Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

[dkbluewizard]

You know Aule, I actually like your model, but I am up for a compromise as well. I like the uniqueness proposed by you for Durin VII, but Diewalkure has a point about Durin's looking like each other (which I agree with). To me, as long as Durin is included in the Erebor faction and back in Edain, I am okay with whatever model is chosen.

[Walküre]

Exactly, the main point is the tale that wants every Durin to resemble his predecessors. Yet, adding to that, I feel that we should make usage of what we already have at disposal, which is totally Edain-based. Changing things feels like tempering with a sound concept to me; a quite unnecessary choice. In my personal opinion, of course.

[AulëTheSmith]

Exactly, the main point is the tale that wants every Durin to resemble his predecessors. Yet, adding to that, I feel that we should make usage of what we already have at disposal, which is totally Edain-based. Changing things feels like tempering with a sound concept to me; a quite unnecessary choice. In my personal opinion, of course.

I understand your point Diewalküre. I agree that the model/graphic is not the primal thing, the concept is of course the most important. We know that every Durin resamble Durin I, in some way. But even if they are very similar they are not exactly the same. I want to preserve at least something unique about the character.
I know is not a good moment for the graphical/modeling department of ET. I don't want to force them doing too much extra-work in this sense. I like the old armor, because is something unique not coming from movies but a brilliant invented design (the author is Adamin?). Why not fuse the body of my model with the old armor? With some retouch?
As I propose before could be good to use a normal armor before rank 5, then Durin finds the equipment of his ancestor, so he gets the old armor and axe (I think the models I find of the archived mod are ready as well).

If you are trying to say me if I ask something like that the probabilities that the team consider our idea drastically decrease I think I have to give up    in the name of all work and passion me and dk spent for this concept.
Jokes apart, I would like to preserve something of my model if it is possible, to let something unique about Hannar, not only Durin VII otherwise I will eventually be happy as well with the old model if the community deem it more suitable and reasonable it is not so fundamental to compromise the all project 
Just an experiment (seems not so bad):

[Dain@]

Hello! In my personal opinion, we should look at Durin in a different plane. Durin as a physical hero in my opinion can not be resurrected / reincarnated or somehow some images returned to Edain mod. Until recently, I thought that maybe you can make Durin a hero for Erebor, but I still understand that you can not return it to the game because of unreliability, and inconsistencies on a time scale. Even though we know that the last dwarves  king is Durin, son of Thorin, I do not think that only the name itself gives us the right to swing that it is the same forefather of the dwarves. The current system in terms of balance, and ease of implementation through the Dain / Thorin, seems more appropriate to me. Yes ! There are shortcomings, but all are easily repairable. Nevertheless, I suggest that Durin be implemented in a different way. It is known that very often gnomes said (especially from the royal dynasties) that they are the descendants of Durin. In principle, the only way to somehow underscore the belonging of the dwarves to their forefather, is that it is possible to add to the spellbook the ability of "Sons of Durin" which would give a small bonus for dwarven heroes. (But not the increase in damage or armor,). For example, each or a separate hero (leader) will receive a certain specialized ability that would reflect the former grandeur of dwarves art. (Construction,, blacksmithing, gold mining and expensive metals). But it is unequivocal that from the physical Durin should be refused. This is my opinion.

[dkbluewizard]

Dain@ that sounds more complicated than what we presented, and if you look at the timeline and canon (which Aule and I put together), you'll see that the timeline is perfect and works. So that is negated in your argument. Our proposal is totally lore friendly and goes more with facts than opinions.

