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Umfrage

What is the last faction you would like to see after the Rhun/Harad faction for the Third Age?

Dorwinion
22 (51.2%)
Arnor
3 (7%)
Forodwaith
2 (4.7%)
Nothing (Land of the Sun)
2 (4.7%)
Something Cool
4 (9.3%)
Hobbits and Unicorns
10 (23.3%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 42

Autor Thema: Dorwinion Faction  (Gelesen 3793 mal)

Offline lord_ellessar

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Dorwinion Faction
« am: 1. Okt 2016, 14:36 »
I know that edain have already chose their two new factions but it is always interesting to speak about some new concepts even if it won't be include,...

so i was speaking a really short time with dkbluewizard and i had already a nice concept, i think ...

     DORWINION

  • 1) The choice is yours:

             We know that Dorwinion in the fan culture is a region whit a part of elves and a majority of men, so at the beginning of the skirmish, the player could choose between the elves and the men, with particularities for each parts.
  • 2) The Elves:

             The beginning; at early game, dorwinion should be a faction more based on resources, the first units could be a men militia, the vineyards guards, a unit of five men only and at for example 500 instead of 200 but the resources buildings could be up, and gives 30 instead of 15 the dorwinion factions could recruit messenger that make peace for X time but that are high in price and disappear after a time it gives a real neutral effect of dorwinion faction... the barracks could recruit powerful elves units but high in price and at the oupost, a men outpost where you have elite men units and one hero. At the little oupost, they could choose between vineyards where you can recruits vineyards guards and that gives you money, a merchant outpost, there you can recruit neutral merchants, so enemy can't attack him and you have to sell it in enemy camp and, finally a little watchtower

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Thorns Guards and Bladorthin swords both elven elites units.
  • 3) The Men:

             The beginning; There, dorwinion would be a military faction focused on  numerous units, their units count 10 mens but they are less strong than elves but at a lower price. There at the outpost they recruit elite elves and one hero.

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Vintners court guards, and the prrt i don't know :P
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Okt 2016, 14:40 von lord_ellessar »

Offline lordoflinks

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #1 am: 2. Okt 2016, 09:25 »
I would suggest posting your ideas here:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32416.30.html
As this is a thread for such ideas, unfortunately ideas relating to new fractions tend to get closed here :(
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


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Online Walküre

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #2 am: 2. Okt 2016, 11:46 »
As this is a thread for such ideas, unfortunately ideas relating to new fractions tend to get closed here :(

They tend to get closed for very precise reasons. All the English Moderators have followed this custom so far; not because we are evil or because we don't want you to share your ideas in regards of new factions (you can see yourself how many people participated in the Evil Men thread), but for the fact that new factions are a completely speculative topic and we don't have any planned news concerning them nor vague indications by the Edain Team.

The Edain boards are meant to gather discussions or proposals that relate to known content and factual elements. Also, there is still a major faction yet to be released and I guess most of the attention of the Community will rightly be conveyed to the Misty Mountains.

By the way, I won't lock the topic. I will just move it to the Off-Topic section  ;)

Offline lordoflinks

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #3 am: 3. Okt 2016, 02:18 »
As this is a thread for such ideas, unfortunately ideas relating to new fractions tend to get closed here :(

They tend to get closed for very precise reasons. All the English Moderators have followed this custom so far; not because we are evil or because we don't want you to share your ideas in regards of new factions (you can see yourself how many people participated in the Evil Men thread), but for the fact that new factions are a completely speculative topic and we don't have any planned news concerning them nor vague indications by the Edain Team.

The Edain boards are meant to gather discussions or proposals that relate to known content and factual elements. Also, there is still a major faction yet to be released and I guess most of the attention of the Community will rightly be conveyed to the Misty Mountains.

By the way, I won't lock the topic. I will just move it to the Off-Topic section  ;)
I don't disagree, its just I feel that in the "Other" section of off topic, ideas can be forgotten about and are out of the way and hidden.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Online Walküre

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #4 am: 3. Okt 2016, 10:29 »
They're not at all hidden. They are just detached from the main discussions of the Edain boards for the just reasons stated in my previous comment. When the right time comes, you can be sure that I will move this kind of suggestions in the regular sections.

By the way, are you really sure that they remain hidden in this part of MU? Just look at the Evil Men thread: many people have participated in the topic giving their precious contributions, and the poll has overall gathered almost 100 votes, fact that makes it one of the most popular debates of the English Community. I thus wouldn't really say that moving (temporarily) discussions that concern new factions to this board could hamper their very development in the end. If you want a thread to succeed, you have to make sure to propose interesting concepts and manage things in an efficient way. Ultimately, most of the things are up to who is to take care of the suggestions presented.

