Conversations in Doriath: Discussion and Feedback

[Walküre]

This is the relative discussion topic of the soon-to-be-established game that concerns the canonical and pivotal conversations between Galadriel and Melian, while the former was a guest of Elwë and the Maia in Doriath, the millenary guarded realm of Beleriand.

After a first visit, Galadriel was mesmerised by the hidden and protected essence of that legendary realm, whose those said properties would later be recognisable both in Lothlórien (magical defence) and in the Halls of Thranduil (hidden halls and caverns); she also got very much enchanted by the powers of Queen Melian and her sacred rule over her people. These were the main reasons of the Noldorin princess' decision to stay in Doriath as a stable guest (she would also have her first encounter with Celeborn too, being him a Sindarin prince at the court of the king). Unlike the Houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin, the sons of Finarfin were friendly welcomed due to their common blood ties with the Sindarin royal family: Finarfin's spouse is Eärwen, daughter of Elwë's brother Olwë (king of the Teleri of Alqualondë).

The conversations of such two mighty characters were always wide-ranging and deeply emotional, encompassing both the sad fate of the Noldor in Middle-earth and their memories of their past in Valinor. The farsighted Maia had realised, in time, that Galadriel and the Noldor as a whole were carrying a heavy burden, and so she managed to have the princess of Tirion tell her about the darkening of the Blessed Realm, the theft of the Silmarils and the Noldor's arrival in Middle-earth to reclaim them. Galadriel, though, had not had the heart to reveal the other obscure side of the story which referred to the infamous Kinslaying and the consequent Noldor's exile from Aman. That aspect would be unveiled after some time, provoking the wrath of Thingol as he discovered that many of his own kin had been massacred by the madness of Fëanor. Galadriel would nonetheless be permitted to remain, given that her presence was source of appreciation and joy among the people of Doriath, and that she had by then become the beloved scholar of the Queen.


A Noldorin delegation is welcomed at the doors of Menegroth


Participants allowed: DieWalküre and Fine

[Fine]

Alright, before we get startet we should gather up the facts we will need.

When the main host of the Noldor arrived, having crossed the Helcaraxë in the far North, the sun rose for the first time (thus, starting the First Year of the Sun, FA 1). I think we can safely set the first visit of Galadriel and her brothers to Doriath within the first years of the First Age. At that time, two battles had been fought in Beleriand, the most recent one being the one in which Fëanor perished. The forces of Angband are held back by the surrounding Noldor realms and the land is at peace.

Concerning the more practical matters: I do not yet know which role you, Walküre, would like to assign to me (though I have an elaborate guess in mind), but I'm fine with either choice. I think it would be best if you started the game with an introducing post, like you did with the White Council, to set the scene. Topics will come up as we get into the actual discussions, I'm sure.

[Walküre]

Yes, I agree. We should start from the very first visit and then continue to explore Galadriel's long permanence in Doriath at the court of Thingol and Melian. If you share my view, I think you should pick up Melian's role. As much as I would love to play an Ainurin character, I am personally more acquainted with Galadriel's psychology and I really admire her 'wilder' characterisation back in the Elder Days (after her ambitious and fiery heart had led her to choose the exile from Aman).

I will then proceed with opening th new game as soon as I can do so. I would say that the first posts could relate to the two characters' thoughts; while Galadriel is riding to Doriath and Melian waiting for the guests (reminiscing some events or talking briefly to Elwë). Today I am a bit busy though, and it's also a quite interesting coincidence: I too have to pay a visit to my relatives, although not in Doriath of course 

I'll see what I can do. It might be not before this evening or tomorrow 

[VectorMaximus]

I'm not sure I would be much use in this one walk. You know how my heart is tied far more closely to the Feanoreans and Fingolfineans than is perhaps good to play a role in this, being first and foremost concerning the Sindar and House of Finarfin. But if you have a part you want me to play, just tell me.

