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The White Council: Discussion and Feedback

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Walküre:
In accordance to Necro, we are soon to deal with possible integrations from the lore of the Unfinished Tales, via examining here some possibilities, in order to provide the context with many more elements to explore. As we have hitherto agreed, Saruman will remain unaware of Narya being wielded by Gandalf.

Of course, expedients such as summaries or loose endings are well contemplated. The other player will always be able to make usage of the situation and widen the game at will. On the matter, I think we should debate the prospect of the threat being one of the Nazgûl a bit more thoroughly. The divergent views of the guests will continuously clash with Saruman's refusal to take immediate action. At some point, in the midst of the heated exchange, things are inevitably to end abruptly, with Saruman overruling (with legitimacy) the other members of the council. Obviously, the duration of the very debate has no boundaries at all; we can freely prolong it as our will commands.

The_Necromancer0:
My research for valid arguments lead me deeper than ever within the Middle Earth lore and into the Unfinished Tales. Once I got there, a couple paragraphs and sections caught my eyes and the seemed as though they could be interesting additions to the RPG. I looked through most of the text but only ended up finding one section that I found could be used directly in the RPG. Although there was quite a lot on Galadriel (and Celeborn), the Quest for Erebor, the Hunt for the One Ring and Disaster of the Gladden Fields (death of Isildur).
( Link to PDF )

Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire

--- Zitat ---Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met, except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings' leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him, and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and smoke, while others are in earnest speech."
But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. Yon might find that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies."
Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."
Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.
--- Ende Zitat ---

This talks more of the dissent between Saruman and Gandalf where we can see Saruman mock Gandalf for his us of pipe weed and Gandalf let off a couple ambiguous rings of smoke. I must admit, I wasn't sure how canon these were since this Gandalf was not the one I grew up knowing but nonetheless I'm sure this part could be used in the Gandalf or Saruman POV.


