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Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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AulëTheSmith:
Isildur: it is a pleasure to me too to share ideas with you  xD. Don't worry i'm not afraid you steal honor  :D. I'm one of the two author but the concept is now on the hands of the community, so keeping the general idea of the concept solid, i'm glad to hear any new idea to improve all the other aspects, in particular the abilities and the implementation of the character, which has to be as reasonable and balanced as possible  :).
Regarding the dwarves realms, your idea of compensation is reasonable. To be precise about Thorin, yes he's quite selfish, so if you look at the aspect of personality only, is right to not let you collect the resources he gains into battle, but rather readress money towards something else. From a gameplay  point of view, the current system is not so bad, giving you a huge amount in battle but a very low production in buildings, forcing you to fight if you want to earn: this involve the risk you are talking about, so that Thorin have to risk his life and the one of the other dwarfs only for gold (otherwise you have a very weak economy) [ugly].
As for Dain your idea is opposite to the current one: the ring system increases esponentially the merit of the faction, the defence. I think in this case the team make a precise choice to put all the faction towards defence, making also the personality of Lord Dain as defensive ( it sounds strange because you could expect that behaviour from King Dain, the one who defended the gate of Erebor from a huge army of Easterlings  [ugly]): i suppose they make this choice in the name of uniqueness, with the standard logic of  Edain 4.0 to give a precise direction to each unit hero etc.

Regarding Hannar: i shall talk with dkblue, my colleague in the work. I will elaborate a new updated work in which i will eventually insert more options and also this last idea of a weaker starting hero. I think i will structure the work in two main options:

-the first more Edain team-friendly  [ugly], in the sense that it requires less work for the implementation in all the senses.
-the second more complex (involving these last ideas) but it would be more balanced than the first one.

Of course lore and story will remain unchanged, i will modify only the last spolier of the presentation :)

Diewalkure: when the work will be completed, i will post it in a new thread, making the things a lot easier. Then Isildur can traslate it for the German forum  :). This intense discussion and many comments means we have sparked a lot the interest around Durin return, and i'm very happy for that. I think the work it is practically ready as it is, but Isildur rightly raised the issue of the  balance, something that probably me and dkblue we have discussed less.
The core itself will remain uchanged: the refusal of the ring involves Hannar/Durin VII summon  :). Thank you very much smart and masterly moderator! your resources are infinite!  xD

Isildurs Fluch:

--- Zitat von: AulëTheSmith am 24. Jul 2017, 01:25 ---Regarding the dwarves realms, your idea of compensation is reasonable. To be precise about Thorin, yes he's quite selfish, so if you look at the aspect of personality only, is right to not let you collect the resources he gains into battle, but rather readress money towards something else. From a gameplay  point of view, the current system is not so bad, giving you a huge amount in battle but a very low production in buildings, forcing you to fight if you want to earn: this involve the risk you are talking about, so that Thorin have to risk his life and the one of the other dwarfs only for gold (otherwise you have a very weak economy) [ugly].

--- Ende Zitat ---
Still stronger than any other faction, but still I get your point. But wouldn´t it still work, if the relation would be the other way round?
I´d let him increase the production of mineshafts passively, which still makes it attractive to fight to get more settlements in your hands and give hime a bit money for every killed enemy if he is nearby.

Concerning young Dain you are right, I would let the young and the old Dain switch passive abbilities, when you get the ring, because it´s much more fitting to the lore:
Young Dain was the one who made his soldiers advance by forced marches in full armour the whole way from Iron Hills to Erebor to atack an army of Men and Elves.
He doesn´t seem to me like the thoughtfull defender he was in his later days.
I guess the Battle of the Five Army, where he fought first time side by side with Men and Elves, and the death of his relative Thorin really changed something in his character. Additional young Dain already is a more offensive fighter in the defensive faction beeing the only mounted Dwarven hero...

