) they can be resurrected injecting their souls into stone. But about this matter there is not so much.
  • The Dwarves instead believe Aule will reserve them a place in the halls of Mandos, and, after the last battle, he will gather them again to help him rebuilding the world.   
    Is there,so, any possibility for Aule to send back the dwarves in some phisical form to middle earth? Just as the Valar to with the Istari? I mean temporary. I've tried to imagine the hall of mandos as the hall of Odin: the dwarves, like the einherjar, await the right moment when they will descend again to fight (or built). Also about this matter the lore doesn't tell so much, and so i put in it also some element from our world legends (moreover, Tolkien himself takes inspiration from those legends).
    I would eventually use this last piece of role+legend to justify a summon of Durin or all the 7 Fathers : a final gift from the hall of Mandos, Aule send back his firstborns to help his sons in a final and resolutive battle.
  • the theme of reincarnation of the seven fathers, reported by dkblue :). This, like other two i listed above, is also a legend among the dwarves and there are not clear confirmations.

Quote from Silmarillion:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna
Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hanger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #44 am: 5. Jun 2017, 17:17 »
Well I have listed the canon reasons innumerably. Thanks Diewalkure for the support. I would like to see Durin as an extra hero with Erebor as the son of Thorin III, and given the timeline I posted it makes sense. However, if Edain Team hates the idea of adding another hero to Erebor then I am okay with Durin being a summon by King Dain--similar to Galadriel's refusal of the One.

Aule: We can't find a canonical way to introduce Durin as canon to all three Dwarf Kingdoms. Durin VII is most likely born in 2965 after the events of the Hobbit. Thorin III would be 99 years old by this time, same age Dain was when he had Thorin III. There is no way to make a canonical argument for all three factions. Remember, Durin VI was killed by the Balrog and had to stay dead for quite awhile. Durin VII is known as the last incarnation for a reason. I am sorry I don't have better news for you, but this is the truth. True, reincarnation is not fully understood so it is up to the interpretation of the reader.

Oakenshield: I like the theme you semi set up for Durin, on the project I have been working on, this is what sets Thorin III's son above other Dwarfs, it is his ability to make weapons like Durin the deathless, after all, the famed artifact of Durin's ax was crafted by none-other than Durin himself. Now I don't make the items of Thorin III's son as good as Durin's I items, but they are better than anything that the Dwarfs have outside of Orcrist the Goblin Cleaver. So I think a mithril theme would be good but I don't feel it should detract from the Veterans of Khazadum.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.