Monster Units in Edain (4.4)

[Odysseus]

Good night all,

It's been quite some time since I tried making an elaborate post, so I thought I'd try my hand at it again. As the topic title implies, I would like to share my thoughts on the performance of several monster units in the mod, such as trolls, battlewagons (technically siege engines, I know), Beornings, Ents and Werewolves etc.

As we all know, Edain mod employs a classification-pricing system, in which the class of a particular unit determines the purchasing price of said unit. For instance, all elite swordsmen, no matter how different they may be from one another, all cost 500 resources to purchase. From my perspective the system is flawed in the long run, and only looks perfect on paper. The reason as to why that is because units on their own already perform quite differently from one another, but also because of the synergistic effects they grant to the faction when supported by other units from the faction roster, which again differs greatly per unit. The performance and role of a troll is different to let's say that of a Battlewagon, even though they do share some similarities. Same applies to for instance Imladris swordsmen versus Angmar swordsmen and their performances. Anyway, I can imagine that tweaking all these prices is a huge amount of work, so I see no point on preaching it now, as ET has other priorities, and will therefore only mention it here, so that you, the reader, can keep this in mind from which perspective I have typed this elaborate post.

Of all the unit classes, there is one class of units that I simply cannot wrap my head around at the moment, and those are monster units. In the latest update (4.4), monster units also got classes assigned to them, with regular monsters costing 500 and elite monsters costing 1000. Monster units are besides heroes, the units that probably have the most impact in games, because they usually have the ability to perform multiple roles, such as trolls being good siege as well as perform quite well against low-level heroes, harassing infantry and sucking up damage at higher levels. As it stands, however, some of these units I find to be in somewhat questionable situations regarding their pricing reflecting their performance. Some exceptions such as Beornings and Barrow-wights will also be mentioned shortly, even though their prices were not changed.

Anyway, for those who actually like to read my essays:

1. I'd like to start with Trolls. Trolls are very powerful units, especially for their current price. 500 is quite cheap, and that is without the price reduction, which is pretty much mandatory if you go for numerous Trolls, right? Well, with a full discount, trolls actually cost 350 resources a piece, which is almost the price of archers and pikemen without discounts. Since Trolls received not only a reduction in cost, but also a health increase, I think a troll rush is a bit too strong at the moment. I feel like one of the two changes should be reverted, either the price decrease or the health buff, but personally, I want my trolls to be a heavy, but strong and tanky investment, so I'd only revert the cost decrease for now. To continue, the default troll can be spammed, and the armour upgrades can be reduced with Arsenals too (right?), so you can have a beast of a unit once it levels up. A level 5 troll with a sword can kill heroes in 2-3-4 swings depending on level, which is nuts. My problem is that it is a bit too easy to spam default trolls now, while I have the feeling that armour upgrade (only) for a troll is underperforming for its cost( I might be wrong here, I'd like some clarification if possible) and that their survivability is really good in the early to midgame, but after that, they die like flies if they don't manage to get a few levels, yet ultimately, when they do, they become completely bonkers. Sauron's influence helps greatly in this, so I suppose this argument is no completely fool proof, but still, I think trolls without upgrades should, in respect to their role, do slightly less damage to infantry and heroes, serve a more disruptive role while in return being slightly tankier and in general while levelling, mostly serve as damage sponges and siege, but trolls can do it all once you fully invest your resources into them. I am not sure how it stands at the moment, and this uncertainty is exactly why I'd like to touch upon it and ask for opinions.

2.Next up, Battlewagons are in a rather strange spot at the moment, I think. I have several problems with this unit. It is slightly too tanky still, since mine survived crashing into a forged blades Carn-Dûm Pikemen last game, with only a sliver of health. Nevertheless, this should say more than enough. Nobody on wheels or mounts should really survive that, except heroes I suppose. The damage it does now is good, it does high damage against infantry as single targets, which is fitting with a headbutting ram, I suppose. The performance of this unit is however very inconsistent. I had a level 1 Royal Guard unit (which by default cost a ton more now) pitted against a level 1 Battlewagon with an Iron Hills Crossbow upgrade, and the battlewagon actually won, and by a decent margin too. I did not record the replay, but I think the Battlewagon's armour is still a bit too high at the moment. The armour or the health, one of the two. I'd like to see heroic cavalry units (which cost almost thrice as much as the Battlewagon) at least win against the damn thing at low levels, even when it has upgrades. My second problem with the wagon is that it levels up much, and much too quickly. You run over one batallion of archers and the thing immediately gets level 3 or 4. This really needs to be looked at. Maybe there is some way to have it gain shared experience like heroes, so that the experience gain can be tweaked, because the difference between a level 1 Battlewagon and a level 3-4 Battlewagon is quite big and should certainly not be underestimated. For once, I do not necessarily have a problem with the price of the unit. It's not really that much of a damage dealing unit, and gives great support via trampling, oil casks and the upgrades it can obtain, which are now mostly bound to upgrades in the Dwarven structures (A surprising but I suppose fitting change/nerf).

