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Umfrage

Does Durin deserve to remain part of the Edain Mod?

Yes, he's an iconic mythical figure and he deserves to remain part of the Edain Mod
No, he doesn't have any place left in the Edain Mod after the overhaul of the Dwarven Ring system

Autor Thema: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod  (Gelesen 41319 mal)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #45 am: 6. Jun 2017, 17:54 »
Aule: We can't find a canonical way to introduce Durin as canon to all three Dwarf Kingdoms. Durin VII is most likely born in 2965 after the events of the Hobbit. Thorin III would be 99 years old by this time, same age Dain was when he had Thorin III. There is no way to make a canonical argument for all three factions. Remember, Durin VI was killed by the Balrog and had to stay dead for quite awhile. Durin VII is known as the last incarnation for a reason. I am sorry I don't have better news for you, but this is the truth. True, reincarnation is not fully understood so it is up to the interpretation of the reader.

Maybe you are right that there's no other ways, dkBlue, to extent Durin to all kingdom  8-| (at least not through the reincarnation theme).
The 3 different topic i have listed above are more or less equally affected by this sort of mysteries and uncertainties. So as you wrote to construct a solid lore-bases we have to put something that is our intepretation, but which makes sense of course :) .

The theme of refusing of the One it's a good starting point, i agree totally with that. I developed also an alternative in case we cannot make use of a new hero:

- King Dain Ring Mechanic : if he accepts the ring, he gets the current abilities developed by ET.
if he refuse, he received the "Gift of Aulë" : the smith of the valar reward Dain because he refuses the evil artefact, he send his first son to fight besides dwarves folk, to enspire and help them against evil.
The resurrecting mode  of Durin it depends on we can add a new hero or we have to pass through another way.
In the first case your idea of the reincarnation will be developed. In the second case i propose a return to the origin : Durin statue (the current name is simply heroic statue if i'm not wrong?). The basement of this proposal resides in the first+second of the three lore-topic i have wrote:



 If Dain refuses the ring, the Gift of Aulë would work in the following way: the Maker temporary sends the spirt of Durin into the statue, resurrecting him from the stone (from which he was initially created in ancient time). For a long time Durin is available on the battlefiled, staring from level 10 (similar to Boromir mechanic). When the time runs out (or if he's killed) the spirit of Durin returns to the  halls of Mandos, and his body simply turns back to stone (also graphically i think it would be a cool feature).
Technically speaking the system would work like Galadriel : you have the two buttons of evil or good choice, if you choose the refusing, firstly you click on the button, and secondly on the statue (or on the hero in your proposal) to inject in it/him the spirit of Durin.
I deemed a temporary summonig more suitable for my own porposal, because in this way you have two different (strategically) possibilities : the permanent effect (the ring), or a temporary mighty hero (blessing of Aule).

Wheter my proposal is extendable to the other two chieftain (Lord Dain and Thorin) i cannot say. Technically speaking yes (there's no need to have a new hero). But, if we consider King Dain the only able to refuse the One (because it's older,wiser, more experienced, he refused the offer of Sauron in the book), then it's again impossible.  In any case could be a solution if we cannot create a new character for Erebor. Consider also this : my idea is not so different from the old Durin resurrection system. In the old one, the evil power of the ring was used to transform the statue permanently. In my idea instead, the blessing of a Vala is used for the same goal with a time limited effect.
 I rely on your judgment guys  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Jun 2017, 17:59 von AulëTheSmith »

Dain@

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #46 am: 7. Jun 2017, 15:07 »
Good afternoon