Offline Leri_weill

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #5 am: 4. Okt 2016, 18:48 »
Just to add to what Walk said, people like me who always have a look at the "Unread posts" section will never miss a comment about the topic. Be assured that those who want to follow this thread will be able to :)

Back to Dorwinion, it would be a nice add-on to the game, but Tolkien gave next to no details about that people. it would be a faction made from scratch like Angmar has been by the devs. That would take a loooong time, and maybe there are more relevant factions to be added. I for example would love to see a Dunedain faction (or maybe subfaction for GOndor ?)! What ? How did you now I am a Third Age Total War fan ?

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #6 am: 6. Nov 2016, 06:51 »
Hello everyone. I have watched as many good ideas and canonical suggestions have been made. So it is high time I suggested something for the last faction slot and this is Dorwinion.

   So why Dorwinion? For several reasons this kingdom needs to be implemented—it is a sovereign kingdom that trades with everyone, is neutral, is canonical, is in the east, is identified as not being under the influence of Sauron, and is a catalyst for the Blue Wizards and other remaining forces not included in the Edain Mod (such as Avari, blue allies, etc.).

   Please allow me to regale all of you with what we know. I’ll start with King Bladorthin who was to have the Dwarfs of Erebor commission many spears for his army. Bladorthin’s death was premature, and yet we know not his true identity. Some say he was a man, others say an elf—and some speculate that his death was not premature. It is speculation, but I felt he was an elf and the kingdom he ruled was either near, apart, or was in fact Dorwinion. With that stated Dorwinion is a logical faction slot with several mysteries befitting of the blue wizards themselves!

   Heroes: The main issue many will have is “canonical heroes” I have some for you (as Saruman would say). Dorwinion based on its geographical location, and what we know from Lost Tales and other sources, is run by Avari elves. Obviously these elves have never seen the light of the two trees. With that said here is a list of canonical heroes for the Dorwinion fortress:

   Morwe (King of an Avari tribe). Since they are immortal beings, Morwe is not dead, Tolkien wrote about him in his notes, the kingdom of Dorwinion would need a ruler and who better than Morwe? He could be a hero killer or tank along the lines of Celeborn’s power level.

   Nurwe (King of an Avari tribe) essentially the exact same thing as written above and could be either a hero killer or tank.

   Daeron (Bard who went to the Far East after Doriath’s destruction). Everyone knows the greatest bard in middle earth. He is a perfect for this faction as a unit support.

   Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). They went to the far east, not much is known about them. But using what we know, Alatar is of Orome’s kin and would get along with the elves greatly, while Pallando (depending on what you read) is either of Namo, Nienna, or Orome’s people (I personally think he is of Namo’s cause the Valar would have wanted to contest Sauron in many different ways). Pallando gets along with the human side to Dorwinion. The two blue wizards fit in here as Gandalf would for Gondor. They would be most liked here and regarded as wise counselors in the fight against evil.

   So with this said, this leaves room for a scout hero made up by the Edain team (Bladorthin II or Tauriel as a hero perhaps?) and heroes from certain settlements and outposts.

   Outposts: Since I feel the kingdom of Dorwinion should be a wealthy fortified area filled with Avari and Men, the Outpost would be a regular outpost for the faction and the other option is a Cultist outpost which is a cultist like structure that is blue. I think of a Harad looking tent which produces cultists that look like the dudes off of Conan the Barbarian (except in blue), and they are support troops like Angmar’s acolytes, and they field blue easterling like troops.

   Settlements: The settlements are easy, one would be the casual farm producing building, and the second would be a wine field like settlement (entmoot like) that produces the units from Edain 3.81. The Wine Mages would be made from these. The third settlement is a Dwarven settlement that adds dwarvish troops to Dorwinion.

   Overall view of Dorwinion faction: Dorwinion is like Warhammer’s Dogs of War army and is a melting pot of cultures and warriors. They are heavily fortified, but have many different mercenaries or warriors fighting for and with them for various different reasons—out of fear of Sauron and others, loyalty, wealth, or power. A wine kingdom much like the comradery states of Italy during the renaissance.

   Why is it crucial for this to be implemented? Because it fills in the final gaps of middle earth and it is one of the seven kingdoms of the seven crowns that stand as free peoples without necessarily being good or evil. They are just selfish, business like, and monetarily wise. It solves the blue wizard dilemma, units for this faction have already been in production, Edain Team can capitalize and put their great minds to work on this, and finally it gives the player a unique feel on what it is like to have a neutral army that holds all the free peoples in it—a selfish fellowship of the free peoples if you will.

So what do you guys say? Would you like to see this faction implemented? I would maybe we can vote on it?

