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Autor Thema: A canonical Gandalf  (Gelesen 13098 mal)

dkbluewizard

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A canonical Gandalf
« am: 16. Dez 2016, 14:51 »
If I was to implement a system for Gandalf, I would do the same as Alatar. I would have his three stances, (Defense = Magic Bubble, Standard = Staff, and Aggressive = Glamdring).

Magic Bubble Gandalf has his magic bubble on and functions like BFME1 Gandalf (he can't be knocked back in this stance). The rest of his powers would be filled with the Dwarf summon powers, Narya, and a Heal like he did for Thorin/Pippin in the movies.

The aggressive stance would have a passive picture of Glamdring, and function like Anduriel or Orcrist for Thorin/Aragorn in one of the powers. Gandalf's powers would be more aggressive and faster in this stance. Such as sending a boulder rolling at enemies, summoning an eagle strike like radagast, and a power reset like WK (Your staff is broken).

The standard can be just regular Gandalf.

Hey, they're changing Galadriel to be more canonical, why not the G-man?

Also, I have heard that "OMG, balance, complex, not needed, etc." Look, ET is in the process of changing Galadriel and Cirdan to be more canonical and it is only fair that Gandalf be more canonical as well. People saying it is too complex are wrong given that micromanagment has always been a crucial part of gameplay, and balance, the wizards powers are weaker anyways, so a little extra abilities wouldn't make that much of a difference to Gandalf's role/function anyways.

Anyhow, tell me what you think and I'll do a Sauron 3rd stance topic later on. Thank you.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Julio229

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #1 am: 16. Dez 2016, 23:03 »
I can only agree with this suggestion! It helps making Gandalf more interesting to use, while keeping his powers from the original games, and giving him new ones!


Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #2 am: 16. Dez 2016, 23:52 »
Hi Blue! Thank you for having brought your suggestions here, in the official forum. Even though our opinions may differ, this topic could be an interesting occasion to discuss and maybe even to come up with a final compromise/concept. Let's see how the thread is developed.

As I anticipated at the beginning, my personal opinions differ consistently from yours here, speaking about Gandalf. Without embarking on long disquisitions, I will address the major problematics and relevant aspects. Given the own particularities of the hero involved, I'm not in favour of any significant change regarding Gandalf; that is, very little is to be overhauled when we deal with conceptual abilities or his very role. Whenever similar proposals were presented, I and the other Moderators always followed a precise line, with which I obviously and thoroughly agree.

Gandalf's concept has been extremely iconic since the very first chapter of the BFME series. The embodiment of the hegemonic hero by definition: sensational abilities combined with a very effective role in the faction. Powers that perfectly match with his mass-slayer nature. Thus it follows that there is not much left to add to his phenomenal concept, even in the multicoloured universe of the Edain Mod. I would say it's quite imperative that his current concept (and characterisation) be maintained as it is now (simple yet enough unique and effective), lest superfluous things be implemented without taking into consideration the ever-present boundaries of the game. Not because it's absolutely forbidden to propose new ideas, but rather for the fact that all the previously-mentioned premises suggest not to proceed that way.

Furthermore, I will also tell you why I think a stance system would be logical for heroes as Sauron and Galadriel, but not when it comes to Gandalf. Contrary to the Dark Lord and the Lady of Light, the Grey Wizard is one of the most active heroes in the game; he's therefore meant to battle with enemies directly in the frontline, and so his dynamic role well justifies the presence of such mighty abilities (just think about Word of Power). On the other hand, Sauron and Galadriel rely (as leaders) on supportive properties, with the purpose of supporting their troops and structures (their respective realms) from afar; it's then in this particular context that I agree that they could have the possibility to shift momentarily to a more aggressive characterisation (a stance that enables multiple new abilities). But on Gandalf's side, I don't personally see any viable scope for creating a digression from his paramount dynamic nature, as all his abilities already suffice to make him unique and conceptually complete.