Dear members of the community, I understand that the discussion on this topic is acute and important for the worshipers of dwarf, but nevertheless I need against the resurrection of Durin, by any means. If we take into account the timeline on which the data of the fractions are based, it is definitely clear that Durin has long been dead! And can not be resurrected in any way, not even by the reincarnation of his spirit. I understand that this can be painful, but it is not less likely to be uncanonical and unfair to other factions, because then most people will want to suggest resurrecting what kind of a symbolic hero for each faction. I have to oppose such an idea!
As for the ring of mechanics, it seems to me that Torin and Dane are both very important and significant characters, and I see no reason why we should return to the resurrection or the reincarnation of Durin.
However, I admit the fact that very often Tolkien describes various moments in dwarfs when they somehow connect themselves from Durin, very often they are called descendants of Durin. Therefore, I propose the following compromise: to make the book abilities: Sons of Durin. - All dwarf heroes receive a certain bonus. (I'm still working on a concept, since we already have a new spell book, and therefore requires an adequate and correct proposal). It seems to me that this would be a good compromise. Of course, this ability can be combined with the "Final Stand" or as a separate one. But in any case, I wonder what you think ??

Julio229

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #47 am: 7. Jun 2017, 15:55 »

You raise good points,but one of the suggestions was making Thorin III's son Durin VII, that wouldn't be against the lore because it is known that Durin VII, the last reincarnation of Durin, came after Thorin III, so he could perfectly be his son. I wouldn't find that to be against the lore.


AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #48 am: 7. Jun 2017, 15:56 »

Dear Dain, i understand perfectly your point, but i have a slightly different vision. The mod and the relative faction connected to it are MOSTLY based on the 3rd Age. Mostly and not TOTALLY.
Your are right, could seem unfair or uncanonical, but i think a bit of Myth and past given to any faction it is a very cool feauture and can only make this mod even greater. With a "bit" i mean under strict limitations.
There are just two spell in the game which bring a bit from the past, that are the Last Alliance and Power of the Past age, and are exquisitely fitting. I personally wouldn't mind if fans of other factions (which don't have those ancient feauture) propose something from the past (be it a spell, an hero or whatever you want).
You know, it's like having the "cherry on the cake", something apparetly less important, but that brings uniqueness and enrich the Tolkien-culture present in the mod. I repeat : all of this under certain restrictions. For example in the case of Durin the feature is related only to the refusal of the One ring. And also i even proposed a limitation in time (the Last Alliance is also a time-limited summon).
It's like the jing and jang : the mod is mostly based on 3rd age, but is a little bit of extra-contents that make it perfect.
I hope you get my view :)

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #49 am: 7. Jun 2017, 19:54 »
Look guys, if you read the timeline for Durin VII, you'll see that it is NOT against the LORE. And I am all about Lore. I have done the dates and shown that it is not against the Lore (concerning Erebor faction) anywhere else it would be. But Durin VII is the descendant of Thorin III, a son counts as a descendant of his father, and Durin's have longevity.

So I have proven my point many times over. One thing you guys CANNOT say is that it is un-canonical. I stand for everything that is canon with the lore. So that is why I suggested Durin returning with Erebor and Erebor only.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #50 am: 7. Jun 2017, 20:55 »
So that is why I suggested Durin returning with Erebor and Erebor only.

And this option would also spare us the burdensome task and risk of disrupting the current systems of the other two factions, centred on the leaders of the very faction (a quite recent concept). Henceforth, as Blue said, this I deem the best solution. I don't want to interfere or dictate a line to follow, but I would wholeheartedly suggest all of you develop the proposal with the focus on Erebor.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #51 am: 7. Jun 2017, 23:03 »
And this option would also spare us the burdensome task and risk of disrupting the current systems of the other two factions, centred on the leaders of the very faction (a quite recent concept). Henceforth, as Blue said, this I deem the best solution. I don't want to interfere or dictate a line to follow, but I would wholeheartedly suggest all of you develop the proposal with the focus on Erebor.

DieWalkure,Blue, and other fellows.
If you deem Erebor the only one (i agree that is the mightier of the three) then my will is to follow the wishes of the community and to find a common point between our views  :).

dkBlue, your timeline make sense, but still i have not figured out how to implement suitably Durin VII, unless we make him a recruitable hero. Supposing we can do it , your idea is still to channel the spirit of Durin I using the ring as you wrote before? And your view of refusal is the a passage of the ring from grandfather (Dain) to grandson(Durin VII)?

