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Umfrage

How can the Dain Dilemma be resolved?

It does not need fixing.
4 (12.9%)
Restore Dain's Abilities to 4.3 and Switch the Ring Auras around.
19 (61.3%)
 Switch their Ring Auras
3 (9.7%)
Switch "Defend the Halls" and "Vendetta"
1 (3.2%)
Switch "Defend the Halls" and "Vendetta" and their Ring Auras. (Leave "Lord of the Iron Hills" and "Baruk Khazad!" as they currently are.)
3 (9.7%)
Other (Please Specify)
1 (3.2%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 28

Autor Thema: The Dain Dilemma  (Gelesen 7200 mal)

lordoflinks

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #15 am: 20. Aug 2016, 23:04 »
Is there any official word on this topic?
And what do people think of replacing Young Dain's Barracks ability with Thorin's company as a summon?
I think the problem is that Thorin and the company are available in an another dwarf faction. It wouldn't be 'too much'?
I think it is fine myself, as I think it fits Young Dain better than magically calling warriors from The Blue Mountains and Erebor. Could it be considered if they weren't in their regal armor? Of course I am fine if someone can come up with a better ability for him.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Radagast der Musikalische

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #16 am: 21. Aug 2016, 03:38 »
I apologise for repeating myself, and Radagast is not responsible for such changes, so he should not be the one to take the brunt of our disapproval.

I may not be the one who had the idea in the first place, but we discussed this ability swap in the team and decided together that it would be better. This is why it is absolutely fine that I'm the one who "takes the brunt". ;)

Back on Topic:

Summon of Thorin's company:
An implementation of Thorin's company as summon is highly unlikely, because they should be recruitable in Ered Luin only. We always try to give each faction exclusive heroes that are only available in this particular faction.

Daíns ability swap:
I've often read that it is not lore wise, but the portrayal of Daín as "badass warrior" in BotFA is just an adaption and not the lore. We know that Daín is a great warrior, but it is uncertain whether his fighting style is rather offensive or rather defensive. Furthermore, the model for the young Daín and the whole Iron Hills army is intentionally more heavily armoured than their Erebor counterpart to underline the focus on defense. Therefore, it is unlikely that we will change the basic roles.
But the abilities are not carved in stone and we would appreciate suggestions and ideas. However, they should go well with the basic roles.

Weaknesses of Erebor/Iron Hills:
As we haven't received any complaints from the German community by now, we would like to wait for more feedback. If it is the common opinion that Erebor and Iron Hills have too many weaknesses due to the ability swap, we will most likely find a solution to fix this and keep the roles at the same time.

Odysseus

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #17 am: 21. Aug 2016, 04:03 »
So, what if we switch around one of the abilities for each Dain? That way, both Dains will have both offensive and defensive abilities and we would have a compromise.

I think the most fitting candidates for abilities to be switched around between both Dains are:
1. The defensive leadership that is now on young king Dain.
2. The invulnerability near structures
3. Baruk Khazad
4. Vendetta

If two of these abilities are interchanged between the Dains (one of each Dain), I think we could solve the issue at hand. Personally, I'd like to see the defensive leadership on Erebor. The rest I am open about.

Any thoughts?
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Julio229

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #18 am: 21. Aug 2016, 04:07 »
Maybe Baruk Khazad and the defensive leadership? It would help fitting Young Dáin's fighter nature and Old Dáin's defensive nature (With the Defense of Dale and all of that)

Edit: I also believe their summoning abilities should be swapped.


lordoflinks

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #19 am: 21. Aug 2016, 05:38 »
I've removed Thorin's Company from the main post to update it.
I think Vendetta and Defend the Halls! should be switched around, and their ring auras should also. It feels criminal to restrict Young Dain on his mount to his base. The way I see it, Erebor is slower overall as they do not have rams so giving them defense would aid them.
Could this issue be cultural, as no one of the English forums has disagreed with restoring them to 4.3 status?
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

-DJANGO-

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #20 am: 21. Aug 2016, 13:29 »
Zitat
If it is the common opinion that Erebor and Iron Hills have too many weaknesses due to the ability swap, we will most likely find a solution to fix this and keep the roles at the same time.
- I appreciate that.

I don't think it is impossible to balance Erebor and Iron Hills keeping the Dain's roles as they are now. But imo it is the way more difficult road to go! Strengthen Iron Hills tankiness and Erebors attack strength just more and more can end on a very thin line between being still useless or overpowered.
E.g.: Iron Hills gets more tankiness to compensate their slow speed; now they can still be (just too slow) not enough tank resulting in being outranged or being torn apart whilst retreating - or they are that armor buffed that they just can't be killed no more.
Same goes for Erebor; i compare them in the following to Lorien (the Elvish attack faction): while Lorien has high attack, low amor and speed to retreat or surprise the enemy, Erebor would have great attack buffs but low amor and "normal" slow dwarven speed. I think this combination is not that great and difficult to balance because they can turn out so strong that nobody fights them in melee but also outranges them to the ground.
All in all i see many difficulties in finding a balaced line here, while strengthen their basic roles. Atm these efforts made Iron Hills and Erebor lose a great amount of their flexibility. In my opinion it would be way more easier to give Iron Hills exclusive and "difficult/late to get" Speed abilities, like late Hero abilities, Ram Riders...
; while Erebor in the same way a few Amor abilities that would fit to the standard dwraven tankiness. I would NOT give them speed, that would make them exactly like Lorien! Another idea which is being discussed in the German Section and could be taken into consideration, is to distinguish the Upgrades (Blades/Amor..) of each Edain faction a bit more (logically only when all factions are released). That could mean for Erebor getting a bit more amor through the Amor-Upgrade of the Dwarfs.

