[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am  5. Jun 2017, 17:17 ---Aule: We can't find a canonical way to introduce Durin as canon to all three Dwarf Kingdoms. Durin VII is most likely born in 2965 after the events of the Hobbit. Thorin III would be 99 years old by this time, same age Dain was when he had Thorin III. There is no way to make a canonical argument for all three factions. Remember, Durin VI was killed by the Balrog and had to stay dead for quite awhile. Durin VII is known as the last incarnation for a reason. I am sorry I don't have better news for you, but this is the truth. True, reincarnation is not fully understood so it is up to the interpretation of the reader.

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Maybe you are right that there's no other ways, dkBlue, to extent Durin to all kingdom  8-| (at least not through the reincarnation theme).
The 3 different topic i have listed above are more or less equally affected by this sort of mysteries and uncertainties. So as you wrote to construct a solid lore-bases we have to put something that is our intepretation, but which makes sense of course :) .

The theme of refusing of the One it's a good starting point, i agree totally with that. I developed also an alternative in case we cannot make use of a new hero:

- King Dain Ring Mechanic : if he accepts the ring, he gets the current abilities developed by ET.
if he refuse, he received the "Gift of Aulë" : the smith of the valar reward Dain because he refuses the evil artefact, he send his first son to fight besides dwarves folk, to enspire and help them against evil.
The resurrecting mode  of Durin it depends on we can add a new hero or we have to pass through another way.
In the first case your idea of the reincarnation will be developed. In the second case i propose a return to the origin : Durin statue (the current name is simply heroic statue if i'm not wrong?). The basement of this proposal resides in the first+second of the three lore-topic i have wrote:


--- Zitat von: AulëTheSmith am  5. Jun 2017, 17:12 ---
* i read that there is a belief about the destiny of the dwarves after they die: the elves believe they will return to clay, from which they were initially created. After i read that i reconsidered the old Durin ring-mechanic : it was not so out of place reviving a statue using the power of the ring. A sort of inverse mechanism: if they return to stone when they die, with some power (evil or good) they can be resurrected injecting their souls into stone. But about this matter there is not so much.

* The Dwarves instead believe Aule will reserve them a place in the halls of Mandos, and, after the last battle, he will gather them again to help him rebuilding the world.   
Is there,so, any possibility for Aule to send back the dwarves in some phisical form to middle earth? Just as the Valar to with the Istari? I mean temporary. I've tried to imagine the hall of mandos as the hall of Odin: the dwarves, like the einherjar, await the right moment when they will descend again to fight (or built). Also about this matter the lore doesn't tell so much, and so i put in it also some element from our world legends (moreover, Tolkien himself takes inspiration from those legends).
I would eventually use this last piece of role+legend to justify a summon of Durin or all the 7 Fathers : a final gift from the hall of Mandos, Aule send back his firstborns to help his sons in a final and resolutive battle.
Quote from Silmarillion:


--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna ---Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hanger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.
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 If Dain refuses the ring, the Gift of Aulë would work in the following way: the Maker temporary sends the spirt of Durin into the statue, resurrecting him from the stone (from which he was initially created in ancient time). For a long time Durin is available on the battlefiled, staring from level 10 (similar to Boromir mechanic). When the time runs out (or if he's killed) the spirit of Durin returns to the  halls of Mandos, and his body simply turns back to stone (also graphically i think it would be a cool feature).
Technically speaking the system would work like Galadriel : you have the two buttons of evil or good choice, if you choose the refusing, firstly you click on the button, and secondly on the statue (or on the hero in your proposal) to inject in it/him the spirit of Durin.
I deemed a temporary summonig more suitable for my own porposal, because in this way you have two different (strategically) possibilities : the permanent effect (the ring), or a temporary mighty hero (blessing of Aule).

Wheter my proposal is extendable to the other two chieftain (Lord Dain and Thorin) i cannot say. Technically speaking yes (there's no need to have a new hero). But, if we consider King Dain the only able to refuse the One (because it's older,wiser, more experienced, he refused the offer of Sauron in the book), then it's again impossible.  In any case could be a solution if we cannot create a new character for Erebor. Consider also this : my idea is not so different from the old Durin resurrection system. In the old one, the evil power of the ring was used to transform the statue permanently. In my idea instead, the blessing of a Vala is used for the same goal with a time limited effect.
 I rely on your judgment guys  :)

Dain@:
Good afternoon

Dear members of the community, I understand that the discussion on this topic is acute and important for the worshipers of dwarf, but nevertheless I need against the resurrection of Durin, by any means. If we take into account the timeline on which the data of the fractions are based, it is definitely clear that Durin has long been dead! And can not be resurrected in any way, not even by the reincarnation of his spirit. I understand that this can be painful, but it is not less likely to be uncanonical and unfair to other factions, because then most people will want to suggest resurrecting what kind of a symbolic hero for each faction. I have to oppose such an idea!
As for the ring of mechanics, it seems to me that Torin and Dane are both very important and significant characters, and I see no reason why we should return to the resurrection or the reincarnation of Durin.
However, I admit the fact that very often Tolkien describes various moments in dwarfs when they somehow connect themselves from Durin, very often they are called descendants of Durin. Therefore, I propose the following compromise: to make the book abilities: Sons of Durin. - All dwarf heroes receive a certain bonus. (I'm still working on a concept, since we already have a new spell book, and therefore requires an adequate and correct proposal). It seems to me that this would be a good compromise. Of course, this ability can be combined with the "Final Stand" or as a separate one. But in any case, I wonder what you think ??

