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Dorwinion Faction

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Fredius:
That's a bit rude don't you think? These guys have put in a lot of thoughts into their concept, and you call it the worst idea of the day, while you even say that you didn't read the whole thread?? Why isn't it possible for Dorwinion to be neutral? They are located right next to Rhun (if not inside of Rhun itself, since Rhun just means east and encompasses multiple clans), but they trade with the Elves of Mirkwood, and possibly with the "Evil" kingdoms of Rhun as well. There is nothing wrong with neutrality, they might have had to pick a side during the War of the Ring, but then if you read the last posts a bit better then you know that the current proposed Dorwinion faction isn't neutral anylonger, but rather in a civil war, which forces them to pick sides.

Since they lay right next to Rhun, it can be entirely possible that there were people inside Dorwinion who sympathized more with Rhun, and rather choose to fight for them. And ofcourse there are people who sympathize with the Elves living in Dorwinion (yes there might have been Elves there, I suggest this article to everyone), and rather choose to fight for them instead. This is a very possible scenario, and the guys who made this proposal did a great job in trying to make this gameplay wise possible, and make it a very unique faction that differs from the rest.

I don't think you should judge a proposal because of the names for the different elements. Names are always up to debate, and if you don't like Vineyard Court and Cult of the Shadow then why not just come up with new ideas, so that you can take this proposal "seriously"?

Personally I agree with you that I'd rather see Harad and Rhun become seperate, but it does not mean that people can't think of other ideas different from ours.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 29. Dez 2016, 17:01 ---I know myself, that I phrased this more extreme than necessary, but in a way I guess this is my honest opinion.

--- Ende Zitat ---

And honest opinions are always welcome. Just, if one were really aimed to give a meaningful contribution to the discussion, it should be better to go through proposals very carefully and consider the particular context of said proposals. In this case, the main concept was born while taking for granted that the hypothetical Evil Men faction will be a single faction, which is something I support and of which I understand the reasons: a more concrete chance to stick to the atmosphere of the cinematographic trilogy and thus to make usage of the elements we are already provided with, without the need to tamper with the faction via too much fictional additions. In this perspective, it's quite obvious that, on the other hand, this proposed Dorwinion faction will inexorably need some fictional additions whatsoever, given the scarcity of many sources. This fact shouldn't surprise anyone then.

Furthermore, it's the very presence of this sort of exceptions (a neutral realm and a mixed culture) that makes Arda realistic. The eternal conflict between Good and Evil does occupy a fundamental position, but that doesn't mean that others things can't take place in the meantime, as a secondary narration beside the central theme of the story. Even more, I would say, if we deal with the universe of Men or of those mysterious lands of the East. It's exactly this enigmatic touch that grants them their particular connotation: voluble people that can't be ordered precisely neither within the Good's ranks, nor within the Evil's ones. Just think about the condition of those Men who happen to serve Sauron and how their case is completely different to the one of Orcs. In this sense, this quotation of Faramir always reminds me of Middle-earth's (Men's) multicoloured nature.


--- Zitat ---The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there in peace. War will make corpses of us all.
--- Ende Zitat ---

In the end, proposals may always be improved and perfected. More important than the final result is perhaps the fact that multiple people strive to share their thoughts and find a just compromise. Otherwise, if one is just willing to belittle other people's concepts (often regardless of those people's efforts), one had better keep one's opinions for oneself.

Melkor Bauglir:
OK, since I am responsible for this, some things might need clarification.
First of all, it is completely and utterly uninmportant that I didn't read the last pages with respect to me thinking, Dorwinion is an extremely bad idea for a faction! I could possibly explained this more, but all the reasons mentioned above are independant of not knowing the past discussion (that is in three short terms: speculation, uninvolvement in the WotR and "grey faction").
Secondly, I called the idea of using fan-fiction as the basis of the concept the worst idea of the day, not the entire concept. I might point out, that I like certain units in the concept, like the Rebel Infantry and Engineers, but even if that's the case: They'd be better off with the Men of the East. If we really need this, I might add as well that things like fire-throwing Cultists / Towers sound... well... over-the-top might be the right term.
And yes, I have to concede, that names are open to change.