3.Ents are also in a rather strange spot, to be frank. They are able to completely destroy any army that does not possess fire in some form when supported. They can poop on pretty much any hero or any heroic unit on their own too. I think, for what these units offer, they should be more expensive (1200ish?). Generally, I think in the future, ET should reassess their policy on pricing their monster units. In contrast to vanilla BFME II, where things die twice as fast, ET actually decreased the price of the ents to 900 first and then increased it again to a 1000. On top of that, most siege does very little against ents, even those with fire ammunitions, which is rather strange. In BFME II, Ents cost 1400 a piece and they are also much more vulnerable to siege next to sources of fire, but they poop on everything else. I think ents deliver way too much bang for their buck, especially with how Lothlorien's resource system works, which should allow for getting ents, and Quickbeam greatly accelerating their recruitment speed. You have to understand that most factions need to pay for their sources of fire, and then, only one unit with fire does not melt an ent. You need several, which already together cost more than a single ent. Rarely do I know of situations or games where the counter to a unit is actually more expensive than the unit it is supposed to counter. Just think about it for a second .

4.So about the Mumaki....shhhhhh! {Don't tell people about the Mumakill you clown, they will figure out that the thing is busted as heck and that it can kill everything that breathes with one hit if it levels a bit, which is super easy, because it gets level 4-5 in one swing or so. Sometimes even more levels.} *Ahem* The Mumakill is perfectly fine. Next!

5. Werewolves are kind of strange still. I like the fact that they have speed as their primary advantage over other units but I think the unit should revolve a bit more around the life steal concept via abilities and make the thing squishier to other sources of damage. Hmm, I wanted to say something else that was super interesting about them, but it seems I forgot . Next!

6. The monsters that did not have their prices changed like wights and Beornings, I'd also like to comment upon. I think barrow wights are in a better spot right now, because they can no longer get 100% lifesteal from their attacks (right?) due to the Barrow Crypt maxing at level 3 instead of level 5, so I think ET did a good job balancing out the barrow-wights in this fashion. Now about Beornings, I feel the unit has some issues still. My problem is that the human Beorning form heavily outshines the bear form in most ways. On top of that, I also noticed this strange behaviour that, no matter what kind of attack order I give them, either A-move or a simple right-click on an enemy batallion, they always seem to try charging into the center of the batallion before using their default attack to do AoE damage when in bear form. Could this be looked at? Having to press S all the time for each individual Beorning to prevent it from dying to Mordor pikemen is a little tedious. Furthermore, just like the Battlewagon, Beornings obtain way too much exp from killing batallions. You take down one or one and a half batallion of regular troops and the Beorning is instantly level 5. I really think this should be looked at. Also, as a final suggestion, I think the damage of the Beorning  in human form should be tweaked that it no longer instantly kills elite units like Tower Guards. With each swing, a Beorning takes down a Tower Guard, even while in Shield Wall I think. Could this be looked at, as to make it at least two hits? The unit will still be relevant because it does so much damage, and getting multiple Beornings will make heroes cry in a corner. Anyway, I rarely see bear form Beornings, because they are much squishier because of their weird unit behaviour and the fact that they don't do much damage, unlike the human form, which completely ignores armour! Crazy, I tell you :O!

7. So, when you look at the topic title again, you wonder, why hasn't he talked about Eagles and Fellbeasts yet? It would be the perfect time to bring them up again, right? Well, I simply won't. Why, you ask? Well to piss off Elendils Cousin of course! Just kidding, I'd wait for the future tweaks to the spellbooks before making any comments myself. That's why . You can make comments yourselves though if you made it this far.

Wow, you did it! You read through all of it! You totally deserve a cookie or a medal. Hit me up!