[AulëTheSmith]

Hi Dain
I respect your opinion, really. I think the point you raised is the very reason of why this all thread/poll made by DieWalküre is born I agree that the old system can look not consistent and not solid : to reborn Durin from a statue is not so canonical, and as I just wrote sound a bit Of "necromancy". However, looking at the lore, the theme of reaincarnation seems the most canonical. It is something that, say what you want, is part of the dwarven culture.
I can affirm, without any claims, that our system is way more solid than the old one (in term of lore at least). I don't get why you deem the physical form "unrealiable". Durin VII is the last king and he reconquers Moria: if Durin I will eventually return, undoubtedly Durin the Last is the most probable heir which could host the spirit of the forefather.
The time scale has been demonstrated in the presentation, even if We added something by our interpretation (lore-based in any case).
As for the spellbook: I don't think the team wanna introduce new powers. As I understand they are very happy with the last they presented ( a part of minor changes).
That's my view 

[Dain@]

Dear AulëTheSmith and dkbluewizard . I am a Dwarf worshiper myself. But as for Durin (son of Thorin) as a separate hero for Erebor, I agree that both the timeline and knowledge allow your offer to have very high chances of success. I'm just against the reincarnation of the forefather Durin in some form. (No matter Torin, Dain or another hero). He's just dead long ago, and in my opinion he can not be reincarnated. After all, if the son of Thorin Stonelm, bears the name Durin, this does not yet imply the reincarnation of the pro-father himself. In my understanding (I do not know if it's appropriate, but it may be analogous when Theoden in the Paleonor Fields called the Rohirim into battle, calling them Eorlings.) - that is, thinking that they will inherit something, what kind of valor is the kind of valor, so Durin and herself are the incarnation Certain qualities are peculiar to dwarves. I'm not against mechanics and the implementation system, I'm against the very concept of reincarnation (Even for Thorin and Dain).
Your work deserves praise, after all it is very intelligently and canonically invented, but as for me here is the same problem as Imaldris - the last aliance (Yes canonically and epically), but is it appropriate to bring back the army and heroes who have long been measured on the battlefield ???
I sincerely ask you not to take this text as a negative or an insult.

[dkbluewizard]

Dain@, I really don't know what to say about you being against the whole reincarnation thing. Cool, I guess...but if you go by the timeline and what is written in the books, the Dwarfs believed it--and I don't see how Theoden calling Rohirim Eorlings matches. But whatever...

[AulëTheSmith]

Dear AulëTheSmith and dkbluewizard . I am a Dwarf worshiper myself. But as for Durin (son of Thorin) as a separate hero for Erebor, I agree that both the timeline and knowledge allow your offer to have very high chances of success. I'm just against the reincarnation of the forefather Durin in some form. (No matter Torin, Dain or another hero). He's just dead long ago, and in my opinion he can not be reincarnated. After all, if the son of Thorin Stonelm, bears the name Durin, this does not yet imply the reincarnation of the pro-father himself. In my understanding (I do not know if it's appropriate, but it may be analogous when Theoden in the Paleonor Fields called the Rohirim into battle, calling them Eorlings.) - that is, thinking that they will inherit something, what kind of valor is the kind of valor, so Durin and herself are the incarnation Certain qualities are peculiar to dwarves. I'm not against mechanics and the implementation system, I'm against the very concept of reincarnation (Even for Thorin and Dain).
Your work deserves praise, after all it is very intelligently and canonically invented, but as for me here is the same problem as Imaldris - the last aliance (Yes canonically and epically), but is it appropriate to bring back the army and heroes who have long been measured on the battlefield ???
I sincerely ask you not to take this text as a negative or an insult.

Don't worry Dain@ your words are not negative neither an insult We are here to discuss, and debates are the soul of the forum  .
As for the reincarnation: it is something in which the dwarves believe,  and there are many sources about this theme. The belief is not only for Durin but also for the other six fathers. The heirs that bear the name of Durin resemble in some way Durin I himself, in the way they look but also in some skills. I think that Durin VII, being the last one and basing on the lore, could be the one who most resable his forefather.
A very key-word in all this matter it is the meaning of "Durin". If you look at the pdf we inserted (i find it very interesting especially for a dwarven fan) there are many names of the dwarves that Tolkien taken from the old norse mythology. The majority have the meaning which is not apparently linked to the personality of the character:  for example Gloin (Gloinn) means the Glowing one, Dwalin (Dvalinn) means lazy.
Durin (Durinn) is instead an exception, the name means "sleepy" or the "sleeper": it is not a case the professor chosen this meaning. In fact the dwarves don't consider him as really dead, but rather than in a deep sleep. The spirit of Durin never really goes to the halls of Mandos, but is waiting for the moment in which he finally awake. I think choosing the reincarnation we can adress this last concept in the best way: not a phisical awakening but spirtual, in his last heir which is Durin VII.
I really believe that is a good road to follow, i don't think i will change this general idea 
Sources:

… "The Dwarves add that at that time Aulë gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body, at rest, and their its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again.”