[Fine]

I'll see what I can do. It might be not before this evening or tomorrow 

There is no need to hurry, just do it when you get to it
In the meantime, I will try and prepare for this ambitious role. You have already given me the perfect starting point for Melian; a conversation with Elwë about matters of importance to their realm as well as the new arrivals drawing near to Doriath.

[Walküre]

You know how my heart is tied far more closely to the Feanoreans and Fingolfineans than is perhaps good to play a role in this, being first and foremost concerning the Sindar and House of Finarfin.

Yes, I know that you are deeply into the proud Fëanor, the valiant Fingolfin and their respective Houses. That's why I had opted for Fine. Nevertheless, I would be more than pleased by your participation in the game either way. Just guessing, Celeborn or even Elwë himself might be potential choices, especially with the latter being renowned to be a proud king too; you could also arrange for including a fictional character or a minor character as a messenger of the House of Fëanor (given that they had initially asked for Thingol's alliance, but they were refused every type of friendly co-operation). A minor role would suit well, as it won't require a so active commitment in the game, apart from sporadic appearances. Do as you wish 

We will nonetheless have plenty of time for dealing with Fëanor extensively. As a very brief hint, one plan could consist of exploring the life of the Noldor in Aman and the turbulent happenings of the exile, above all the Noldorin council held in Tirion.

In the meantime, I will try and prepare for this ambitious role. You have already given me the perfect starting point for Melian; a conversation with Elwë about matters of importance to their realm as well as the new arrivals drawing near to Doriath.

Great input. The game is exactly supposed to be an opportunity to deal with the ever changing events of Beleriand during most of the War of the Jewels, while remaining safely within the Girdle of Melian. Also, compared to the solemnity of the White Council, it would be interesting to give the narration a more informal tone and to recreate a bit the atmosphere of the everyday life in Doriath.

[Fine]

Very good. After the introduction has been posted, I will start off with Melian, if you do not mind. I already have a pretty good idea about what I'm going to write, and look forward to what you have in mind.

I am of course also open to additional participants, sharing your thoughts on what you wrote to VectorMaximus.

[Walküre]

Starting with Melian is really the best option. Ok, I will open the game as soon as I can do so 

[Walküre]

I would like to share my thoughts on an interesting topic I often wonder about.

In regards of the First Age and the quests of the Noldor, I assume we will all follow the earliest approach of Tolkien to the matters involved, thus sticking to the actual old and original version of the Silmarillion (the one I always relate to).

In accordance to the lore of the Silmarillion: though the immense sorrow and mourning of the House of Finarfin, their kin in Alqualondë was massacred by Fëanor and, later, by the well-intentioned intervention of the House of Fingolfin, that believed that the craftsman of the Silmarils had been unjustly assaulted. Their horrified reaction shifted quickly to the ambitious goals that the Noldor had set themselves on and to the duty to achieve them. That is, the return of the Silmarils to their legitimate owner, the punishment of Morgoth and the longing for the free vast lands of Middle-earth, wild yet ready to be ruled over by the Eldar coming from the other shores of the Sea.

As far as I remember (and as I also read somewhere else), it is also suggested that the consequent curse of the Valar involved all the exiled equally, leaving in legacy a terrible burden to bear, unless the rebels redeemed and thus deserved piety for all their sins (of which the most impious ones were having dared to accuse the Valar of trying to cage the Noldor in their Blessed Realm, having disobeyed their direct orders and having stained the pure shores of Aman with the blood of the innocent Teleri). Even if the House of Finarfin refused to take part in the Kinslaying and swear over Fëanor's Oath, the hearts of those who opted to abandon the Undying Lands were filled by profound regret yet an eager desire to see with their own eyes the unexplored territories of the mortal world promised to them. Passing the deadly Helcaraxë, which only the Ainur may get through unspoiled, didn't prevent them from eventually landing in Beleriand.