Besides that I don´t find the current ring-function very ideal concerning gameplay. What use do I have for a ring-function that strengthens me on a point, where I am already unbeatable? In my oppinion it´s far more attractive to compensate the weaknesses of the subfaction.
For Ered Luin this is already somehow working, it only needs to become more elaborated than at the moment and getting a bit darker, because of the corruption of the ring. For Erebor your defensive Durin-concept also fits in nicely. Only Iron Hill-Dain drags somehow behind.

I hope my ideas on that became a bit more precise  :P
Could someone post the exact ring-abbility-set of Thorin and young Dain, than we could talk about them in more detail. I can´t look them up at the m,oment for reasons I already explained...

I will also think about an abbility-set for Hannar and would eventually post them here if I find something fitting besides Mastersmith.  ;)
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

Ectheldir:
Ring-abilities:

Dain:

Level 1: Durin's Heir - Due to the whisperings of the Ring, Dain's pride rises to unfathomable heights, and he declares himself the seventh and last reincarnation of Durin. He puts on mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. The Ring fuels Dain's peculiar nature and makes him upgrade his defense into a bastion: allied buildings in a wide radius gain +50% armor and damage and +25% production speed. The Hall of Warriors now trains units instantly. If there is no dwarven building in the vicinity of Dain, he loses 50% armor, damage, and speed. (Passive ability)

Level 3: Mount/Dismount - King Dain is able to mount his war boar. Left click to mount/dismount.

Level 7: Defend Durin's Realm! - Dain orders the defence of Durin's realm. For 30 seconds, every allied building and all dwarven units close to a dwarven building are invincible.

Level 10: Bastion of the Dwarven Realms - Dain orders the construction of a giant fortress which becomes a home for units of all the dwarven realms and fights back against enemies. You may only have one Bastion in the game at the same time.

Durin's Forge - Dain calls up flames from the deep in a medium area around him, setting on fire all enemy units caught in his spell.

Thorin

Level 1: Kili and Fili - Thorin permanently summons his nephews Kili and Fili to fight by his side. The dwarves will be summoned at the same level as Thorin.

Level 1: Durin's Heir - The pride of Thorin grows immeasurably through the whisperings of the ring. He declares himself as seventh and last reincarnation of Durin. He puts on Mithril Mail, obtains improved values and splash damage. The ring feeds Thorin's desire to gather all treasure of the dwarves. Allied resource buildings produce 75% less; instead, Thorin and allied units loot huge amounts of resources from fallen foes. (Passive ability)

Fire of Durin's Forge - Thorin calls up flames from the deep in a medium area around him, setting on fire all enemy units caught in his spell. 

The Immortal - All allied units on the entire map become invulnerable for 10 seconds.

Level 10: Gleam of the Arkenstone - The sight of the Arkenstone kindles the hope in the hearts of Thorin's dwarves and inspires fear in the hearts of his adversaries. Nearby enemy units are temporarily stunned, while allied units temporarily gain +50% damage.


Edain-wiki is your friend :P

Isildurs Fluch:
I totally forgot, that this usefull Wiki even exists... :D

I´d like to present my ideas for the ring-functions of Dain and Thorin. Concerning Hannar I will wait for Aule, as the whole creation of this character was his and his friends idea. This will be a longer post and most of it is not about Durin or the ring-function at all, but it´s aim is to complete the topic by focussing on Dain and Thorin, thus the ring-heroes of the other subfactions.
My hope is to integrate it into the other concept to get a whole new ring-system for the Dwarves with alot more authenticity.
If it´s in the wrong place you can move it to another thread or write me and I will do it myself.

Standart abbilities of the two different versions of Dain:
I now re-read not only the ring-concepts of Dain and Thorin, but also their normal abbilities and it came to my mind, that Dains character-developement as described in the books (and in parts seen in the movie) is, as I alredy mentioned, somehow contradicted.

Young Dain was the one, who came with his army by forced marches all the way from the Iron Hills and was totally fine to let the situation escalate and fight against Elves and Humans. He doesn´t seem to me to be a defender, more an atacker.