I found a very good model of Durin VII, that is the intepretation of the DVZ mod (one of the archived one in MU). i like it very much:


The complete article where it's coming from is this one:
https://modding-union.com/index.php?topic=28524.0

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #52 am: 8. Jun 2017, 03:49 »
AuletheSmith: That picture is awesome and I would whole heartily love a new hero for Erebor. If we are going this route and making him the grandson of Dain and a ring hero, then I still feel we should go with the same premise and it can read as thus...

"Should (insert Thorin III son's name here) get the ring he will go on a quest to destroy the ring. (Insert) will channel the spirits of Durin and proclaim himself Durin reborn."

Something like that but I really like the figure you chose, however, I would like him to look more like gamesworkshop's durin model (if possible) but if not I am content with this. Also it might be good to show this model as a difference between Thorin III's son and how he looks once he proclaims himself Durin.

I love the model Aule and I think we should move forward with him as a recruitable hero, if not then we can try to implement the rejection of the ring idea for King Dain II of Erebor.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #53 am: 8. Jun 2017, 11:06 »
That is the depiction of GW your are talking about ?


It seems different from the current style of Edain (the miniature I think is 10 yo or more) but I like it :)
There's no problem for me in a possible introduction of a new hero. The fact is that is not easy because Erebor have a quite complete set talking about the specific roles:

- Dain: unit supporter
- Thorin III: hero killer/tanky
- Gimli : mass slayer
- Gloin : building destroyer/interferer
- Nori : scout

Another idea is to unlock him as a recruitable hero in the citadel in case Dain refuses the ring. More or less what happen when you unlock Sam and Frodo with blessed Galadriel.
In this case at a cost of 3000 you can recruit him as permanent hero, with the abilities (or some of them) and the power of Durin the Deathless.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Jun 2017, 01:16 von AulëTheSmith »

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #54 am: 8. Jun 2017, 13:44 »
I agree with this Aule, and yes that was the picture I was talking about, though now that I look at it, I think I like the model you showed previously. What Edain could do to correct this error, Thorin III could be more of a hero killer, while Durin becomes the tank, or vice versa. A lot of people have complained about Thorin III and that might be a good compromise.

However like I said, if this idea is too much for them. Then the refusal of the Ring is the best option, and I think Diewalkure is more in favor of that idea too. So maybe we should go with that. I like the idea of purchasing Durin for 3k I think that is fair.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

kingsjewel

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #55 am: 11. Jun 2017, 19:09 »
I think Durin VII is just the descendant of Thorin Stonehelm, not his son. (The line isn't permanent) But the idea and the linked picture isn't bad.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #56 am: 11. Jun 2017, 22:28 »
We don't know that either way. A descendant can mean son, though if it were Thorin III's son, why wouldn't Tolkien say? But in truth, Durin VII had to be alive during WOTR due to the timeline.

I see Durin VII being a loose end that was never really cleared up, much like the Blue Wizards. I think if Tolkien had time to expand this, then Durin VII would have to be Thorin III's son.

If you take Durin I who lived approximately 2,395 years, and Durin VII is the last--by WOTR, if he was Thorin III's son he would be only 53, and the timeline you showed us show that Durin VII is right after Thorin III, I mean, Thorin 3 is 155 by the end of the WOTR (3021) which = 1 FA. Now I believe he lived longer than 250 years old, I mean Dwalin was 340 and Dain II was still kicking but at age 250. So the timeline fits the description that I have stated.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #57 am: 12. Jun 2017, 01:24 »
I think Durin VII is just the descendant of Thorin Stonehelm, not his son. (The line isn't permanent) But the idea and the linked picture isn't bad.