In light of this canonical version, it's also argued that Galadriel never managed to receive forgiveness by the Powers of Arda until her very refusal to succumb to the lure of the One Ring. I don't deem this interpretation accurate though, as I think the ban and the curse of Mandos were altogether lifted after the plea of Eärendil and the end of the War of Wrath, with the exiled being granted the return to Eressëa and then to Valinor itself.

The lore of the History of Middle-earth: this later version of Tolkien changes a lot of things both in purely factual terms and the specific motives underlying each character; particularly, a new story of Galadriel and Celeborn was codified. Tolkien in fact tells that the two had already met in Alqualondë during the Years of the Trees; then, during the betrayal of Fëanor, not only did she refuse any involvement but she also fought directly to defend the people of her mother Eärwen. With the allowance of the Valar, she sailed with Celeborn to Beleriand in a white swan-ship, being staunchly resolute to aid her family and hinder the plans of the House of Fëanor that might have caused terrible atrocities again (as they were completely dominated by greed and revenge).

Now, with all my deep respect for the Professor and his masterpieces, I completely reject the latter version and I would say that the former is definitely more loyal to the pillars of the Silmarillion (though rough and obscure its lore could be). Henceforth, speaking about our RPG games, I would say we had better transpose correctly the fiery characteristic common to all the royal Noldor and their people. In this case, I would like to express Galadriel's sincere regret for what happened, along with showing that the flame of dominion and fight against the Evil (the difference with Fëanor is exactly that she and her brothers convey their energies to the real primary cause of the events that troubled the peace of Arda) is well alive. I still have to figure out the right measure of all of this; that is, the just balance between her two sides (don't forget that she had nonetheless disobeyed the will of the Valar too).

What do you think about this? Do you have any other example to bring, maybe related to other characters? I'm really curious to know other people's opinions 

[Fine]

Sorry for the late reply. I completely agree with you in that we should remain faithful to the original iteration of Galadriel - defiant of the Valar and desiring to carve out a realm of her own in Middle-earth - instead of the one you mentioned where she does not cross Helcaraxe. So once again, we are in full agreement.

[Walküre]

So once again, we are in full agreement.

We are connected, as Melian and Galadriel 

Hopefully, I will write my first post of the game this evening. After university classes, I'm having a lot of spare time to spend while journeying back home. There already is a main idea, and I just have to finalise some aspects 

[Fine]

I really liked your start with Nerwen, as she is at that time truly that: a fighter, a fiery-hearted maiden, no lesser a warrior than her brothers. Excellent.

In my last post, I attempted to separate the surrounding characters (Thingol and sons of Finarfin) from our two protagonists so we could start a more secluded conversation. I hope that is all right with you - I am of course always open to suggestions and will gladly make changes if they are required.

[Walküre]

Carving a more intimate space from the main happenings of the visit is surely a wise choice. We are then able to immerse ourselves into their conversations right from the start. I would really like to maintain a friendlier and more informal tone between the two as time passes 

I could have chosen her father-name Artanis ('noble maiden'), but I opted for her mother-name Nerwen ('man-maiden') to stress the fiery characterisation of Galadriel I was referring to. Galadriel was the name given to her by Celeborn, when they fell in love in Doriath (after that event, I will start using her usual name as we commonly know her).

[Walküre]

I think we need to discuss some important aspects: Will Galadriel return to Hithlum with her brothers, after this first visit? Will Galadriel reveal to Melian, during this first encounter, part of the truth concerning the arrival of the Noldor in Middle-earth?

Elwë and Melian obviously suspect something and far rumours throughout the territories of Beleriand had told that the coming of the blessed Eldar might have been caused by something else than the mere desire of ruling over new lands. Also, they don't still know why the Valar had created the Sun and the Moon, appointed to journey through the skies of Arda and bring new light to the World. Needless to say, very little do the King and the Queen even know about the curse of Mandos and their guests' exile from Aman.

