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Umfrage

How can the Dain Dilemma be resolved?

It does not need fixing.
4 (12.9%)
Restore Dain's Abilities to 4.3 and Switch the Ring Auras around.
19 (61.3%)
 Switch their Ring Auras
3 (9.7%)
Switch "Defend the Halls" and "Vendetta"
1 (3.2%)
Switch "Defend the Halls" and "Vendetta" and their Ring Auras. (Leave "Lord of the Iron Hills" and "Baruk Khazad!" as they currently are.)
3 (9.7%)
Other (Please Specify)
1 (3.2%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 28

Autor Thema: The Dain Dilemma  (Gelesen 7201 mal)

lordoflinks

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The Dain Dilemma
« am: 10. Aug 2016, 02:40 »
In the newest version of the Edain mod, Dain’s abilities were swapped around, meaning King Dain now has “Vendetta” and Young Dain has “Defend the Halls.” I disagree immensely with this change, because while it does bring the heroes in line with the role of their respective realm, it makes no sense from a lore perspective, being worse than the siege trolls in the Hobbit in my opinion.
Vendetta does not make much sense with Older King Dain as he defended Erebor against Rhun, while Younger King Dain did quite specifically lead the dwarves in a vendetta against the Elves. One final point is that Young Dain has a mount, hence meaning he is meant to be a mobile hero, and for the ring to completely change this role feels iffy, personally I think his powers should be enhanced not completely changed. Furthermore the fortress summon power is more suited for Erebor lorewise.
My suggestions are to:
  • Reverse Dain’s abilities to 4.3
  • their ring heroes auras should be exchanged to better fit with their overall roles, as YKD should not be locked to his base as this feels like a debuff to the character rather than a buff, he is a mobile hero after all.
  • Change King Dain to summon the Barracks/Fortress as it makes more sense for Erbeor to have it considering they are the center of Dwarven culture, by doing this it also allows Erbeor access to the other realms units in War of the Ring mode
  • Give Young Dain the summon ability, without the ring it summons Erebors basic unit, and the axe thrower, and Ered Luins basic unit and their ranged unit. With the ring it summons Erebors elite unit and Ered Luins elite unit, and their ranged units fully upgraded
I think a simple switch does make both Dains more viable, as it allows the Heroes to cover up their respective fractions weaknesses, makes them more lore friendly, and makes the ring viable for both.

One final suggestion, if you do not want to change it for balance reasons can you release it as a simple 'lore' sub mod as currently it feels like Old King Dain is leading the Iron Hills and Young Dain is leading Erebor when he gets the ring.
EDIT: Removed irrelevant suggestions
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Sep 2016, 08:21 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Julio229

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #1 am: 10. Aug 2016, 17:13 »
Totally agree, Young King Dáin should have Vendetta, it fits more his young version than his old.


kingsjewel

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #2 am: 10. Aug 2016, 19:57 »
Also I agree, young Dáin seems more agressive than the wise old King Dáin.

DrHouse93

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #3 am: 10. Aug 2016, 20:24 »
Nothing more to say about this, lordoflinks definitely expressed my exact thoughts about the matter

Odysseus

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #4 am: 15. Aug 2016, 07:07 »
I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP here. Take Erebor for instance, Dain was the only hero that could provide defensive abilities to the realm, but the abilities have now been swapped with Iron Hills Dain. I can understand that the ability kits were swapped for the sake of adhering to the focus of each Dwarven Realm, one defense, one offense, one speed, but this is really quickly falling into the one-trick pony trap. There is already very little versatility in the overall unit roster of Erebor, or Iron Hills, and now those last bits have been removed. Why, is my question?

There are times when Erebor cannot attack or be aggressive, but now they technically have very little to defend themselves with. I liked this versatility presented by the faction leader, providing contrasting benefits to the realm's specific playstyle.

Furthermore, I have not seen any topic in the internal English beta forums about swapping the roles of Iron Hills Dain and Erebor Dain. Why was our opinion not asked for? It's a pretty significant change after all, and it totally came out of the blue. I gave it a try, but it left a bitter taste in my mouth in the end. I hope the change can be reverted in the future.

Apart from that, I don't have anything to add regarding the ring system, just the fact that it still needs some finetuning, but ET knows.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #5 am: 16. Aug 2016, 12:35 »
I for one too absolutely agree with the OP.

If I wasn't busy I myself would have created a Thread about this.

It is just not lore wise and logical for Old King Dain to be so "reckless" and straight forward when he is a Wise and Experienced Warrior and King,while the Young Lord Dain is better Warrior and more "reckless" being young and thursty for Revenge. Also the Skills Old Dain had are much more suitable for Erebor as Middle Kingdom with Good Defense and Offensive while his Wise King provides good Defense Abilities based on how he led then trough Erebor Seige ,while OHs with his Offensive behavior with how Dain immediately Martched with 500 of the Elite of his Army to fight at Erebor shows his Battle Ready Character in his Youth,although still good leader he is more of a Warrior. Not to mention IHs being mainly Defebsive Realm is really good supported with little DMG boost by their Leader! :-)

This is my opinion on the matter.! :-)

Greetings from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :-)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

lordoflinks

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #6 am: 20. Aug 2016, 10:17 »
Is there any official word on this topic?
And what do people think of replacing Young Dain's Barracks ability with Thorin's company as a summon?
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #7 am: 20. Aug 2016, 14:55 »
I would say that is rather unlikely that we will add Thorin's company in regal armour as summon due to the effort-benefit ratio. This would mean that we have to create 13 new models, even more skins and lots of coding.