--- Zitat ---Another set of papers from the same period consists of a large number of unfinished accounts of
Saruman's earlier dealings with the Shire, especially as they concerned the "Halflings' leaf," a matter that
is touched on in connection with the "squint-eyed southerner" (see pp. 362-3). The following text is one
version among many, but though briefer than some is the most finished.
Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being
concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater
strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and
desired neither fear nor reverence. Saruman did not revere him, but he grew to fear him, being ever
uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind, troubled more by his silences than by his
words. So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise, and was
ever ready to gainsay him or to make little of his counsels; while secretly he noted and pondered all that
he said, setting a watch, so far as he was able, upon all his movements.
It was in this way that Saruman came to give thought to the Halflings and the Shire, which otherwise he
would have deemed beneath his notice. He had at first no thought that the interest of his rival in this
people had any connexion with the great concerns of the Council, least of all with the Rings of Power, For
indeed in the beginning it had no such connexion, and was due only to Gandalf's love for the Little People,
unless his heart had some deep premonition beyond his waking thought. For many years he visited the
Shire openly, and would speak of its people to any who would listen; and Saruman would smile, as at the
idle tales of an old land-rover, but he took heed nonetheless.
Seeing then that Gandalf thought the Shire worth visiting, Saruman himself visited it, but disguised and in
the utmost secrecy, until he had explored and noted all its ways and lands, and thought then he had learned
all that there was to know of it. And even when it seemed to him no longer wise nor profitable to go
thither, he still had spies and servants that went in or kept an eye upon its borders. For he was still
suspicious. He was himself so far fallen that he believed all others of the Council had each their deep and
far-reaching policies for their own enhancement, to which all that they did must in some way refer. So
when long after he learned something of the finding of Gollum's Ring by the Halfling, he could believe
only that Gandalf .had known of this all the time; and this was his greatest grievance, since all that
concerned the Rings he deemed his especial province. That Gandalf's mistrust of him was merited and
just in no way lessened his anger.
Yet in truth Saruman's spying and great secrecy had not in the beginning any evil purpose, but was no more
than a folly born of pride. Small matters, unworthy it would seem to be reported, may yet prove of great
moment ere the end. Now truth to tell, observing Gandalf's love of the herb that he called "pipe-weed"
(for which, he said, if for nothing else, the Little People should be honoured), Saruman had affected to
scoff at it, but in private he made trial of it, and soon began to use it; and for tins reason the Shire
remained important to him. Yet he dreaded lest this should be discovered, and his own mockery turned
against him, so that he would be laughed at for imitating Gandalf, and scorned for doing so by stealth.
This then was the reason for his great secrecy in all his dealings with the Shire even from the first before
any shadow of doubt had fallen upon it, and it was little guarded, free for those who wished to enter. For
this reason also Saruman ceased to go thither in person; for it came to his knowledge that he had not been
all unobserved by the keen-eyed Halflings, and some, seeing the figure as it were of an old man clad in
grey or russet stealing through the woods or passing through the dusk, had mistaken him for Gandalf.
After that Saruman went no more to the Shire, fearing that such tales might spread and come maybe to the
ears of Gandalf. But Gandalf knew of these visits, and guessed their object, and he laughed, thinking this
the most harmless of Saruman's secrets; but he said nothing to others, for it was never his wish that any
one should be put to shame. Nonetheless he was not ill-pleased when the visits of Saruman ceased,
doubting him already, though he could not himself yet foresee that a time would come when Saruman's
knowledge of the Shire would prove perilous and of the greatest service to the Enemy, bringing victory to
within a nail's breadth of his grasp.
In another version there is a description of the occasion when Saruman openly scoffed at Gandalf's use of
the "pipe-weed:"
Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met,
except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings'
leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards
remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking
prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him,
and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and
the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When
weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and
smoke, while others are in earnest speech." 1
But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. Yon might find
that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error
without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and
worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies." 1
Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then
coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious
explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have
nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for
wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."
Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe
and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if
to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman
stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.
This story appears in half a dozen different manuscripts, and in one of them it is said that Saruman was
suspicious,
doubting whether he read rightly the purport of Gandalf's gesture with the rings of smoke (above all
whether it showed any connexion between the Halflings and the great matter of the Rings of Power,
unlikely though that might seem); and doubting that one so great could concern himself with such a people
as the Halflings for their own sake merely.
In another (struck through) Gandalf's purpose is made explicit:
It was a strange chance, that being angered by his insolence Gandalf chose this way of showing to
Saruman his suspicion that desire to possess them had begun to enter into his policies and his study of the
lore of the Rings; and of warning him that they would elude him. For it cannot be doubted that Gandalf had
as yet no thought that the Halflings (and still less their smoking) had any connection with the Rings. 23 If
he had had any such thought, then certainly he would not have done then what he did. Yet later when the
Halflings did indeed become involved in this greatest matter, Saruman could believe only that Gandalf
had known or foreknown this, and had concealed the knowledge from him and from the Council - for just
such a purpose as Saruman would conceive: to gain possession and to forestall him.