For those who'd enjoy a TL;DR:
Apart from price inconsistencies for the various units and their according performance in their own faction, which I can overlook, I'd like to say that Monster units bother me the most.
1. Trolls are too cheap with their discount and can be spammed which contradicts their selective and tanky role. I look at trolls as pseudo-hero investments for Mordor.
2. Battlewagons are still a bit too tanky, and can survive a forged blades trample at full health if the pike unit is not levelled (talking Carn-Dûm Pikemen here, reflection damage says hi!) It also earns way too much exp from trampling a single unit.
3. Ents give way too much for their cost at a 1000, even in vanilla BFME II, where stuff dies much faster, an ent costs 1400, and they are also more vulnerable to siege, unlike in Edain. I think their cost should be increased. 1200 as a test first.
4. Barrow-wights are in a pretty neat spot I think, since they can no longer get 100% lifesteal if I am not mistaken.
5. Beorning human form is still a bit too strong for its cost, and the bear form feels underwhelming because of it. Prevent a Beorning from one shotting elite units (at least two hits would be good), and remove the ability to gain instant level 5 by taking down one and a half batallion of any unit. The rate of exp needs to be looked at for both the Battlewagon and the Beornings, because it is way too high at the moment.
6. Mumakills are overpowered as heck, but hey, you only see one every 30 minutes and it costs 7 PP in tier 3, so I guess it's okay. I love that thing.
7. I didn't touch upon the Eagles or the Fellbeasts, and I explained why in the second to last paragraph of the Spoilers section. Check it out, if you can .

That was a decent typing effort. I hope some of you will read it and share your thoughts, it would satisfy me greatly and not make me feel totally useless for typing a wall of text.

Yours truly,

Odysseus.

[Fredius]

I'm glad you brought this up Odysseus. First of all I won't go through all your points, because for some factions I rarely build monster units (like Ents or Werewolves), and therefore don't have much experience with them. Also I always play against AI, and never play on MP, so my views are only based on these experiences. In any case let me start:

1. Trolls: Like I said in the beta forums I fully agree with you on the case of trolls. I'm glad that the team made them stronger in the last patch, because trolls are supposed to be strong and buffy. However since they are so strong they should also come with a high price, so that they won't be spammed so easily. I also agree with you that the armor upgrade is not worth it's price; in my experience it doesn't make the trolls that much stronger as it should be, so I would also like to see that upgrade become a bit stronger. But I think we're on the right track with these fella's!

2. Battlewagons: You know, Odysseus, last year there was a proposal in the Dwarven forums about the battlewagons, and that it should be changed to the design of the Hobbit movies. Along with that suggestion came the complaint that battlewagons were actually too weak. The problem with the battlewagon is that they will automatically attack and trample an enemy unit, unless it's put on defensive stance ofcourse. However micromanaging the battlewagons and your other armies at the same time is really a pain in the ass, and in my battles (and other users as well) the wagons got destroyed very easily. That's why I think they should remain as tanky as they are now, so that they won't die off so quickly. Like with trolls I think it would be better to make them more expensive, so that they also won't be spammed so easily. Also I fully agree with you that they should remain weak against pikes.

3. Beornings: Here I also fully agree with you. Whenever I build Beornings, I never use the ability to change them into a bear, because they really kick ass in their human forms. I think having the bear form deliver a bit more damage should do the trick, especially against buildings, since destroying buildings is the reason why I build Beornings (Ents are too slow). They are more effective against buildings in human form, which is the deciding factor to me to let them remain in human form. And ofcourse there is this problem you described:

On top of that, I also noticed this strange behaviour that, no matter what kind of attack order I give them, either A-move or a simple right-click on an enemy batallion, they always seem to try charging into the center of the batallion before using their default attack to do AoE damage when in bear form.

This does not apply solely to Beornings, but to trolls and battlewagons as well. This is exactly the reason why these units die so quickly, because they rather trample the enemy unit, which delivers a lot of damage to them.

[Shadowlord]

I am glad someone wants the monster units to be changed. To be honest though I came mostly to give my thoughts on the troll units.

Many Edain player's have learned that Troll units are not viable at all, because they serve no  synergistic function within Mordor beyond having like one or two on the battlefield for harassment but even that is rare.

Here's how I sum up their potential

1. Siege (Well battering Rams are cheaper and a having a siege works is far more rewarding than a troll cage, especially with catapaults.)

2. Trample (Well spamming orcs usually is more rewarding, besides Mordor players can assemble larger armies anyway so trample isn't that viable, if anything the the Nazgul and Morgul riders are more than enough for trampling.

3. Tanky (True except when you factor that they can die within seconds if they fight pikeman and or archers) Seriously they die way too quickly when they are fighting a unit that counters them.

Overall most competitive Mordor players discourage using trolls at all, the cage is too expensive and takes up a slot that could be used for something useful. If anything I would argue that Trolls would have to be somewhat overpowered for Mordor players to even consider using them.

If anything though, I do like Fredius idea about Trolls being more tanky, less damage output

Also upgrades make them SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful, like double health. Maybe even make Trolls unable to do that much damage to heroes and in terms of siege until they get upgrades, but they gain a lot of bonus damage for those categories while also being weaker in their other aspects depending on the upgrade.