P.S. Just an insight into the words sung by Galadriel in front of Melian: in my interpretation, those inscriptions were a famous poem/song (poetry and singing are very much connected in the Elven culture) relating to the Valar and their realm. It was commonly known by the inhabitants of Aman and it stood as a symbol of the Powers' authority.

In this case, the song represents Galadriel's nostalgia for Valinor; a feeling that contrasts with the longing for revenge and her ambitions. This is what I exactly want to express, as she is deeply torn between regret and desire. Those lines shall forever remain memories of pure happiness of her merry life in the Undying Lands.

Another trivial fact, I was quite inspired to write that 'poem' by two songs of Enya that I was listening to the other day. It was not a matter of lyrics, but more a matter of melody and atmosphere (joy with some shades of multicoloured emotions of which regret and sadness are indeed a part, as a sort of 'aware happiness'). I personally find really interesting the idea of experimenting with poems/songs during the narration, which is also a recurrent theme in the Silmarillion. It would definitely be an enrichment if we were to explore more of that aspect 

Songs: Pale Grass Blue and The Loxian Gate

[Fine]

I think we need to discuss some important aspects: Will Galadriel return to Hithlum with her brothers, after this first visit? Will Galadriel reveal to Melian, during this first encounter, part of the truth concerning the arrival of the Noldor in Middle-earth?

Well, as I am sort of stuck right now on deciding what to write for Melian, I think it would be best for Galadriel to remain in Doriath at least a bit longer than her brothers who (I assume) would return to forge their individual realms within Beleriand, as Thingol gave them permission to do.
Also, Galadriel's reveal about the events at Alqualonde should wait, I think, until she has talked more with Melian (and Thingol), because I do not think this secret is something that even a Maia can perceive, if Galadriel is unwilling to reveal it herself. Once it is revealed and Elwe learns of it, he summons Finrod (if I recall correctly) and questions him about it, while Galadriel is also present.

[Walküre]

Ok, Galadriel shall then remain in Doriath for a while and get more acquainted with the everyday life of the realm. She will finally reveal the atrocities of Alqualondë when she feels ready to do it, even though Melian will get closer and closer to the truth as she explores deeply the depths of Galadriel's mind. If I'm not wrong, it's exactly Melian who 'convinces' her to get rid of that heavy burden.

As it's narrated in the Silmarillion, Galadriel nonetheless tells the Maia a part of the real state of things: the terrible end of the Noon of Valinor and the theft of the Silmarils. What Fëanor committed is unveiled, as you wrote, later and it so becomes the cause of the Sindar's hostility towards the Houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin.

Another aspect. When is Galadriel to meet the love of her life? Should Celeborn appear in the story, in your opinion, before or after the suffered confession of the Princess? Honestly, I would have her begin to interact with him once she's freed from the sorrows and guilt (though not directly responsible) of the Kinslaying. What do you think?

[Fine]

Another aspect. When is Galadriel to meet the love of her life? Should Celeborn appear in the story, in your opinion, before or after the suffered confession of the Princess? Honestly, I would have her begin to interact with him once she's freed from the sorrows and guilt (though not directly responsible) of the Kinslaying. What do you think?

Yes, I agree (as usual^^), it would be better for her to Encounter Celeborn only after she has relieved herself of the burden she carried with her from Valinor.

[Fine]

I've got to admit that I am, sort of, stuck right now, and am in need of a brliiant idea on how to continue the conversation. I will of course answer question you had Galadriel ask Melian but I am wondering about where the conversation should go from there. I do not think it is already time for Galadriel to reveal the true nature of the doom that hangs above the Noldorin People, even though Melian may sense it. Do you have a suggestion?

[Walküre]

Yes, her revelation should come later; not before her brothers have left Doriath for sure.

''[...]May I ask thee, my Queen, this: does nostalgia ever make thee long to behold the wonders of the Blessed Realm one last time? The evergreen fields lit once by the kind silver of Ibrīniðilpathānezel or the colossal palaces of Valimar?''