Dwarven names:
https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&did=67368&kod=ARL100258

Dain@, I really don't know what to say about you being against the whole reincarnation thing. Cool, I guess...but if you go by the timeline and what is written in the books, the Dwarfs believed it--and I don't see how Theoden calling Rohirim Eorlings matches. But whatever...

Eorlings because they are "sons" or "heirs", in some way, of Eorl the Young, first king of Rohan. Eorl is a legendary hero for Rohan, as Durin is for the Dwarves (but in different order of magnitude and different power of course). So i think Dain@ was trying to say that, from his pov, the best way to honor these epic characters is to introduce in game some power or spell that keeps alive their memory.
I think, anyway, the case of Durin is unique and the reincarnation/awakening theme is unique as well; you cannot find something similar in other folks of Middle Earth (neither via Eorl the Young).
So it worth the general concept we conceived imo, with similar abilities of Durin I;)

[Walküre]

Your work deserves praise, after all it is very intelligently and canonically invented, but as for me here is the same problem as Imaldris - the last aliance (Yes canonically and epically), but is it appropriate to bring back the army and heroes who have long been measured on the battlefield ???

Considering the Last Alliance spell as an example, I personally accept the logic of similar features, because they belong to highly specific or exceptional contexts, such as an ultimate spell or a Ring feature, as in this precise case. In light of these premises, the great uniqueness that akin solutions bring outweighs the negative sides by a far margin. Just think about Imladris; the potential loss of the Last Alliance spell might seriously be devastating for the conceptual design of the very faction, since the the whole motive of the cinematographic prologue of LOTR is of prime importance for the game. Something we could hardly do without.

I guess you should try to view Durin's situation in the same exceptional perspective

[AulëTheSmith]

Considering the Last Alliance spell as an example, I personally accept the logic of similar features, because they belong to highly specific or exceptional contexts, such as an ultimate spell or a Ring feature, as in this precise case. In light of these premises, the great uniqueness that akin solutions bring outweighs the negative sides by a far margin.

Indeed. In this case, with respect to Last Alliance, we have also lore confirmations. So it is even less "forced" so to say. I mean, nowhere in the lore is written about a return of Gil-Galad, Isuldur etc. IN this case instead it is repeated in different books that Durin can return, i posted in this thread all the lore available about the matter, and explained it. i don't know how to do more to convert the "scepticals" to the dark side of Durin VII 

[Walküre]

No, there is not much left to prove in regards of canonical matters. You have done a splendid work in that direction; your effort is simply apparent. I would say that what needs still be discussed thoroughly is graphics, although we've already debated those issues and the nature of the topic involved is certainly not that definitive to come up with a final answer. However, if there are further opinions to submit to the general judgement, that ought to be done, of course

[AulëTheSmith]

Diewalkure, i shall make a FOR/AGAINST list like other topics, valid for the general concept. In the meantime we can discuss about graphics, because it is a delicate issue for the team at the moment. I'm quite happy with a Durin VII wearing the robes of his ancestor. If it is too much, i can leave the idea of the double armor, even if it would be more interesting (same system of Elrond,Haldir, Boromir: from lev 5 on they receive new armor and bonus for themself or units/hero, that was my inspiration, and very Edain 4.0 style), and it would underlines better the path of the character.
What do you think about the middle way i conceived? it is something very similar about Beorn/Grimbeorn: models are the same but with slightly different graphics.