So in a nutshell, have trolls be more tanky and more resistant to damage, even against non-elite pikeman (since getting trolls in the first place is a huge investment) also good trample will also help. However they deal very minimal damage towards buildings and heroes. But have the upgrades boost their health immensely and give the player the option to specialize in an upgrade that increases the trolls damage capabilities more. Make them more expensive as well to compensate it.

Those are just my thoughts, feel free to disagree. Enjoyed reading your ideas.

[Odysseus]

I appreciate your thoughts guys! I'd like to see some more reactions, from both the community and from the team. Unfortunately, it seems my post don't get as much attention as I would like them to get :/.

I agree mostly with what you guys said. Also, Fredius, you should totally build some Ents, in numbers, it's GG no RE .

Although, my biggest point of concern beside the Flying Units, is currently the default troll. I hope that comes across clearly for future readers.

[DrHouse93]

I want to give my opinion about this, too, since I also care about monster units^^

1. I can't speak about regular trolls price right now, since I played just one match with 4.4 Mordor, but I really like their health and armor increase. What I wanted to say about trolls is the "lameness" of armored trolls. I also think that having armored trolls is not worthy at all, because as soon as you start armoring trolls, your opponent has already enough ways to shut them down before they can do any damage (this is furthermore enhanced by the fact that, as you pointed out, they're used to "dive" inside the center of the batallion before attacking). I'd like to see armored trolls terrific and powerful almost as Attack trolls were in BFME 2: in there, an Attack troll could kill almost an entire infantry batallion with just one club swing, and they were incredibly hard to take down. To balance this, an armored troll could:

- Insta-kill almost an entire batallion of weak and ordinary infantry without Heavy Armor (like Peasants, Hillmen, Orcs and Border Guards) with just one club swing (just like it was in BFME 2), while heavy units (like Men of Carn-Dum/Gondor/Arnor, Noldors, Uruks and Galadhrim/Mirkwood troops) would be severely injured, but not insta-killed.
- Deal the same damage that unupgraded catapults deal to buildings with their hammer
- Have an additional health and armor increase
- Insta-destroy a siege engine with both the club or the hammer (this is to balance the fact that Mordor doesn't have real cavalry, apart from Morgul Riders, which are limited to 3, and Haradrim Lancers, which, like Mumakil, you see them on the battlefield very rarely)
(I never use trolls with sword, so I can't help on that)

Furthermore, in order to avoid Troll-spam or OPness, they can be limited to 10

2. I'm fine with Battlewagons

3. I like the way Ents are dealt right now, but I'd prefer to see them more vulnerable to fire (maybe not burning after two shots, but not even after 40) and to siege (after all, they're trees. A rock or a projectile shot from a Catapult or a Ballista should deal more damage)

4. I'm fine with Barrow-wights. I can't express an opinion about Beornings, since I rarely use them

5. As a last point, I think that flying units should deal the same damage as my troll concept expressed above, but deal minimal damage to buildings (which are built in such a way to stand as long as possible, while siege engines are built quickly and meant to be brought on the battlefield, so they should be quite movable and unable to endure an hit from a giant flying unit)

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I'll add some of my thoughts on the topic, seems interesting

Let's start off with battlewagons, since Fredius mentioned that a lot of people considered them too weak before their changes. Contrary to the popular opinion at the time, I liked battle wagons a lot back then (and still prefer the old version). It died incredibly fast to pikes but was very resistant against archers and had problems against swordsmen, despite of its much greater manoeuvrability. That doesn't sound too great at first, but with good usage of their barrel its effectiveness increased a lot - you now had no problems killing swords because trample + barrel killed them and leveled the wagon. Leveling was/is very important to those guys, because the health increase was pretty substantial. Also their upgrades weren't hidden behind high tech costs. All this meant you had a very fragile unit with fantastic manoeuvrability, great aoe damage (trample + barrel) and great but decently cheap support options in the form of a leadership and permanent healing. It required more micro than your average unit, but it could also give you much more.
Nowadays the battlewagon gets slowed down incredibly quickly while being much more resistant to pikes and much more vulnerable to archers. It is now a unit that survives driving head on into pikes, but can get chased down by swords quite easily. It gets shot down by archers far more often while you need to pay a lot of money to even unlock their upgrades. It's manoeuvrability is now mostly gone, because once you decide to charge into combat, you're pretty much stuck.
You could say that the old version had a higher skill ceiling than the new one, quite bad when not used carefully, but great in the hands of an experienced player. I love those kind of units personally, they allow you to get better, they give you a challenge, they punish your mistakes. But hey, maybe that's just me^^


Now on to trolls, that new thing that makes Mordor op now
Now Shadowlord, I don't know which competitive players you are talking about, but whoever ignores trolls in the current version of Edain doesn't know what he/she is talking about^^. Without upgrades their strength is pretty good imho, the problem is their price. 500 is too cheap for something that has this much health, is faster than their counters, destroys buildings and is a soft counter to cavalry. Their synergy with orcs as a meat shield is great. And you can even reduce the cost to 350 if you have mapcontrol, which is exactly what trolls + orcs give you in the eg. The price really needs to go up to at least 600, preferably more. Otherwise their health buff needs to be partially reverted.