In the Tale of Years the entry for 2851 refers to the meeting to the White Council in that year, when
Gandalf urged an attack on Dol Guldur but was overruled by Saruman; and a footnote to the entry reads:
"It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and
hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time." The foregoing story
shows that Gandalf himself suspected Saruman of this at the time of the Council of 2851; though my father
afterwards commented that it appears from Gandalf's story to the Council of Elrond of his meeting with
Radagast that he did not seriously suspect Saruman of treachery (or of desiring the Ring for himself) until
he was imprisoned in Orthanc.
NOTES
1 According to the entry in the Tale of Years for 2951 Sauron sent three, not two, of the Nazgûl to
reoccupy Dol Guldur. The two statements can be reconciled on the assumption that one of the Ringwraiths
of Dol Guldur returned afterwards to Minas Morgul but I think it more likely that the formulation of the
present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled; and it may be noted that in a rejected
version of the present passage there was only one Nazgûl in Dol Guldur (not named as Khamûl, but
referred to as "the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)"), while one remained with Sauron as his chief
messenger.- From notes counting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it
was Khamûl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the
road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry (see p.360). The Rider who
accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited
Farmer Maggot, was "his companion from Dol Guldur." Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most
ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the
one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.
2 He had indeed in his terror of the Nazgûl dared to hide in Moria. [Author's note.]
3 At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before
them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn. [Author's
note.]
4 Gandalf, as he recounted to the Council of Elrond, questioned Gollum while he was imprisoned by the
Elves of Thranduil.
5 Gandalf told the Council of Elrond that after he left Minas Tirith "messages came to me out of Lórien
that Aragorn had passed that way, and that he had found the creature called Gollum." I
6 Gandalf arrived two days later, and left on the 29
th of March early in the morning. After the Carrock he
had a horse, but he had the High Pass over the Mountains to cross. He got a fresh horse at Rivendell, and
making the greatest speed he could he reached Hobbiton late on the 12
th of April, after a journey of nearly
eight hundred miles. [Author's note.]
7 Both here and in the Tale of Years the assault on Osgiliath is dated the 20
th of June.
8 This statement no doubt relates to Boromir's account of the battle at Osgiliath which he gave to the
Council of Elrond: "A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like
a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon."
9 In a letter written in 1959 my father said: "Between 2463 [Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring,
according to the Tale of Years] and the beginning of Gandalf's special enquiries concerning the Ring
(nearly 500 years later) they [the Stoors] appear indeed to have died out altogether (except of course for
Sméagol); or to have fled from the shadow of Dol Guldur."
10 According to the author's note given in Note 2 above, Gollum fled into Moria from terror of the
Nazgûl; cf. also the suggestion on p.354 that one of the purposes of the Lord of Morgul in riding on
northward beyond the Gladden was the hope of finding Gollum.
11 These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not
better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers. [Author's note.]
12 According to the Dwarves this needed usually the thrust or two; only a very strong Dwarf could open
them single-handed. Before the desertion of Moria doorwards were kept inside the West-gate and one at
least was always there. In this way a single person (and so any intruder or person trying to escape) could
not get out without permission. [Author's note.]
13 In A, Saruman denied knowledge of where the Ring was hid; in B he "denied all knowledge of the land
that they sought." But this is probably no more than a difference of wording.
14 Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to
daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus
Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually
revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
15 The entry for the 18
th of September 3018 in the Tale of Years reads: "Gandalf escapes from Orthanc in
the early hours. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen." Laconic as this entry is, giving no hint that the
Riders visited Isengard, it seems to be based on the story told in version C.
16 No indication is given in any of these texts of what passed between Sauron and Saruman as a result of
the latter's unmasking.
17 Lobelia Bracegirdle married Otho Sackville-Baggins; their son was Lotho, who seized control of the
Shire at the time of the War of the Ring, and was then known as "the Chief." Farmer Cotton referred in
conversation with Frodo to Lotho's property in leaf-plantations in the Southfarthing (The Return of the
King VI 8).
18 The usual way was by the crossing of Tharbad to Dunland (rather than direct to Isengard), whence
goods were sent more secretly on to Saruman. [Author's note.]
19 Cf. The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (I, iii. The North-kingdom, and the Dúnedain): "It was at this
time [during the Great Plague that reached Gondor in 1636] that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan,
and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."
20 Since the Black Captain knew so much, it is perhaps strange that he had had so little idea of where the
Shire, the land of the Halflings, lay; according to the Tale of Years there were already Hobbits settled in
Bree at the beginning of the fourteenth century of the Third Age, when the Witch-king came north to
Angmar.
21 See The Fellowship of the Ring I, 9. When Strider and the Hobbits left Bree (ibid. I, 11) Frodo caught
a glimpse of the Dunlending ("a sallow face with sly, slanting eyes") in Bill Ferny's house on tin outskirts
of Bree, and thought: "He looks more than half like a goblin."
22 Cf. Gandalf's words at the Council of Elrond: "Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree."
23 As the concluding sentence of this quotation shows, the meaning is: "Gandalf had as yet no thought that
the Halflings would have in the future any connexion with the Rings." The meeting of the White Council in
2851 took place ninety years before Bilbo found the Ring.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Walküre:
Thank you for providing us with this very precious insight, Necro. I knew about Gandalf's metaphorical rings of smoke, but I had never got through the details of that moment in the Unfinished Tales, alongside the other aspects concerning the bitterness between the two Istari (with Saruman feeling most of that resentment, of course). You are surely free to make usage of these little pieces, Necro; I can't see any defect in that and our whole work will certainly benefit from these secondary sides of the lore.

As I read those words, the opinion I had been coming up with, in regards of this kind of lore, was greatly reinforced: it's always great to analyse the difference between these successive additions and the rougher lore of the Silmarillion, which, regardless of its brevity and obscurity, kind of constitutes the origin of Tolkien's vision and the main fundamental pillars which his saga is built on. Paramount themes that are regarded as customary and pervasive, given their recurrence in the vastness of the very lore. I therefore suppose we could set the limits of whatever addition, so that those prime principles are not contradicted in any way. For example, I and Fine decided to accept only the earliest version of Galadriel's history (narrated in the Silmarillion), entailing her joining the rebellion of the Noldor for her malice-free longing for power in Middle-earth, surviving the deadly journey through the Helcaraxë and meeting with Celeborn (a Sindarin prince) in Doriath.

The original portrait of the Silmarillion has always fascinated me for a few reasons, the most important of which consisting of the holistic approach of the narration, as it deals with all pivotal topics during the eras of Arda. An ancient, primordial and mythical conception that embodies the generalities of this universe. I thus feel that some late modifications of Tolkien himself or of his own son seem to alter the original essence of the mentioned properties. What do you think about it? I myself am a quite speculative/antiquity-minded person and a kind of law-guy too; henceforth, that explains quite exhaustively why I like to consider the Silmarillion a sort of mythical ensemble of tales, which sets the imperative rules that ought to be taken into account and determines the nature of the whole construction, as a constitution would do for a country  ;)

Walküre:

--- Zitat ---Now the Shadow grew ever greater, and the hearts of Elrond and Mithrandir darkened. Therefore on a time Mithrandir at great peril went again to Dol Guldur and the pits of the Sorcerer, and he discovered the truth of his fears, and escaped. And returning to Elrond he said:
‘True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.’
And Elrond answered: ‘In the hour that Isildur took the Ring and would not surrender it, this doom was wrought, that Sauron should return.’
‘Yet the One was lost,' said Mithrandir, ‘and while it still lies hid, we can master the Enemy, if we gather our strength and tarry not too long.'
Then the White Council was summoned; and Mithrandir urged them to swift deeds, but Curunír spoke against him, and counselled them to wait yet and to watch.

‘For I believe not,’ said he, ‘that the One will ever be found again in Middle-earth. Into Anduin it fell, and long ago, I deem, it was rolled to the Sea. There it shall lie until the end, when all this world is broken and the deeps are removed.'
Therefore naught was done at that time, though Elrond's heart misgave him, and he said to Mithrandir:
'Nonetheless I forbode that the One will yet be found, and then war will arise again, and in that war this Age will be ended. Indeed in a second darkness it will end, unless some strange chance deliver us that my eyes cannot see.’
'Many are the strange chances of fee world,’ said Mithrandir, 'and help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter.'
--- Ende Zitat ---
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Walküre:
So, having a look at what our 'bible' tells us, we're more or less following the guidelines of the Silmarillion, with the sole exception that Gandalf didn't feel (in our game) to reveal everything he had faced in Dol Guldur to Saruman; even though Galadriel has knowledge of the real state of things, Saruman is thus given the scope for convincing the other guests that the menace might be one of the Nazgûl and for delaying possible immediate counter-measures from the same council.

I therefore believe we should take advantage of this ambiguous scenario of said/unsaid truths that has created among the participants of the assembly (with Gandalf and Galadriel siding with each other, obviously), with the objective of getting each of us to deal with the lost lore of the Rings of Power and to augment the liveliness of the relative debate. In the end, when we deem necessary to end the meeting, Saruman too will have admitted the return of Sauron and will have, though, imposed in the meantime his will to wait and linger.

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