One thing in general: What if you read a proposal and think that it simply has no place in the mod? This isn't even restricted to this concept, quite the contrary! Really, what do you do then? The thing is, if I read a concept and the core-idea is just not for me, which means any base for compromise doesn't exist, I can't find a logical idea to "give it a try", so to speak. This isn't personal, but in a way really writing elaborate criticism about this would require me to say, "well, first change everything, untill we have another concept, then we may talk again". ;) And this in itself is hardly a constructive way of arguing, thus I prefer getting to the point immediately. Because it literally doesn't help anyone, if the core message gets buried under 4 paragraphs of text, all open to interpretation.

To conclude, some specifix answers:

--- Zitat ---In this perspective, it's quite obvious that, on the other hand, this proposed Dorwinion faction will inexorably need some fictional additions whatsoever, given the scarcity of many sources. This fact shouldn't surprise anyone then.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, I agree. "Some fictional additions" as you said are however something completely different than a faction, were every single unit and hero is fictional! The entire setting is speculation (civil war), the entire unit roster is fictional (partly well designed, partly badly designed) and the entire hero roster is fictional. I could also argue, that it is "uncanonical" (Gosh, I hate this word! xD) for one obvious reason: The prominence of female heroes which are extremely minor in Tolkien's works WITH RESPECT TO THEIR PRESENCE IN BATTLE. (I felt forced to write this in capitals, otherwise Walküre might have destroyed me. ;))


--- Zitat --- In this sense, this quotation of Faramir always reminds me of Middle-earth's (Men's) multicoloured nature.......
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes... About that, it appears, that I forgot about that quote... 8-| I might also add, that this might be one of Tolkien's legendary "write this, say this"-moments: Faramir says, there the Men of the East aren't intrinsically evil -eventhough during the entire history of Arda, there was at most an era of non-aggression between them and the west. Yes, he describes them as brave (much braver than orcs!), but still there was never peace or say, harmony, between east and west. It's like the elf lady we hear so much about who is said to be one of the wisest creatures and greatest leaders against Sauron in ME, eventhough she fails to check the ominous dark fortress, literally right across the Anduin, whose presence was known to her directly (Eorls ride) for 400 (!!!) years and of whose malicious interests there was no doubt.  ;) OK, Lorien-DG is 100 miles, but honestly? 400 years? And it's not like the elves were doing much during this time. Seriously, in 1617, Newton hadn't even published his Axiom's, thus physics was basically just philosophy. (Of course, that's not my point and obviously hyperbole! My point is, that Tolkien did this more than once, where someone is said to be something, he / she really isn't, coming to think about. :D)


To end this perhaps with an offer: Do you really want me to continue arguing about this? As I was saying, I don't see any basis for this, apart from checking which parts could find use elsewhere. I don't specifically mind, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere. And it's certainly more delightfull to not constantly read my slightly sarcastic comments. xD
I don't see this as a rejection, but there is really not much room for argument here!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

lordoflinks:
@Melkor Bauglir
Greetings. To you I would like to say this; if you wish to comment on an idea negatively then do so like this "I do not support this proposal, as I feel it is non-canonical and does not fit"; that is all, a rant accomplishes nothing; feel free to offer constructive criticism. If you are getting angry at a 'non-canonical' fraction however, I wish you to view Angmar, as that fraction is just as non-canonical as this proposal in terms of the heroes and men of Carn-Dum.
To answer a few specific points:

Cultists- They are intended to be 'over the top' as Tolkien always has associated actual magic, the fire ball kind, with evil; yes if they were good it would be inappropriate but they are not; personally I don't see them any more wrong than the loremasters and sorcerers of Angmar; plus they offer a unique siege mechanic. 