--- Zitat ---Gandalf: It is Dain, Lord of the Iron Hills. He's Thorin's cousin.
Bilbo: Are they alike?
Gandalf: I always found Thorin the more reasonable of the two.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I know this quote is from the movie, not from the books and book-Dain was definitly wiser than movie-Dain, even trying to talk Thrain out of the Moria-adventure if I remember it right, but still he was willing to fight Elves and Men, before even listening to their cause. I simply don´t have the time to search for propper quotes and this one made me laugh...  :D

Old Dain was the friend of King Brand and defender of Dale, who was able to refuse Saurons influence. He fought at the foot of Erebor alongside the Bardingers against the Easterlings, indeed giving his life to defend Brands dead body. In the end his dwarves managed to be victorious against an army with superior numbers, so in my oppinion he seems to be the defender.
Additional this subdivision better suits the ring-concepts I have in mind, but you will see that later...
Based on this thoughts, I would switch two abbilities between the versions of Dain:

* Iron Hill-Dain get´s Baruk Khazad! and Erebor-Dain get´s Lord of the Iron Hills renaming it to King under the Mountain. This abbility is in a way the reverse of Thorins abbility with the same name which nicely points out the differences in character.
* Vendetta is transferred to the ring-function, while his normal version get´s Forced marches, which increases the speed of foot soldiers on the map for 30 second, but making them in exchange after that a bit slower for 10 seconds. Defend the Halls! is transferred to Erebor-Dain, who indeed died defending his halls and his friend.
* I also thought about switching Meeting of the Dwaven Realms and Forces of the Dwaven Kingdoms but didn´t find it necessary, in the end, they are kind a similar in my oppinion.
I´m aware, of the fact, that the Edain-team didn´t chose the abbility-sets for no reason and it all fits in the overall theme of precise specialisation for the different Dwarven subfactions, but I don´t see it in this particular case as a very big problem:
Dain is a late-game hero, so when he appears on the battlefield the player normally would have the opportunity to buy upgrades, to cope with the realm-specific weaknesses.
Besides that all the effects are either temporarely or only affecting nearby troops, so the over all theme of the subfaction would still remain.
I even find it more interesting to have the opportunity to somehow change tactics using Dains abbilities.
Just strengthening your already existing specialisation seems somehow boring.
Futhermore I decided to create those two ring-heroes competely new and give them entirely individual abbility-sets leaving Mahals Forge for DurinVII.

Thus DurinVII as a more defense based hero would fit in much better next to those two and all three of them have different assignments.

Additional it doesn´t make much sense for me to have a corrupted ring-hero with defensive strategy, because this would in the end compromise Saurons cause. Erebor-Dain or rather Durin VII wouldn´t have this problem, because there is no corruption of the ring involved. All his strength comes from himself.

Dain Ironfoot as ring-bearer
As mentioned before, the ring takes advantage of young Dains pugnacious nature making him even more proactive and impulsive and therefore leaving his home undefended.
Level 1: Blood lust (passive)
Due to the whisperings of the ring Dain becomes paranoid seeing foes everywhere and wanting to destroy them immediatly. He develops an Addiction for fighting and starts to enjoy brute force more and more. He completly forgets to reflect his actions and leaves his home undefended.
Dain puts on a Mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. He now uses the Baruk Khazad-abillity automatically in regular intervals, when in fight. This abbility provides stronger boni with each war cry and his own atack damage increases, too. All buildings gain passivly 25% less armour, so the player is forced to rely on his atack.

Level 3: Mount/Dismount

Level 5: Get ready for War! (passive)
Dain wants to focus on war and expansion, not on innovation.
All Hall of Warriors and Forge Works recruit much faster, but upgrades are more expensive.

Level 7: Vendetta
Dain scrapes all his forces together to take vengance for all the losses the Dwarves have suffered and smash his hated foes. Only a few are left at home for mining or other works.
For one minute all the Dwarven units on the map move faster and cause higher atack damage. In the meantime the ressource-production decreases.