P.s: i have putted in my signature the link to the very post of the proposal; in this way ,despite many comments in the thread, is easy to find 

[Isildurs Fluch]

First of all, I´m absolutely in favor of this concept.
The refusal of the Ring fit´s perfect for the old Dain and the rebirth system is a much closer to the lore, than before. And I definitly can see you reconsidered most of the abbilities and changed them slightly.

Maybe it´s also worth to think about changing the ring-concepts of Ered Luin and Iron Hills a bit, to make them more sinister to show the corruption of the ring on Thorin and young Dain:

• Thorins ring-concept could be build around greed and ruthnessless, therefore generating a lot of money for the player, but without support for the own troops maybe even weakening them somehow.
• Young Dains ring-concept could be build around revenge or blood lust, therfore supporting the atack and speed of your own troops, but with some Mali in defense.

In contrast to those two, I don´t think, that there should be a choice for Erebor.
If Dain get´s the ring, Hannar/Durin should be summoned instantly without another option, as it is with Elrond.
The choice system should stay unique for Galadriel. The player already made a choice by choosing Erebor as your faction, and I suppose everybody would anyway go for Durin.

One other point we have to think about is balance:
The other factions just increase the power of a hero, while Erebor get´s one for free.
To balance this i have an idea:
The hero should be named Hannar in the beginning, because at this point his true nature as Durin VII isn´t revealed yet.
In this form he could be a lot weaker, than in his final form, because of balance and his young age. The first design is perfect, a very fitting simplistic, but noble dwarf. The picture you posted is also very good and should be used as his palantir-picture.

One could think about changing his abbilities in this form and make him more "normal".
The passive abbility should be changed, maybe to Mastersmith, which strengthens all the Upgrades of Units or something else.
His final slot would be the Reconquest of Khazad Dum, which isn´t linked to his level, but costs some ressources (maybe 1000?).
This is good for balance and also very fitting, because such a conquest is very cost-intense.
After that is done his true nature is revealed and he gets the exact set of abbilities you proposed. I would change the name of the last abbility to Fire of Mahals forge, because that´s, as you have correctly written, the dwarvish name for Aule and therefore a lot more fitting, than the elvish name.
The design could be a bit brighter and more mythical in my oppinion, but your design is a good starting point. Also I find the old palantir-picture of Dain fits very good for his grandson and Durins last appearance.

I hope my ideas helped the discussion and we will end up with such a good concept to "make Durin great again", that the team can´t refuse and we will see him soon in action 
May I translate this concept, after we discussed my suggestions and came to an agreement, into German?
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

[AulëTheSmith]

First of all, I´m absolutely in favor of this suggestion.

Danke Isildur, i will insert your name in the list 
Your ideas are well thought, starting from Dain:

-The current accepting system is very good and balanced, but i'm not personally fond of it. In the name of uniqueness could be a good idea to cosider the refusal only, keeping the double system a feature of Galadriel  . IN this way Hannar would be summoned directly near Dain, making the King the only ring-hero in game which summons an epic individual Hero.

-As for balance: i wrote it multiple times, everything that involves more about Hannar intrigues me, so i like your suggestion  . This would make Durin VII more difficult to obtain and so goes in favor of balance an uniqueness. Of course this involves some drawbacks: more work for the team in different field (coding for new abilites, new graphics, etc) and in hard times, despite i think the models i posted are ready in the hands of the founders of DVZ mod. Anyhow i'm patience, and i'm willing to wait more and obtain a very genuine implementation.
A cool idea would be to have the possibility to combine him with an horse-pack at level 5, just as you have to do with Veterans of Khazad Dum. In this way the player have to wait the return of Hannar as Durin VII, and it is also forced to build a travel camp: all of this could fit very well and it is balanced.

- Specifically for the graphics, the last double concept i conceived is the one that maybe all agree, because it contains the old Durin armor (only the face and beard are of Durin VII).

Being dkbluewizard my colleague in the work, i'm waiting also for his judgment about the ideas you proposed 

Oh god I forgot to answer you about  German translation sorry Isildur  : yes of course you can thank you very much for your help