Female Heroes- Dorwinion is isolated, and as it does not appear very much in the histories; it has likely experienced a long era of peace; as such I have envisioned this, coupled with eleven influence, has allowed traditional gender roles to break down in the nobility, I do not argue this has extended to the peasants, (And indeed the 'peasant' fraction, the cult has a more traditional ratio) but rather in the upper class it has become more accepted for a woman to become a knight; due to the fact prior to the speculated civil war the role was little more then symbolic in terms of fighting actual enemies, that is not to say they did not train.  I feel such flavour only in the court side increases the diversity of fractions. 

If you have specific constructive advice, please share it; to appease your comments so far would require a completely new proposal. If you have no constructive advice, please refrain from anything more; others have said what I would have bar one more thing. The chance of any idea in the off-topic section working its way into the mod is very very remote, so in all likelihood your wish shall come to pass. 

dkbluewizard:
Well I have heard everyone's thoughts on the matter and I won't be as truculent as Melkor, when expressing my opinions.

Diewalkure, LordofLinks, and Fredius thanks for the support. I feel LordofLinks struck gold and I edited my post...I wonder why it didn't save. But to LordofLinks, I totally support the idea that Alatar is with the Cult of Shadow and that the Cult is more xenophobic than the Court. Hence is why I suggested the Court having more elf related heroes, if you need more heroes, I can definitely pull out more elf characters in that region.

Now Lordoflinks, in regards to the quality vs quantity, I can get behind this, however I would like to see differing units just to make the faction feel different from the good side and evil side. I would like to build on what you have proposed (which was a good idea) and go from there. I agree we should get Edain Wiki involved.

Now Melkor, you said you voted for Hobbits and Unicorns. I can honestly say from a canonical standpoint that the Blue Wizards, to be playable with a faction, would have to go here. They failed in their mission, but based on the appendixes, lost tales, notes, and interviews of Tolkien, we can only surmise what the Blue Wizards did and who they were with.

Dorwinion offers us the answer we need. You may not like the idea at all but I think it is a great addition to offer something as close to Tolkien's canon as possible and implement the blue wizards.

Let us see what we know from the canon Melkor:

1. Dorwinion is an area in the East
2. The Blue Wizards went to the East
3. Lenwe went South of the Anduin before turning back
4. Daeron went into the East.
5. Bladorthin was a King of a Kingdom in the East and ordered many spears for his armies. They were never paid for or delivered (probably till after Smaug was killed).
6. Bladorthin died sometime in the Third Age as referenced by the Dwarfs and Bilbo.
7. Dorwinion is still an area that managed to survive despite Bladorthin's death as referenced by the book the Hobbit.

So there are many canonical elements implemented here. If you dislike the fact that LordofLinks presented a female roster, we could change it around a bit. I agree that a King is more befitting of Dorwinion, but I do not object to having more females in the hero roster, (I'm not sexist--not saying you are, just being loquacious in general).

Angmar was made up of such elements as presented. We have what canon is available and are building on it. If what you say were to be implemented, we would have to take away Angmar, as they are just not canonical enough.

So all in all, I like the concept of the Dorwinion faction. Melkor, you are right that the civil war is completely made up, but it is not out of the realm of possibility since

A) Gondor had a civil war
B) Numenor had their differences
C) Dorwinion's region would have to be this way given that Mordor, Rhun, Erebor, etc. all lie around and near them.
D) They trade with everyone (as referenced in Lost Tales)
E) Avari Elves and Men make up the region.

So I do not feel this is entirely inaccurate but is as close to canon as possible, hence the canonical characters listed.

LordofLinks, I don't know if you would be interested in these elf names, but these are elves that disappeared or may still be around:

Galathil (Celeborn's brother)
Nellas
Nimrodel
Mithrellas
Morwe (more from the notes)
Nurwe (again from the notes)

as for men, we would have to make them up using the canon of tolkien's linguistics as referenced by that site i sent you guys.

Continue the good work and I am still in favor of this.

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