Armored trolls with weapons are a bit more complicated, since they already profit from the troll itself being so cheap. So increasing those costs might help balance them out, although reducing the bonus hp that the armor gives still seems reasonable to me. At level one, armored trolls have 8750 hp (5000 without armor) and they just go nuts when leveling, up to 11900 HP at lvl 5. As long as you're not running them into pikes all the time, they are incredibly strong. With their baseball bat thingy their aoe is huge.


I'm not sure what the fuzz with the Ents is all about, they still take ages to take down certain buildings, are slow as hell and vulnerable to upgraded archers and pikes. I'll admit though that I never use them for combat purposes, only to finish a match.

[Odysseus]

The fudge is mostly Ents going into a rage by either seeing Lumber Mills or seeing other Ents die, and gaining like quadruple speed, chase and obliterate everything. It's a pretty scary sight to behold haha.

Good points though Elendil. I'd like to say that I only dislike instakill mechanics, they are very anti-fun, and do not allow room for even one mistake, unless there is a very large trade-off. I do like a chance to escape, no matter how small it is. As it stands, I don't mind the Battlewagon being a bit more tanky, but currently, the thing feels heathier than a troll, which should obviously not be the case. I find it really strange that a Battlewagon can deal with Royal Guard 1 on 1. Their armour is too high at the moment, I am sure of it. Default Trolls can be taken down easily by Royal Guard, but not Battlewagons? It should really be verified.

Quite often, people forget that early on, Trolls poop on cavalry, becoming worse as cavalry receive upgrades and the trolls do not upgrade (logical of course). Trolls are so extremely cost-efficient right now, it's over the top. The problem primarily is trolls in the early game, because they can now be rushed early more easily. I don't have any real trouble with Trolls as the game progresses. Also, people, I highly advise you try Trolls with swords against heroes, they do so much damage against them, and can even knock them back with the ability. Try it and see for yourself.

[Hamanathnath]

Very interesting topic.  I'm glad this has been brought up.  Allow me to share my thoughts.

Trolls-  As Elendil stated, Trolls are mandatory when playing as Mordor nowadays.  They are insanely versatile, and pretty much every other faction doesn't have any reliable counter to Mordor rushing Trolls.  And with their upgrades, they become so incredibly useful.  Increasing their price back up to 600 would definitely help fix this problem this problem.  Though, honestly, I've always thought that Trolls should cost more then that, which is something I brought up last year when Trolls were considered underpowered.  Trolls, especially in the movies, were incredibly tough monsters, and I don't think their price currently reflects that.

Battlewagons-  I actually mostly like how Battlewagons are now.  The Tanky, yet slow nature of the Battlewagons not only fits in with the Dwarves in general,  but also make them theoritically more of a support unit then a main line cavalry..... But unfortunately, I think their upgrades could use some looking at.  While the Well and Banner are both very good upgrades, the Archer upgrade is never really worth going for. 

Also, just because it was brought up, I don't think Battlewagons killing Royla Guard is a sign that Battlewagons at too strong.  Right now, I still think Heroic Cavalry is too weak.

Barrow-Wights and Beornings-  Both of these units turned from being OP on their respective factions to being rarely seen on their factions.  Starting with Wights, while I agree that their previous form was a bit too much, they have been nerfed into the ground to the point where there really isn't a point in buying them every as Angmar.  For Beornings, they have been constantly nerfed, and due to their little effectiveness in both Early and Late game, they are also never bought.  For both these units, I strongly suggest adding a new ability that they can get as they level up, especially for the Beorning.  But I also think both of the Buildings these units come from need price decreases.  I wouldn't mind seeing both the Wight Lair and the Beorning hut costing 400.

And those are my major points.  Some smaller ones though. 

-Ents should take more damage from fire, and should run slower in their Frenzy mode, but other then that I'm fine with them. 

-Flying units are always tricky to balance, but increasing their damage against siege would be great for them.

-Werewolves seem pretty underwhelming now, but I'll have to do more testing before I finalize my opinion on them.