But of course i'm open to be surprised by the Edain Team with a balanced solution that strengthens Erebors & Iron Hills basic role.  ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 21. Aug 2016, 13:34 von -DJANGO- »
- THE EAGLES ARE COMING -

kingsjewel

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #21 am: 21. Aug 2016, 16:39 »

Is there any official word on this topic?
And what do people think of replacing Young Dain's Barracks ability with Thorin's company as a summon?
I think the problem is that Thorin and the company are available in an another dwarf faction. It wouldn't be 'too much'?
I think it is fine myself, as I think it fits Young Dain better than magically calling warriors from The Blue Mountains and Erebor. Could it be considered if they weren't in their regal armor? Of course I am fine if someone can come up with a better ability for him.
]

Unfortunately I really don't know a strong ability like Thorin's. Thorin was greedy and he wanted the Arkenstone, these are the base of his abilities. The young Dáin in the movie was a warrior and a leader of an army, just that is what we know.

Maybe can he summon his war chariot or the siege weapons of the extended version?
« Letzte Änderung: 21. Aug 2016, 16:42 von kingsjewel »

lordoflinks

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #22 am: 25. Aug 2016, 10:15 »
I have added a poll to the topic in order to gain statistical results for the team and get a batter appreciation of which solution people are in favour of.
Please vote.
EDIT: I know this is a lot to ask, but if anyone speaks German at all, do you think you could throw this idea up in their section of the forum. I think it is best if we get both sides perspective on this issue.
In addition the difference between the 2nd and 3rd option of the poll is that the 3rd proposes to leave "Lord of the Iron Hills" and "Baruk Khazad!" as they currently are.
« Letzte Änderung: 25. Aug 2016, 11:04 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

lordoflinks

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #23 am: 31. Aug 2016, 07:24 »
I seem to have made a grave error.
When I writing my suggestion I had presumed both versions of Dain were able to summon the barracks, which is not so, only Young Dain is. Another error is that while the barracks is enhanced into the fortress, the summon King Dain gets is not enhanced by the ring at all. Hence I have updated my OP post to reflect this. Also can the person who voted other specify what 'other' is for them.
I also would like the team to know in light of the above information I support reverting the abilities  completely, and have changed the poll so I am counted in said category as my initial vote has been tainted by a misunderstanding on my part and is invalid and does not reflect my true opinion. 
Also as the Team shows little interests in this I have trying to change it in my personal copy of the mod, and have been running into problems, if anyone could help see here:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33837.0.html 
« Letzte Änderung: 31. Aug 2016, 07:34 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Julio229

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #24 am: 1. Sep 2016, 16:23 »
Wanted to add this to the Dáin discussion, I planned to put it on General suggestions but it is all about Dáin, so I'll put it here:

I wanted to say something about Ring Heroes. Currently, I feel most of them are awesome, and I can understand the Witch King not having new abilities because of his debuffs to the enemy, but I don't feel the same about Dwarven Heroes. Currently, when I play Iron Hills, I try to avoid taking the ring at all costs, because even if it is a defensive faction, he feels like he's only useful for Fortress defense because of his 50% losses if he's not near an enemy building. His other abilities are awesome, and being able to train units from the Hall Of Warriors instantly is great, but I don't know, maybe Dáin should have fewer debuffs. Ring Heros are, if my beliefs are correct, meant to turn the tide in a game and give advantages, it is strange when you can't use this Hero except when he stays at the Fortress, making him as static as the Scholars in 3.8.1 Imladris and Erestor if I recall correctly, that were always in the Fortress.

Just my opinion, though. I believe normal Dáin's abilities should be reversed to 4.3, and I wanted to add this about his Ring Hero form. Anyways, The Edain Team always does a great job, and I love that!

EDIT: To add something more, I don't feel Erebor Ring Dáin is like Iron Hills, his ability to double allied units damage it's great, and he is going to be with the army anyway in his current role, so he's not as hampered (I believe that's the word, correct me if I'm wrong) as Iron Hills Dáin.
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Sep 2016, 16:28 von Julio229 »


lordoflinks

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #25 am: 5. Sep 2016, 08:19 »
A few days ago I saw a comment thread on Mod DB, where people were voicing their opinions that the current ring aura of Iron Hills Dain was pushing them to avoid the ring. In my opinion if they are avoiding a item that should be good for them it is bad design.
I think a simple switch does make both Dains more viable, as it allows the Heroes to cover up their respective fractions weaknesses, makes them more lore friendly, and makes the ring viable for both.
I think at this point the vast majority who care about the Dwarfs would prefer a switch back to 4.3, as seen by the poll.
DieWalküre- Is the OP Post clear enough, or should I edit it a bit? I'm unsure...
 
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Dain@

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Re: The Dain Dilemma
« Antwort #26 am: 16. Dez 2016, 11:23 »
Hi people !

I fully share your opinion and misunderstanding that Dine in Edain modes 4.4. clearly she became weaker and incomprehensible in terms of the game. I will not repeat all that has been said before you just add that I think that should get accustomed Dine certain changes to ensure that it corresponds to the book and its role in the faction. I have suggested a couple of ideas (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34206.0.html), I hope they will like the developers.