Odysseus

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #8 am: 20. Aug 2016, 17:47 »
Hmm, what about the other topic though. There is some stern criticism towards the switching the kits of both faction leaders. Even after some 4.4.1 games, I think most of us are still of the opinion that the change was not a good one and that it is highly recommended to revert it.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Julio229

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #9 am: 20. Aug 2016, 17:54 »
To expand on my little post (I wrote almost nothing  :D), I have to say I agree with everything here. Right now, it feels like Young Dáin has magically grown old and come to live to Erebor and Old Dáin has found the secret of eternal youth and has abandoned the Mountain. Their abilities (except for the mount/carriage) are completely switched up, and one of the most astounding is the barracks one. I believe Iron Hills Dáin shouldn't have the power to construct a Barrack for all the realms, it should be Old Dáin's ability because he has a lot more power within the Dwarves.


Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #10 am: 20. Aug 2016, 19:00 »
Our intention behind the exchange of the abilities is simple:
Every dwarven sub-faction has a different basic focus and the king and main support hero shouldn't act contrary to the basic direction of the faction, but strenghten its main focus. I know that many of you think that this contradicts the portrayal of Daín in BotFA, but we cannot base every concept on the movie adaptions, especially if it doesn't fit the main conception of the sub-faction. I cannot rule out that we might change some abilities, but I'm pretty sure that we will keep the current basic focus.

-DJANGO-

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #11 am: 20. Aug 2016, 19:02 »
Zitat
I liked this versatility presented by the faction leader, providing contrasting benefits to the realm's specific playstyle.
  - Totally agree here!
Not only lore wise speaking, but also balance wise the switch was a wrong decision imo.

Especially Iron Hills needs speed abilities to compensate their weakness (for example, thats why im fine having them extra cav in form of ram riders)!
Erebor could nicely compensate their amor weakness with their main Hero. They dont need speedbuffs since they are in between ered luin & ironhills speed.
So at least switching Dains abilities back would be great. Atm their weaknesses are just too exposed.
With Ered Luin OP-Hero changes and Dain changes, Iron Hills and Erebor are now even weaker as they were before, compared to Ered Luin.
- THE EAGLES ARE COMING -

Odysseus

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #12 am: 20. Aug 2016, 21:15 »
I apologise for repeating myself, and Radagast is not responsible for such changes, so he should not be the one to take the brunt of our disapproval.

Nevertheless, as Django pointed out, in the current state, both realms have taken a relatively big hit to their flexibility and their strength to adapt to certain situations. Because of this change, the reliance on runes and towers is bigger than it should be, in my opinion, and it makes the factions more monotonous.

The majority of fans were very pleased with the previous implementation of the Old King Dain and Young King Dain. Furthermore, I cannot really remember reading many or any balance complaints on the English forums here. It was generally accepted and there were no complaints about it being broken, so I really do not understand why such a change was apparently necessary. It wasn't broken and didn't need fixing.

Currently, on the competitive level, people play Ered Luin the most, and if they don't they should, because they have by far the better heroes and more versatility than the other two dwarven realms combined. Compared to Ered Luin, the others are kind of one-trick ponies and feel a little boring/bland, in which the previous Dains provided some versatility to combat that blandness. To continue, Ered Luin can stage many plays via flanks and charges mitigating their frailty to a certain extent via pure speed, but the other factions had their leaders provide some sustenance. Especially Erebor, my main concern is Erebor, because they are an offensive faction, but they have the speed of a defensive one. If you want to be on the offensive, speed is just as crucial as attack. Iron Hills can soak up all the damage and still do decent damage on their own and therefore outlast a fight, but Erebor really hasn't anything particularly outstanding apart from the previous implementation of Old King Dain. Their damage is nothing insane, and their primary source of late-game sustain has now been removed. Dwarves are known for their tankiness, and to all degrees should have some of it in each faction that concerns Dwarves. This is just my point of view though, and I can imagine that it could be interpreted differently.

Dwarves were only OP in the previous iterations because they could get infinite heroic batallions (so glad that's gone), but the rest was fine really. I hope the Lord of Mordor hears our pleas :P
« Letzte Änderung: 20. Aug 2016, 21:18 von Odysseus »
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Walküre

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #13 am: 20. Aug 2016, 21:22 »
I know that many of you think that this contradicts the portrayal of Daín in BotFA, but we cannot base every concept on the movie adaptions, especially if it doesn't fit the main conception of the sub-faction.

It may sound a bit naïve, but my personal heart-based feeling is that Dáin (as the Lord of the Iron Hills) should go back to his past design, though gameplay-inaccurate it could be in regards to the new changes.

Contrary to the usual LOTR-based heroes and their relative factions, Dáin is a bit of an exception in the Mod: his graphical design and conceptual elements are completely fashioned on BOTFA and this fact is exactly what recreates the whole Iron Hills motive from the Hobbit trilogy (along with the overhauled units) in the actual game. The reference to the particularity of that film is of paramount importance to the entire faction's essence (undoubtedly, what people enjoy about this Dwarven realm).

Of course, it's not that Dáin's concept has been totally deprived of all of those properties overnight. In my opinion, though, sticking to the BOTFA atmosphere as much as we can is a central issue; that is, stressing firmly his primary war-lord characterisation as the old design did so well. These are just my sincere thoughts on the matter  :)

kingsjewel

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #14 am: 20. Aug 2016, 22:44 »
Is there any official word on this topic?
And what do people think of replacing Young Dain's Barracks ability with Thorin's company as a summon?
I think the problem is that Thorin and the company are available in an another dwarf faction. It wouldn't be 'too much'?