But I can't deny that the Narya issue is something that has been puzzling me for quite some time; your proposal is thus quite tempting under that aspect. One side of me respects the customary proposition that wants Círdan to wield the Ring of Fire in the game (so that all the Three are available only to the two Elven factions), while the other just kicks against the idea of taking Narya away from his true owner during the War of the Ring: Mithrandir. Also, I always expressed myself in favour of particular stance systems for the greatest heroes of each faction; if not a structured system, at least a smart feature. Said that, I think we could try to come up with possible alternatives that imply the return of Narya to Gandalf (as the lore would demand) or other clever mechanics, provided that they strictly occupy a secondary position in the hero's concept.

Concerning Gandalf's current performance in the game, it's fair to say that most of the complaints I read are mainly focused on his abilities' effectiveness, instead of his conceptual properties. The fixing of the bug that affected the scaling of Magic improved things a bit, but I too admit it's still not enough. Henceforth, as I already replied to akin questions, there is something you ought to know: in the forthcoming 4.5 patch, Gandalf will be given a boost and so he will kind of retrieve his past formidable potential we are all fond of. I can't reveal much more, but may you be sure that a lot will change in this perspective as well (I tested it myself).

Hey, they're changing Galadriel to be more canonical, why not the G-man?

Also, I have heard that "OMG, balance, complex, not needed, etc." Look, ET is in the process of changing Galadriel and Cirdan to be more canonical and it is only fair that Gandalf be more canonical as well.

A just clarification: that concept of Galadriel is a proper concept/proposal of mine. The Edain Team has never stated anything official about it, nor do I know whether the proposal has been accepted or rejected (or if they are still pondering what to do). It's thus incorrect to state that they are going to implement those suggestions, even if you don't imagine how I wish they did. The only thing we can do for now is continuing to support it in every way possible. Nevertheless, I'm grateful that you deem it worthy of being compared to Sauron (I exactly thought about him in the conceiving of the ideas) or to Gandalf  ;)

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #3 am: 17. Dez 2016, 02:40 »
To Diewalkure,

Thank you for your kind post. I am glad we always seem to meet and have educated and classy discussions.

With that stated, I don't argue against the charge of Gandalf being a mass slayer, yes he is very good at this and has already fulfilled that role. However, as you stated, my stance system does fix the problem of Narya being implemented to his character. Gandalf per the lore is not just a mass slayer, but he is also a building destroyer, and hero killer. Examples of this are shown with him using fireworks on enemies, destroying bridges, and slaying Balrog of Moria and Great Goblin.

I am not asking for Gandalf to be all powerful. I could have said "Make him more lore worthy when he is the White, make it so that no physical weapon can harm him." I am not saying you're accusing me of such words, but I am wanting to see more lore bases--and really, something new for Gandalf that is complimentary to his Maiar abilities. As it stands, I feel he is just an old wizard from the Hobbit and not the Maia canonical being that we all know and love.

I mean, I guess we could have Cirdan give the ring to Gandalf, but then how does that work for the Gondor faction? Also, giving Narya to Gandalf would have to reset his powers to something different anyways.

So to incorporate the lore, movie, and game--I feel the stance system compliments the essence of Gandalf's character in its entirety without taking away his mass slayer role.

Like you said, I loved your Galadriel proposal and I will do the same for Sauron. I mean lets be honest, Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf, and Sauron are the most powerful beings of the Third Age, I think a little versatility in powers isn't that much of a big deal for coders.