Also, thank you for taking time to read all this. I know it was long.  :)
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #7 am: 6. Nov 2016, 07:05 »
Also I wanted to add this. Some of you may ask? Why do Dwarfs ally with this faction. Well there are 3 Dorwinions that Tolkien wrote about and they all essentially did the same thing. They traded with everyone including Dwarfs (as shown in the Hobbit possibly with Bladorthin), were famous for their wines, and there are other Dwarf houses in the east. I think it fits.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline kolibri8

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #8 am: 6. Nov 2016, 13:33 »
First and foremost, I do not mind the implemention of Dorwinion in the Mod as a faction, actually I find the idea quite interesting and intriguing. However I think your argumentation is a bit flawed.

For once Dorwinion is never mentioned as a independet sovereign realm, AFAIK it is only mentioned in the Third Age as source of Thranduil's wine in the Hobbit, and the region where Dorwinion is situated was part of Gondor during the reign of Hyarmendacil I (which is between 1015 and 1149 TA) according to Appendix A. So talking about Dorwinion as a canonical Kingdom is a bit overexaggerated.

Thus implementing Dowinion, would basicly mean the reconstuction of a hypothetical Faction based upon assumption and speculation of such scale where no one could truthfully claim it is "canonical". Again, I don't say Dorwinion shouldn't be added. Similarily to Angmar, Dorwinion could be a faction where the Mod-Team could be especially creative, without beeing "limited" by the source material, if they want to.

Regarding the Identity of King Bladorthin, there is a quite interesting and well written essay by Andreas Mohn a.k.a. Lalaith called "The mysterious king Bladorthin
and his political identity in the Third Age
".
In this essay Mohn lists six arguments for Bladorthin to not have been an Elf but a Man:
Zitat
  • The kings and kingdoms of the Light Elves are all accounted for. Bladorthin could then only have been a Dark Elf. But Dark Elves would not use names that are legible in Gnomish or Sindarin.
  • Elven kingdoms of the Third Age did not maintain armies to be equipped, so there would have been no need for Bladorthin to order a delivery of such size.
  • No Third Age Elf, however dark, would have ordered his arms from Dwarves.
  • The fall of a major Elf-king (long since dead) would have been remembered much more profoundly in the histories.
  • The custom of using Elvish names is known not only from Elves but also among the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor. They rarely occur as well among other peoples under the cultural influence of Westernesse (p.e. Girion Lord of Dale).
  • The indiscriminate use of the title "king", rather than "Elven-King" or "Dwarf-king", suggests that he was of the kind most familiar to the hobbitish author and the reader.
I find them quite convincing, so in my eyes Dorwinion could or better should be a Kingdom of Men. However it is quite likely that the Kingdom was destroyed with Bladorthins death. Otherwise Bladorthins heirs should have been mentioned at some point in the Legendarium, e.g. in the Hobbit, claiming the spears their forefather had ordered.

Furthermore I don't like the idea of Dwarves as part of the Kingdom. The East of Middle Earth streches far beyond the Sea of Rhûn and is largley unchartered (disregrarding some conceptional maps of Arda in the HoME, but even there Mordor and the Sea of Rhûn are quite centered in the whole Continent of Middle Earth). Nothing in the recorded Legendarium implies, that a large Quantity of Dwarves lives or lived in Dorwinion, as it is at most a hilly land with no mountains, which seem to be the home of choice for Dwarves. It is more likely, that they lived in the Mountains in the Far East e.g. the Orocarni. There might have been Dwarvish Traders, but not a large population, that would IMHO justify the addition of Dwarvish Units to the Faction.

Also the Heros: Of both Morwe and Nurwe is said that they stood behind in Cuivienen. If these maps are right: First Age Third Age this is quite far away from Dorwinion. I'm not saying that there are no Avari, but I find it unlikely, that the leaders of those elves who choosed to stay in Cuivinien, one day decided to migrate to Dorwinion.

Over all I like the idea of a mixed mannish-elvish faction, even though I think that the mannish part should outweight the elvish.

So, I like the basic idea, but IMO the concept itself needs some tweaks.
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Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #9 am: 6. Nov 2016, 15:31 »
Hello Veteran and thanks for your comment. As stated, I feel there would be a lot of creativity involved. You are right but it is all speculation--for instance we really don't know if Bladorthin's kingdom was destroyed or not. If we as players are getting hung up on the semantics of the area (Dorwinion) then we could call it Eastern Mercenaries or something.

You mention that they are not a sovereign realm. You are right when Gondor was younger and before the "great plague" broke out, Dorwinion was part of Gondor. But since then they relinquished their hold over that fiefdom. Dorwinion essentially belongs to themselves now.

Also, some more flaws from your statement: "I find it unlikely, that the leaders of those elves who choosed to stay in Cuivinien, one day decided to migrate to Dorwinion." They had to as the Sea of Helcar ceased to exist after the War of Wrath. So if they survived, they would have to migrate.