It seems, in the end, the most canonical way to reintroduce the myth of Durin.
I myself proposed a possible way to introduce the forefather and greater of all Durin I the deathless (through both his original body and spirit), but it is a intricate road.
Making further researches i discovered theme of reincarnation seems the most canonical to construct a solid lore basement. Tolkien mention that the Dwarves buried Durin I in Moria, but they consider him as in a "longeval sleep" rather than really dead.
His spirit rests with his body awaiting for day would ultimately awake.
Focusing on this last point : it could be more logical to interpret his "awakening" as a spiritual reincarnation , rather than his original body walking in middle earth again. A real resurrection of is body from its coffin would appear less canonical i supposed, since those type of so to say "necromancy stuff" is usually associated with evil (Sauron).
But anyhow we are discussing about the first Forefather, not a random king of the dwarves. He was made directly from the hands of Aulë so also a real resurrection (spirit and body) could be possible in some magical way (maybe through the blessing of Mahal himself  xD). It is a very complex field in my opinion  :D
At least, with respect to other great heroes  of the past, he's the only one (if someone is more learned correct me) of which we have clear references of his possible return (independently of what way is considered more lore-accurate).
 
Anyway, returnig on our primal idea : there's no detailed info about Durin VII, except he's the Last king of the dwarves, and he definely reclaims Moria. We have to add some elements imo, as canonical as possible (Blue just started the process introducing the timeline of his birth).
So, stating that:
- he's the son/heir of Thorin III.
- he was (probably) born before the war of the ring and the death of Dain II.
How to connect him suitably with his grandfather and the theme of refusal of the ring?

Two brief scenario to start the development:

Scenario 1: Dain gives up the ring to his grandson, which he's recognized as the true reincarnation of Durin I. He's so the only one who can  use it in a proper way, without being corrupted by its evil influence. With the one ring his spirit is further strengthen, awakening totally the original power of his ancestor.
In this concept there's no a total detachment from the evil artefact, because is  used anyway.
However, like Gandalf the white, the evil power of the One is used to do good.
In game: when you activate the refusal option, Durin VII is summoned near Dain, and if he dies the ring is dropped.

Scenario 2: Dain totally recject the One, because he doesn't want to help his proud people using the weapon of the enemy, it can only leads the dwarves to destruction.
Dain passes the ring test and the dwarves folk is blessed by his maker Aulë : the smith of the Valar send a gift to his creatures, totally restoring the ancient might (sorry DieWalküre if i breaked the copyright rules on your invention :D :D) of Durin through the last true heir Durin VII.
In game: when you activate the refusal option, Dain VII is unlocked as a recrutable hero in the citadel, at a cost of 3000.
The ring is totally unused (as Blessed Galadriel case) and if Durin VII dies the ring isn't dropped.

What is the best 1 or 2 in your opinion? I'm still thinking about the abilties of Durin VII. If make them almost identical to Durin I or change some of them.
« Letzte Änderung: 12. Jun 2017, 10:21 von AulëTheSmith »

dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #58 am: 12. Jun 2017, 05:20 »
Aule, I like Scenario 1 better. I feel the Valar were not meant to intervene so much, and I feel that Dain giving it to his grandson and his spirit being strengthened by the Durin's of the past, would allow him to resist the Ring and awaken Durin prematurely. To me, this works the best.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #59 am: 12. Jun 2017, 12:20 »
Aule, I like Scenario 1 better. I feel the Valar were not meant to intervene so much, and I feel that Dain giving it to his grandson and his spirit being strengthened by the Durin's of the past, would allow him to resist the Ring and awaken Durin prematurely. To me, this works the best.

As game-play perspective I prefer the first either : it is much canonic and more fun to have the ring "droppable", because such is the nature of the One. And also make sense the restoring of the spirit through it, bacause as well as Gandalf the white I deem Durin (meant as spirit ) able to control the ring. In this case is not A total resurrection like in the past, but is meant to be more like a reinforce, an awekenig of ancient abilities.

Regarding the second one I would say it could be much popular because a total refusal brings to a pure blessing, separating the ring from the spirit of Durin (for instance DieWalküre suggested something like this as I recall). However this theme probably fits with Galadriel only, as an isolate and unique case in which the Valar directly care about people of middle earth. For sure Galadriel can be connected to Valinor easier than Dain II.

What do you suggest to add to the character to enrich his background story?