If this system is too complex, then why not allow him to switch powers by mounting his  firework cart, then maybe some of the powers and Narya could be implemented into that. Only thing though, I feel the firework cart would look kind of dorky in Edain mod.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #4 am: 17. Dez 2016, 11:16 »
At the moment Gandalf seems to be lacking 2 facets in my view, the 'bubble' he deploys in Fellowship of the Ring, and Narya. Firstly I would not want Cirdan to lose the ring, as he did have it.
Secondly I oppose a three stance system, as I feel that would lead to abilities for the sake of taking up a slot; and overlap. The problem with your 3 stance proposal is to me it causes massive overlap with the spellbook (Such as the Eagles) and it makes Gandalf into someone who can do anything; and takes away from the fact heroes are intended to have roles, and this is a concession that must be made for gameplay in the base mod; submods can afford to offer more complexity as new users won't see them, and they do not affect the balance of the main mod. In addition it then seems unfair that if Gandalf gets more than one stance, why doesn't Sauroman, why not Elrond, why not the Angmar Witch-King and hence the line has to be drawn somewhere.
 I think at best, rather than changing the stance give him an expanded ability set, by that I mean one of the slots is an arrow. Have him unlock Narya at level 2, move lighting sword to level 3, and grant him the bubble at level 5 as a toggle ability (He could always have it on), he can always have the bubble on but the toggle has a cooldown. He moves slower but has higher defence.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Gandalf7000

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #5 am: 17. Dez 2016, 14:59 »
At the moment Gandalf seems to be lacking 2 facets in my view, the 'bubble' he deploys in Fellowship of the Ring, and Narya. Firstly I would not want Cirdan to lose the ring, as he did have it.
Secondly I oppose a three stance system, as I feel that would lead to abilities for the sake of taking up a slot; and overlap. The problem with your 3 stance proposal is to me it causes massive overlap with the spellbook (Such as the Eagles) and it makes Gandalf into someone who can do anything; and takes away from the fact heroes are intended to have roles, and this is a concession that must be made for gameplay in the base mod; submods can afford to offer more complexity as new users won't see them, and they do not affect the balance of the main mod. In addition it then seems unfair that if Gandalf gets more than one stance, why doesn't Sauroman, why not Elrond, why not the Angmar Witch-King and hence the line has to be drawn somewhere.
 I think at best, rather than changing the stance give him an expanded ability set, by that I mean one of the slots is an arrow. Have him unlock Narya at level 2, move lighting sword to level 3, and grant him the bubble at level 5 as a toggle ability (He could always have it on), he can always have the bubble on but the toggle has a cooldown. He moves slower but has higher defence.
This is a good suggestion. I also think that all faction leaders should have additional troop/building supportive ability.

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #6 am: 17. Dez 2016, 15:44 »
To Lordoflinks and Gandalf7000,

I understand that you guys feel that this is unfair to other heroes, but let us not forget the Mouth of Sauron, Mordor Witch King, and Sauron himself with Power of Ages past all have differing stances/abilities that don't overpower them or change their role in Edain mod. This has to be done for Gandalf as he is the most important good character in the fight against Sauron.

I don't necessarily disagree with the fact that all Ringheroes should have more than one slot ability. I actually would be open to Gandalf having one ability that is an arrow to another set of abilities. If the stances themselves are bugging you, then I would go with your suggestion of the arrow.

We are all in agreement here, Gandalf needs Narya as that is canonical, and he needs something more since he is the greatest good in middle earth during the Third Age, heck, he did wrestle with the Dark Lord (Sauron) at Amon Hen and succeeded in protecting Frodo.

So we need something new, be it the stance system, an arrow with another set of powers like MOS, WK, or Sauron Ancient Powered--it is needed and the Edain Team should take this into consideration.

Now how do we get this suggestion some notoriety?
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #7 am: 17. Dez 2016, 23:40 »
Thank you for your kind post. I am glad we always seem to meet and have educated and classy discussions.

I'm very glad to discuss with you equally. This is what Modding Union is all about.

Ok, I read all the contributions presented so far and may I also thank you again for expressing your personal opinions on the matter. Gandalf seems to be a quite complete character in itself, but it's always great to know that he often manages to attract a lot of attention from the Community; he's one of the most iconic characters of LOTR, and so I perfectly understand why many people are concerned about his overall performance.