Also like I said earlier, the Dorwinion faction is made up of men and elves mostly. The Dwarfs are just an add on from the eastern mountains as you have stated. The reason why Dorwinion is a hybrid of man and elf is because like you said:

1. Gondor once ruled over Dorwinion.
2. Dorwinion at Tol Eressa and in Beleriand was an elf area that was famous for their wines as well and how it could make elves drunk.
3. How would men know the secrets to making elves pass out if there weren't any elves helping in making of the wines?

So in conclusion, Dorwinion, as I stated is more of a wealthy area that has many people fighting for them. Why else could they stay free from Sauron or anyone else's influence? And it is exaggerated either way to say Bladorthin's kingdom was destroyed or not. It is as exaggerated as the number of Dunedain we can buy in Edain or the fact that Imladris could produce an army during War of the Ring.

I have read the following essays and have heard much debate about Bladorthin's identity. Personally, Bladorthin is irrelevant to the discussion, he is here just to symbolize that there was a kingdom in the east that we don't know about that was probably near Dorwinion. We can assume either way that his kingdom was destroyed or not--however, Dorwinion, the Blue Wizards, the Avari, and the Dwarfs were all canonical forces in the east.

So I like how you said you would like to see this implemented, but I think the semantics of the area is what is causing the issue, but don't let that get you down. I think the name is recognizable and would allow people to understand that these are the forces of the east that the blue wizards came in contact with.

EDIT: Sorry I meant hello  kolibri8.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Nov 2016, 15:35 von DieWalküre »
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Namek

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #10 am: 6. Nov 2016, 16:52 »
Hello Everyone...

I think the Misty Mountains as three subfactions is essencial as an independent Rhun/Harad faction. In my opinion Rhun and Harad should be subfactions of East Kingdoms because they also battle without the influence of Sauron before the War of the Ring against Rohan and Gondor...

This is my sugestion to complement better the Edain Mod. After all, The Greatest BFME Mod EVER...

Thanks... Farewell...

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #11 am: 6. Nov 2016, 19:17 »
To kolibri8

I found what you were talking about and they do put Bladorthin as king of Dorwinion, and perhaps you are right that he was a man given that he died prematurely--personally given the etymology of his name and how he was originally suppose to be Gandalf, I wonder if he was a half-elf and he was known for great deeds by fighting with Gondor and Rohan against the Balcoth riders but died abruptly after choosing a mortal life.

However, that speculation is irrelevant. His kingdom survived and it is considered by many to be Dorwinion. I have more for you to read at this site. Though, it is in English.

http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000248;p=1

Read Thorin's post I think that solidifies my decision in incorporating this awesome faction to Edain given the Lore, mystery, and perfect place for the blue wizards and remaining denizens of the East.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline lord_ellessar

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #12 am: 7. Nov 2016, 13:36 »
Zitat
I know that edain have already chose their two new factions but it is always interesting to speak about some new concepts even if it won't be include,...

so i was speaking a really short time with dkbluewizard and i had already a nice concept, i think ...

     DORWINION

•1) The choice is yours:

             We know that Dorwinion in the fan culture is a region whit a part of elves and a majority of men, so at the beginning of the skirmish, the player could choose between the elves and the men, with particularities for each parts.
•2) The Elves:

             The beginning; at early game, dorwinion should be a faction more based on resources, the first units could be a men militia, the vineyards guards, a unit of five men only and at for example 500 instead of 200 but the resources buildings could be up, and gives 30 instead of 15 the dorwinion factions could recruit messenger that make peace for X time but that are high in price and disappear after a time it gives a real neutral effect of dorwinion faction... the barracks could recruit powerful elves units but high in price and at the oupost, a men outpost where you have elite men units and one hero. At the little oupost, they could choose between vineyards where you can recruits vineyards guards and that gives you money, a merchant outpost, there you can recruit neutral merchants, so enemy can't attack him and you have to sell it in enemy camp and, finally a little watchtower

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Thorns Guards and Bladorthin swords both elven elites units.
•3) The Men:

             The beginning; There, dorwinion would be a military faction focused on  numerous units, their units count 10 mens but they are less strong than elves but at a lower price. There at the outpost they recruit elite elves and one hero.

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Vintners court guards, and the prrt i don't know :P

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #13 am: 17. Dez 2016, 17:35 »
I agree with you Lord Elessar. Personally the Two blue wizards Romestamo and Mornhitar would fit here as well as many other "lords" Daeron would be an added choice for the elves, as well as Morwe and Nurwe. As for the men, Bladorthin II or someone, I don't know, they would have to be made up and that is what I was counting on Edain to do. Because the East is so mysterious, it is the perfect place for the Blue Wizards and any remaining things left in middle earth.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #14 am: 18. Dez 2016, 16:52 »
Maybe Diewalkure, you could merge this with the Dorwinion Proposal?
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.