Julio229:

--- Zitat von: Dain@ am  7. Jun 2017, 15:07 --- Good afternoon

Dear members of the community, I understand that the discussion on this topic is acute and important for the worshipers of dwarf, but nevertheless I need against the resurrection of Durin, by any means. If we take into account the timeline on which the data of the fractions are based, it is definitely clear that Durin has long been dead! And can not be resurrected in any way, not even by the reincarnation of his spirit. I understand that this can be painful, but it is not less likely to be uncanonical and unfair to other factions, because then most people will want to suggest resurrecting what kind of a symbolic hero for each faction. I have to oppose such an idea!
As for the ring of mechanics, it seems to me that Torin and Dane are both very important and significant characters, and I see no reason why we should return to the resurrection or the reincarnation of Durin.
However, I admit the fact that very often Tolkien describes various moments in dwarfs when they somehow connect themselves from Durin, very often they are called descendants of Durin. Therefore, I propose the following compromise: to make the book abilities: Sons of Durin. - All dwarf heroes receive a certain bonus. (I'm still working on a concept, since we already have a new spell book, and therefore requires an adequate and correct proposal). It seems to me that this would be a good compromise. Of course, this ability can be combined with the "Final Stand" or as a separate one. But in any case, I wonder what you think ??
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You raise good points,but one of the suggestions was making Thorin III's son Durin VII, that wouldn't be against the lore because it is known that Durin VII, the last reincarnation of Durin, came after Thorin III, so he could perfectly be his son. I wouldn't find that to be against the lore.

AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: Dain@ am  7. Jun 2017, 15:07 ---Good afternoon

Dear members of the community, I understand that the discussion on this topic is acute and important for the worshipers of dwarf, but nevertheless I need against the resurrection of Durin, by any means. If we take into account the timeline on which the data of the fractions are based, it is definitely clear that Durin has long been dead! And can not be resurrected in any way, not even by the reincarnation of his spirit. I understand that this can be painful, but it is not less likely to be uncanonical and unfair to other factions, because then most people will want to suggest resurrecting what kind of a symbolic hero for each faction. I have to oppose such an idea!
As for the ring of mechanics, it seems to me that Torin and Dane are both very important and significant characters, and I see no reason why we should return to the resurrection or the reincarnation of Durin.
However, I admit the fact that very often Tolkien describes various moments in dwarfs when they somehow connect themselves from Durin, very often they are called descendants of Durin. Therefore, I propose the following compromise: to make the book abilities: Sons of Durin. - All dwarf heroes receive a certain bonus. (I'm still working on a concept, since we already have a new spell book, and therefore requires an adequate and correct proposal). It seems to me that this would be a good compromise. Of course, this ability can be combined with the "Final Stand" or as a separate one. But in any case, I wonder what you think ??

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Dear Dain, i understand perfectly your point, but i have a slightly different vision. The mod and the relative faction connected to it are MOSTLY based on the 3rd Age. Mostly and not TOTALLY.
Your are right, could seem unfair or uncanonical, but i think a bit of Myth and past given to any faction it is a very cool feauture and can only make this mod even greater. With a "bit" i mean under strict limitations.
There are just two spell in the game which bring a bit from the past, that are the Last Alliance and Power of the Past age, and are exquisitely fitting. I personally wouldn't mind if fans of other factions (which don't have those ancient feauture) propose something from the past (be it a spell, an hero or whatever you want).
You know, it's like having the "cherry on the cake", something apparetly less important, but that brings uniqueness and enrich the Tolkien-culture present in the mod. I repeat : all of this under certain restrictions. For example in the case of Durin the feature is related only to the refusal of the One ring. And also i even proposed a limitation in time (the Last Alliance is also a time-limited summon).
It's like the jing and jang : the mod is mostly based on 3rd age, but is a little bit of extra-contents that make it perfect.
I hope you get my view :)

dkbluewizard:
Look guys, if you read the timeline for Durin VII, you'll see that it is NOT against the LORE. And I am all about Lore. I have done the dates and shown that it is not against the Lore (concerning Erebor faction) anywhere else it would be. But Durin VII is the descendant of Thorin III, a son counts as a descendant of his father, and Durin's have longevity.

So I have proven my point many times over. One thing you guys CANNOT say is that it is un-canonical. I stand for everything that is canon with the lore. So that is why I suggested Durin returning with Erebor and Erebor only.

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