Let's start with saying that I can see the purposes and the intent of having him be more unique than he currently is, but we have to get to grips with the actual state of things: Gandalf is a tough topic to deal with in the first place. Just to follow in the footsteps of the comparison we made between him and heroes like Sauron and Galadriel, I would like to explain myself more properly. The point is that Sauron and Galadriel are the true leaders of their respective factions: they are at the centre of all (Sauron, in particular) and have the absolute duty to support their whole realm; thus, here it is the right ground around which I find it legitimate to ask for more versatility and uniqueness, considering also that they are mainly endowed with supportive properties.

On the other hand, Gandalf is a kind of exception. He does stand in Gondor as the mightiest hero of all, but the interesting aspect is that he's not the leader (military and authoritative leadership) of his faction and he can't consequently dispose of supportive abilities (his role is fixed). I'm not at all questioning this type of characterisation, as it shows well his lore-accurate pilgrim-like connotation; a powerful wizard that wanders throughout Middle-earth and offers his help to whom he visits. What I want to point out is that these exact elements inevitably force us to operate within clear boundaries. I will also try to summarise other significant arguments we should have in mind very carefully.

1. Gandalf's role is fixed and it is the one of a mass-slayer. His formidable abilities already serve well for that goal and are already very much unique.
2. Adding to the previous point, his concept has been kept the same since BFME1. It remained unaltered because it's extremely iconic.
3. Gondor's Gandalf is the Gandalf of the War of the Ring, thus leaving aside concepts or other aspects from the Hobbit trilogy (his Hobbit-like connotation is present via the Dwarven spellbook).
4. Given his greatly dynamic power, I think we could do without the idea of an aggressive stance or of a regular one. This would lead us directly and solely towards defence.

Said that, I eventually believe that the only possibility to add something new is centred around Narya only. Gandalf will gain back the Ring of Fire (thus making each of the Three available in three different factions). Beside the adherence to the lore (which I obviously cherish very much), Narya would help us a lot in regards of the fourth argument I listed above: since Narya is the Ring of endurance and resilience, it can be easily linked to defence. Contrary to Vilya and Nenya, which grant extraordinary powers over vast lands, Narya is more bound to a personal scale (the personal strength of its bearer). I view this as a solid ground to start from. Then, speaking about the very implementation of such feature, I would suggest the current sixth slot of Gandalf's Palantír of powers (now used for the normal stances) be replaced with Narya. I thought about two different options so far.

  • Passive: Narya is implemented as a passive ability, allowing Gandalf to activate his magical barrier in times of needs, alongside enhancing his armour and resistance against Magic and monsters (and heroes too?).
  • Active: Gandalf activates his magical shield for a given amount of time and infuses surrounding troops with hope and resistance.



This is really a first draft of mine. I still need to know how his magical shield functions exactly (in the current version of the game) and we will surely have to go a bit more into details, but I like how the debate has progressed. I know that some of you might expect more, but I sincerely find this a very just compromise that complies with the premises stated in the previous passages of this post. Moreover, I guess we should also come up with a different proposal that envisages Gandalf's turning into Gandalf the White: how should Narya change in that perspective? Feel free to forward your own opinions.
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Dez 2016, 00:04 von DieWalküre »

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #8 am: 18. Dez 2016, 00:14 »
I agree a thousand times with DieWalküre's proposal of linking Narya to the bubble shield. Could Wizard Blast be made into a ranged attack, while still keeping the sword as a melee attack, to free the level one slot for this ability? 
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #9 am: 18. Dez 2016, 01:21 »
To Diewalkure and LordofLinks

I like the proposal so far, we needed something new, I don't see an error though coming up with Gandalf the White power. Narya can remain with his upgraded form. I can get behind this without asking for fireworks on one condition, Glamdring be a passive power as well +50% Passive damage (Like Orcrist or Anduriel) but can be clicked on to do the lightning sword.