Level 10: Meeting of the Dwarven realms


Thorin Oakenshield as ring-bearer
Level 1: Fili and Kili

Level 1: Dragon Illness (passive)
The ring takes advantage of Thorins desire to restore the wealth of past ages. He now is willing to risk everything even the lives of his friends to enlarge his treasure, tolerating no opposition and coqardliness at all. Mining and conquest of new ground are his goals and he is ready to fight anybody who stands in his way. His closest friends are shocked and lose their courage.
Thorin puts on mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. All mines and stoneworker produce more ressources, units gain more ressources per kill, but all the other heroes lose armour.

Level 3: Dwarves first! (passive)
Thorins despisement for everything "undwarvisch" deepens more and more and he focusses on taking advantage of his allies, only selling Dwarvish goods for horrendous prices but still expecting unquestioned loyalty. His allies feel cut out and grant unwillingly only the absolute minimum of support.
Costs for Upgrades of buildings and troops are reduced extensively, but Laketown-Units take a lot longer to recruit.

Level 6: Defend our Treasure!
For a short time Thorin and all troops next to Ressource-producing buildings are invulnerable.

Level 10: Gleam of the Arkenstone

As you can see those two mechanics play out completely different: Young Dain aims for a fast definitive strike, while Thorin wants to win the fight through a superior economy.
Each specialisation has also it´s downside, as it should be common for most "good ring-heroes" and you might have noticed, that in a way Thorin and Dain are opposite to each other, because their downside weakens the other tactic.

Old Dain (Erebor) as written earlier refuses the ring and summons Hannar instead as the ring-bearer. Therefore he isn´t changed at all, only his passive abbility is improved a bit:
Level 1: The incorruptible Ally (passive)
Dain became wise and highly respected not only from his kin, but also from Men and Elves. His Dwarven stubborness mixed with the knowledge he got from Gandalf about the true nature of the enemy (and maybe the Dwarven rings), made him immune to the influence of the ring instead giving it of and leaving this matter to his grandson Hannar.
Not only the hero, but also nearby allied buildings provide increased armour and fear-resistance. Additional Dale-units are recruited faster and/or cheaper.

Sadly I´m competely inexperienced concerning picture-processing programms and therefore not able to upvalue my concept through suitable palantir-pictures for the abbilities. So if anyone who likes the concept and takes delight in this kind of work would help me with that I would be very thankfull and mention his work of course in the concept... ;)

I hope you like my ideas and am open for critique. I know I changed the system radically, but found this necessary to make it more interesting.
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

In Favor:
1. kingsjewel

AulëTheSmith:
Hi Isildur :)
As i just wrote, the considerations you made about the two normal forms of Dain and King Dain make sense, more than the current one. King Dain fits more as defensive, it is the chieftain of a big (and stable) realm, and he defended it against the hordes of Mordor until death.
Lord Dain Ironfoot is instead the Lord of iron hills, a smaller realm, and he's more aggressive and inclined to war.

The point is: in the past (from patch 4.1 to 4.3) the abilites were reversed, in the same way you proposed (King Dain defensive, Lord dain offensive). Then from patch 4.4 on the team exchanged the abilities between the two Dain, because of the new ring system and also ,as we discussed, to emphasize the peculiarity of each realm  through the respective leaders. Said that, i don't think they have the intention to switch the two character again for the second time  [ugly]. As i understand, the so called "Dain dilemma", usually mentioned in the forum, is exactly this "dribble" of the skills between Young and old Dain, along with the defensive obsession of Lord Dain Ring hero  [ugly].
As for Thorin, your skillset is good because it ecompass not only the greed, but also the stubborness and blindess of Thorin, who is so sick for gold to forget who is his enemy and who is his friend (well reflected when you cannot recruit lake town unit and in the heroes discouragement ;)).

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