Even though Melian has surely realised that the sudden coming of the Sun and the Moon was due to some reasons, she doesn't obviously know what really happened during the Darkening of Valinor. So, while she reminisces her memory of the Blessed Realm, she could ask Galadriel what that 'once' exactly means. She won't tell her the whole story, but only the main events.

[Walküre]

Needless to say, once the two get to know each other better and deeply, we will then be allowed to use briefer sentences and less solemn words. That will mark the difference (and evolution) between the new life of Galadriel and the whole ceremonial atmosphere when the Noldor first arrived in Doriath. It will thus be easier for us to develop that RPG work and explore more sides.

[Fine]

Yes, that is what I tried to do, to have them get to know each other better. Even though it may seem that Melian is criticising Nerwen a little bit here it is mostly done in order for her to better understand what happened and how Nerwen is feeling.

[Walküre]

Even though it may seem that Melian is criticising Nerwen a little bit here it is mostly done in order for her to better understand what happened and how Nerwen is feeling.

Yes, I noticed that quite probing attitude of Melian (it's what happens in the Silmarillion either). It is nonetheless what I expected: she's naturally worried and wants to offer Galadriel a genuine support. I will think about the answer during the afternoon and structure it so that Galadriel begins to disclose her heart to the Maia.

[Walküre]

I'm a little bit pondering what will be Galadriel's response. Instead of a long and systematic story-telling activity, what if she began with not so specific sentences and, then, when Melian remarks her own sincere will to know the truth, she eventually started giving details of the happenings in Valinor? I guess that will represent Galadriel's initial uneasiness, with everything getting warmer and more comfortable once she frees herself from that burden.

[Walküre]

Sorry for the long posts, but Galadriel owed some explanations to Melian 

After what will be the Maia's response, I thought about slowing the progress of the game (the visit) down a bit, via a kind of clever means: what would you say if the Noldor, Melian, Thingol and their court were to organise a welcoming banquet in the halls of Menegroth?

Since the very archaic literature (Iliad and Odyssey, for example), banquets are precious occasions (and a smart narrative solution) to let each character interact with the others and tell stories about itself. In our particular context, there will be other interesting activities to involve people in.

[Fine]

I am thoroughly impressed by Galadriel's long and detailed speech, very very well done!

The banquet idea sounds excellent. When I get to it, I will have a Messenger interrupt our two conversing ladies (or something along the lines of that) to inform them of the upcoming feast, and then wen can send them there.

[Walküre]

Ok, so be it. Messengers are always smart narrative solutions as well. We should only arrange for the main settings of the feast and then get everything to start. For example, if the banquet ought to be held during the morning or at night, and the main characteristics of the whole context.

According to what I pictured in mind so far, I thought about a nocturnal banquet in a quite intimate environment. But I'm fully for the alternative idea either: a royal feast in grand style, which we could easily set in the night anyway and keep it reserved. Something akin to this typology of banquets 



I guess Elwë wouldn't mind at all giving the Noldor that kind of welcoming, in the great halls of his palace lit by hundreds of torches (or Elven lamps).

[Walküre]

Ok, it seems that we have chosen to set the banquet in a more reserved context. Now, leave aside minor descriptions and details, we should ponder a bit about the matters of the friendly and convivial talks that are to be the centre of our next posts.

I didn't exactly think about structured proposals yet, though it's desirable that the common tone be predominantly informal; this doesn't mean, though, that smart references to events in Beleriand or to the wider lore should be necessarily forbidden. It's quite the opposite: clever elements will make the scenario more actual and iconic (in the sense of being inserted in precise historical contexts). Just to throw around some examples, the Noldor could ask something about the people inhabiting Beleriand and their lore.

[Walküre]

Now that the banquet got lively, I came up with this idea: what if each of the royal participants, the two monarchs and the Noldor, sang one poem about a chosen theme? As a sort of 'poetry contest', which is something recurrent in many iconic tales. In this precise case, we would just explore what Galadriel and Melian have to say, without giving the whole situation a competitive tone. Sung verses are too a means via which Elves convey their emotions and deal with their past.

Obviously, if you prefer to continue with other types of interaction, I will follow that typology of narration 

[Walküre]

I shall continue with the development of the game in due time. As we decided, the banquet is to go on and provide us with valuable opportunities, in which the participants might share tales, poems, chants or wisdom with each other. The common and renowned archetype of banquets in classical literature. If you have other alternatives in mind, I will be more than open to different propositions 

[Fine]

I am fine with your proposition, go ahead and carry out your plans as proposed

[Walküre]

Ok, I will proceed to continue in that direction. I'm going to make sure that the style remains informal and the tone not so much solemn. Writing essays in these circumstances would divert us from the scope of the situation.

[Walküre]

So, Lúthien has eventually been introduced in the narration. As a character, I constructed her and imagined her as a genuinely buoyant and positive princess, fascinated by the simplest yet most important aspects of life. Her heart is pure and wholly clear from any desire for power or revenge. A quite stark contrast with Galadriel.

Personally, I have always deemed her the mightiest Elf of all times. Mightier than any High King of Middle-earth or Valinor itself (Vanyar included). She, who tore Sauron's fortress down, bent Mandos' adamant judgement and even subjugated the very Morgoth with her melody

[Walküre]

The banquet has now concluded. I'm open to suggestions as to how we can continue the narration

[Walküre]

I noticed and got to terms with the fact that discussion boards have been quite silent, lately. I beg your pardon. I may have gone too far and deep in the story-telling, without giving the proper explanations of what I plan to do or where I want this story to proceed. Said that, I promise I will hereafter provide more insights. This space ought also to be used for the purpose, for this is its prime function. Something not so viable to do in the RPG Library, unless I deal with poems.

At the present state, I'm willing to explore Galadriel's and Melian's memories of Valinor in a quite thorough way, making usage of the words of whom has dwelt there in the first place, prior to the kindling of the Sun and the Moon. Particularly, it is of much interest for us that Galadriel is reflecting on how the Valar are used to behaving, when it comes to punishment or retribution against crimes of any sort. The memory of rebellion is still vivid in the hearts of the Noldor, thus tormenting their conscience a bit, although we know that the House of Arafinwë was not involved in the killing of the Teleri during the tragic happenings of Alqualondë. This introduces also the theme of Melkor being chained in the Gaol of Mandos for a three-era period and his following release by decree of the Valar themselves; the latter was utmost cause of distrust from the Noldor's part, as they perceived Manwë's ruling weak and wobbly, to the point of the Powers being accused of being partly responsible for the end of the Eternal Day.

Pivotal matter, as you may read. Or, as we say in Italy: a lot of meat on the fire

[Walküre]

Lúthien will now join the nocturnal conversation between Galadriel and Melian, providing that genuine and sincere kind touch to the narration, for she is a maiden of pure heart herself, alien to hatred of any sort or even resentment, if not for the crimes committed by Melkor and his numerous minions. She's also far from sheer ambition, when it solely encompasses power and the longing for might, which is a very recurrent of a theme in the entirety of Tolkien's writings. Lúthien is thus reluctant to fight, unless it is for a just cause and for love, the latter being the paramount thread that is to characterise her iconic deeds and unite all these aspects together, in a sole epic saga. She therefore brings buoyancy of the sincerest type, that's for sure, toning down the discussion a bit and making it more amicable in general terms. In my opinion, she also embodies in the perfect manner that innocent trait of the people of Beleriand, who just desire to live in peace and to be left alone, as much acquainted with the Evil's snares they had got in time. Alas, doom is to be upon the realm of Doriath and very grim moments are ahead of those noble characters.