I think the Narya bubble, and the passive Glamdring ability enhance Gandalf enough to warrant the purchasing of him and that would allow us to keep all the powers as is, it would give us something new, and Gandalf would feel like his BFME 1 persona.

I see this as becoming a really good discussion and I think we have all come a long way. Is anyone still interested in his firework cart being an additional mount choice?
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #10 am: 18. Dez 2016, 02:23 »
I don't think it's possible to have an ability be passive and active at the same time. I guess Lightning Sword already gives the sense of Glamdring's might; apart from that, as I pointed out earlier, his abilities are enough effective and so I wouldn't add anything more in respect of offensive aspects.

Is anyone still interested in his firework cart being an additional mount choice?

Albeit being lore/film-accurate, I think it would be very out-of-place, were it to be inserted in the actual game.

P.S. I will move this proposal to the Gondor Suggestions board in due time, as that is the proper place.

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #11 am: 18. Dez 2016, 02:42 »
Diewalkure, that sounds good. However, I do think you can have a passive and active power at the same time, Aragorn when he is crowned king gets Anduriel and it does passive and when clicked on it does a blademaster.

I feel if this simple addition was added to Gandalf while not taking away his lightning sword. I think he would be perfect. He wouldn't be that powerful still anyways. Sauron would still destroy him and so would Saruman.

Gandalf the White however, should be the most dangerous on the battlefield outside of Sauron himself. And I feel Sauron is the best hero in the game (as Edain Wiki suggests) but I do feel Gandalf the White should be number 2. I mean I like the blue wizards obviously, but I know lore wise this is the way things are in the books.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #12 am: 18. Dez 2016, 03:11 »
Most dangerous with abilities that is, then the Witch-King can come along and break Gandalf's staff with his hour.  :D
To summerise would it be fair to say the conclusions of this thread are thus:
Make wizard blast into a ranged attack and have Narya (Passive)/ Bubble (Active) as the level 1 ability and the Lighting Sword ability into a passive/ active ability as well.
If we were to follow suite with the above I would be favour of switching Mount and the Sword around so the player does not get two active/passive abilities in a row.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #13 am: 18. Dez 2016, 06:42 »
Is wizard blast going to be a ranged attack for all wizards or just Gandalf? I don't think Gandalf the Grey's wizard blast should be ranged, but Gandalf the WHITE should have a ranged wizard's blast since that is what he did to Saruman.

Yeah, the WK breaking Gandalf's staff was never in the book. If we were to incorporate all the powers of Gandalf from the book, you would need a system like I originally suggested (which I would still be fine with as I don't think it would change his role. I mean Sauron's role isn't changed).

But to please you guys mainly, I conceded to at least Narya being passive/active, and Glamdring being passive/active. I would agree with this, and I would agree with a long ranged wizard blast for Gandalf the White (It also kinda shows how Gandalf the White wrestled with Sauron at Amon Hen).
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #14 am: 18. Dez 2016, 07:42 »
I meant the WK statement as a joke, but also to point out the more aggressive abilities a hero has they more they become dependant on them for the sake of balance, and as such the WK is a hard counter to one such hero. I do think the moment in the movie was a wonderful scene that heightened suspense, and made Gandalf appear less all powerful. 
I am just trying to figure out a way to have all of Gandalf's abilities on one planetir without the need for 'arrow' abilities.
Perhaps a stance system could be used, that toggles his attack between a wizard blast (Saruman's basic attack) and his sword. Not changing his abilities (He could still use lighting sword in staff mode), but allowing him to alternate between slow wizard blasts that kill a lot of enemies and inflict bonus damage on buildings, or fast sword attacks that deal damage to a single target.
EDIT: I've just seen that DieWalküre has mentioned we can replace the stance slot with Narya, which allows us to keep Wizard Blast as an ability, so that would work best, in my opinion.
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Dez 2016, 07:47 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine