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Autor Thema: A canonical Gandalf  (Gelesen 13104 mal)

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #15 am: 18. Dez 2016, 08:02 »
LordofLinks, yes that is what Diewalkure and I were saying. We hoped the stance change would be replaced with Narya passive/bubble active power, and Glamdring be a passive/lightning sword ability. If these two were implemented, Gandalf's role wouldn't change and he would have the feel of something new!
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #16 am: 18. Dez 2016, 08:34 »
I apologise for the misunderstanding. I think now would be a good time to put together a formal proposal, and I shall leave that to people who have a better idea of what is going on as clearly I can't read  :D
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #17 am: 18. Dez 2016, 11:26 »
Are you 100% sure, Gandalf doesn't already have the bubble. Because he had in previous versions (it was an automated ability that triggered if Gandalf took more than a certain amount of damage in one instance).
Furthermore, I could write extensively why I don't like things like random stance systems and that in gameplay terms, historical accuracy doesn't exist while being a hero who's all over the place, i.e. a mess, does. But that is not really important.

The thing is, Gandalf proposals are not new, and many of them boiled down to the idea of expanding Gandalf's array of spells to the facets, he as a character had and which aren't represented in the game. Long story short: There was not a single change, in fact Gandalf got changed back to his of BfME roster of spells. Seriously though, there is a reason why Ealendril's avatar is Gandalf. ;)

My last point is basically, that this whole "make everything canonical" is basically an idea, destroying it's own goal: A BfME game that is truely canonical would above all else be the epitome of boring and strangely quite uninspired, too. Iconic heroes like Galadriel and Sauron would probably be fortress upgrades, funny (and gamelaywise extremely interesting) stuff like "Power of Past Ages" as well as even the fact that Imladris fight in the War of the Ring at all needed to be removed. What I'm trying to say, is that this "canonising" completely screws over the game. (And in fact already has at some points, where fairly unique, yet, let's say, too "colourfull" or "silly" concepts or units where (practically) removed.)
Thus, I'm quite content with the current Gandalf, I can only repeat myself and add, that the only change, I see happening, is to add a buttonless ability that gives a minor bonus, like fear resistance to surrounding troops.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Sorry for any typos, I wrote this on a mobile phone.

OakenShield224

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #18 am: 18. Dez 2016, 12:22 »
I feel like Gandalf the Grey was more of the wanderer who'd need extra protection from the dangers of Middle Earth while Gandalf the White was usually with other people who he inspired. Maybe the bubble shield could be for Grey and would temporarily give bonus armour and knockback resistance. When he becomes White, the armour bonus is replaced with some sort of temporary buff to surrounding units to symbolise how Narya inspired people.

Slawek56703

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #19 am: 18. Dez 2016, 13:52 »
I can see Gandalf with Narya stances to show that he is send to this world to help people of Middle Earth win over Sauron but i have diffrent idea from Edain 3 Hero Submod Gandalf had there Narya power that buffed others when he ecome White it was improved and he could even  join powers of The One Ring and Narya  on his Ring forms . I show my idea concidering stances and Narya .

Gandalf Grey

Defence Stance : Additional troops on medium range get 15% armor
Standart Stance: troops get 75% immunity to Fire and Magic attacks
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on medium range get 15% damage

Gandalf White

Defence Stance : Additional troops on medium range get 15% armor
Standart Stance: troops get 75% immunity to Fire and Magic attacks + fear and Terror resistance
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on medium range get 15% damage
 
Gandalf Challenge Master

Defence Stance : Additional troops on big range get 30% armor
Standart Stance: troops and heroes get 100% immunity to Fire and Magic attacks + fear and Terror resistance + heals them all time
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on big range get 30% damage

Gandalf Corrupted

Defence Stance : Additional Enemy troops on big range loose 30% armor
Standart Stance: enemy troops and heroes loose leardership on big range + they are 100% more vulnerable to Fire and Magic attacks, fear and Terror  + get ittle damaged near Gandalf
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on big range loose 30% damage




 

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #20 am: 18. Dez 2016, 16:41 »
Slawek56703, that is actually a very interesting idea for Gandalf and shows his role. I would expand the stance system to not only include troops, but Gandalf himself. I think if those stances with the passive Glamdring/active Lightning Sword, would be great additions to Gandalf.

Melkor Bauglir, Edain has gotten most the canon right in this mod. I don't necessarily think that going by the canon would be boring as that is what Edain has consistently (for the most part) done for many of the characters. This is why they had to change things around sometimes.

I think you are going a little extreme saying that "Power of Ages Past" would have to be removed, as Sauron could take a physical form in the third age. See the letter from Tolkien or his interview on what would happen had the nazgul reached Frodo in Mount Doom. Also Gollum saw his black hand which only had four fingers on it--and Galadriel went out and fought (example bringing down the walls of Dol Gulder). So I think the canon does not "screw over the game." It enhances it.

I am proud of how attention to detail Edain is, and that is why I seek something new for Gandalf, as he is missing some crucial parts to his character. Like I said before to Diewalkure, my goal is not to make Gandalf dominate the game. If I wanted that I would have asked for him to be immune to all physical harm like in the books.

If we are counting gameplay and how Gandalf is in the cinema/books he is missing: A bonus from Glamdring (best sword of the third age), Narya (one of the best rings of the Third Age), he's missing a healing power (did this on Lord of the Eagles in book, he did this on Thorin and Pippin in the movie), firework powers (I guess one could say this is covered in the Erebor faction though), etc.

So there are many things left out that are crucial to Gandalf's character. Namely Narya and Glamdring are the most important that is why I advocate for those. It is explicit in the novel and movies that those two items are what make Gandalf special as he was the wander, the one that stay true to his purpose. That is why his Lightning Sword needs a passive ability and he needs Narya somehow. That is why Diewalkure and I are in agreement on this. If these two things came to fruition, Gandalf's character would be completed. We are not asking him to become the most OP character ever, that is reserved for Sauron.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #21 am: 18. Dez 2016, 16:56 »
Well, I see most (not all!) things differently. I also do not really see the point in arguing about this; since we start from different axioms, we can't logically agree. Therefore good luck in designing Gandalf, Slawek56703's ideas actually didn't sound that bad. ;)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #22 am: 18. Dez 2016, 18:26 »
Well I think we can come to a consensus.

Gandalf needs a boost for Glamdring and Narya. So lets run with Slawek56703's ideas.

The stance icon can be Narya and it can be used as he said. The Lightning Sword could remain the same and have a +50% damage boost (passive) to Gandalf. I think this is the best option.

Personally, since Glamdring was wielded by Turgon and was probably the best sword of the Third Age (it kills Balrogs). I honestly feel it should do 100% damage, but I feel that would not balance the game. That is why I say 50% same as Anduriel.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #23 am: 18. Dez 2016, 19:00 »
Hi Melkor, it's great to hear from you again.

The thing is, Gandalf proposals are not new, and many of them boiled down to the idea of expanding Gandalf's array of spells to the facets, he as a character had and which aren't represented in the game. Long story short: There was not a single change, in fact Gandalf got changed back to his of BfME roster of spells. Seriously though, there is a reason why Ealendril's avatar is Gandalf. ;)

Of course, I'm IMMENSELY aware of the colossal responsibility of proposing any change regarding Ealendril's favourite character  :D

No, really, I myself closed similar topics in the past, as some users had asked for radical replacements of Gandalf's abilities or even suggested he be moved to other factions. I think we all agree that his concept is already well conceived and ought to remain unaltered as it has always done since BFME1. But I strongly believe that Narya and that sixth slot at the top of his Palantír offer us the right ground to develop our suggestions, due to the fact that the two aspects entrench each other deeply; the hero would thus be granted a new and clever feature, without disrupting anything that was and has always been. I will nonetheless keep on trying to maintain the ideas as balanced and respectful of the game's boundaries as possible. Gandalf's five effective abilities are still absolutely paramount. Yet I find this occasion a just occasion to make an attempt, taking also into account the arguments provided by the lore and by the reasonings we have made so far. Just to give a proper transposition in German: der richtige Grund und der richtige Fall  ;)

Yes, I think the magical-barrier mechanism of Gandalf is already implemented in the game via an automatic process. Bearing in mind that we could always focus on other types of defensive displays or on the hope-infusing nature of Narya even more, tying that mechanism to a 'manual' choice might be interesting anyway. Regardless of our differing opinions, I hope you'll continue to participate in the suggesting phase too.

Garlodur

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #24 am: 1. Jan 2017, 23:39 »
I would like to share my ideas on the structure that DieWalküre started here. This contribution expands the influence of Narya, the Ring of Fire, in Gandalf's arsenal, or at least aims to make it more explicit.


I believe that all Gandalf is lacking at this moment in gameplay is a sort of supporting role. I do not intend to attribute this role to such extent that the division of leaderships in Gondor/Arnor is compromised. Therefore I see Slawek56703's stance system too complicated and overwhelming and would require more balancing over the width of said factions.  Wizards in the universe of Middle-Earth are supposed to have a guiding role as such that they try to influence its principal inhabitants and important actors to act one way or another, with the goal of fighting Sauron. Think of Thorin, Bilbo, Frodo, Theoden, Denethor, Aragorn, and I could continue forever. Other wizards slacked in this role, but there are sufficient arguments to how Gandalf played his part exactly so (the most important being his return as Gandalf the White when he lost his physical form of Gandalf the Grey).

My point is that Gandalf has influenced Middle-Earth more indirectly than directly as his current role as mass-slayer suggest. In addition I believe this is where we can implement Narya as well in his concept. I am not asking here for a large revamp of his abilities but rather something that streamlines his existing character interpretation to a slight supportive aspect. I am of the belief that Gandalf's use of Narya was very much in line with his inherent magical capacities and personality, meaning that he drew no great power from the Ring of Fire other than using it for preserving Middle-Earth. Arguably, this is what the Elven Rings were made for, in order for the Elves to recreate Valinor in Middle/Earth.


In this interpretation I would like to continue on DieWalküre's suggestion, in order to give Narya a minor role in supporting mostly units (perhaps heroes too). I think the stances slot at the top of the Palantír would be the most fitting place because Gandalf makes use of magic in either a defensive or offensive sense, although the slot would be used like an ability rather than a stance (if technically possible).

  • Level 1: Passive: Narya is implemented as a passive ability, allowing Gandalf to activate his magical barrier in times of needs enhancing his armour when receiving high amounts of damage.
  • Level 5: Active: Gandalf infuses surrounding troops with hope and fear resistance for a given amount of time.
  • Level 10: Active: Gandalf infuses surrounding troops with hope, fear resistance and increased magic resistance for a given amount of time .

As such, the ability is scaled and becomes more powerful with levels: it retains the passive effect at all levels, while the active switch is only implemented at level 5 and further improved at level 10. When the ability is activated, the passive function does not work for its duration, or during the cooldown. This way the ability is not too powerful at level 1, and links its usefulness to either a defensive or offensive situation, simulating the power of the Ring of Fire at different tactical moments in battle.

In terms of balance of supportive powers this ability has, I see that fear resistance is not unique in the Gondor faction with Faramir and Aragorn, or in Arnor with Arvedui and Araphant. Thus, a temporary implementation would suit best Gandalf's efforts in defending Minas Tirith at one point, but not taking over the role of most outstanding leader in the faction. The increased resistance to magic damage is a valuable addition that can be attributed to Gandalf alone, being a wizard amongst a faction of Men. Then again, Gondor is at a disadvantage against evil factions that have tons of debuffs before dealing pure magic damage: now Gondor has an answer to those moments of overwhelming strength. Concerning the passive, I would suggest a description to be written so that people know under which conditions this 'bubble shield' is activated, for as of now it is not very clear.

With regards to other versions of Gandalf: when the Grey turns into the White, nothing changes apart from the current magic damage increase and reduced ability cooldown (which also affects the proposed ability change). There would be some changes to the Corrupted Gandalf, such as increased fire resistance for nearby friendlies when the proposed ability is activated so that his indiscriminate rage is contained in terms of 'friendly fire'. Gandalf te Challenge Master however, incorporates a leadership of healing aura to nearby friendlies and heroes in the passive function of the proposed ability, and upon activation the magic resistance is further increased. These are still small suggestions I could edit into making the whole ability a passive leadership skill that at all times incorporates the combined power of the Ring of Fire and the One Ring, with the particular 'hidden' abilities that Gandalf the Corrupted and Gandalf the Challenge Master have at their disposal.

I hope this concept was suggestive and clear enough, as many points are being addressed. I would gladly clear up any uncertainties or answer questions.

Thanks for reading,
Garlodur


dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #25 am: 2. Jan 2017, 03:20 »
So I guess everyone cares about Narya but not Glamdring, weird...
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #26 am: 2. Jan 2017, 08:15 »
So I guess everyone cares about Narya but not Glamdring, weird...
I think it is because in the Gondor fraction, seeing as it is set in the wotr, he already has it. Personally I am in favour of it being an ability for Arnor, at least.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #27 am: 2. Jan 2017, 18:47 »
No I am saying that the Lightning Sword should have a +50% damage boost passively (like Aragorn's Anduriel) I feel that doesn't change Gandalf's character at all, and makes him more canoncial, I mean he literally has the same abilities. I also feel Thorin should get a passive +50% damage bonus when he acquires Orcrist on his Exiled King Passive abilitiy.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Garlodur

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #28 am: 2. Jan 2017, 22:53 »
Look dkbluewizard, the thing is that what you call the issue of Glamdring is not an issue in the Edain Mod currently. As lordoflinks says, Gandalf in the time of the War of the Ring has Glamdring at his disposal at all times. Yes, in the Arnor faction linked to Gondor this proves as a bit of a problem, being not in the correct time period (you could imagine the sword he carries to be a regular sword though, if that comforts you). However, until there is a concept sufficiently established among a large part of the community that convinces the entire ET that has always opposed changes to Gandalf (for reasons often enough noted), this Glamdring issue will not be solved.

Yet, instead of suggesting such an idea of reforming Gandalf´s use of Glamdring, you hammer on the passive damage boost. This is not the simple reform you consider it to be.
In terms of sword lore there would be many things to say on the topic but my opinion is that Andúril, Glamdring and Orcrist are simple excellent swords with their strengths already represented by the fact that they are wielded by heroes of such caliber. On top of that, in the lore everyone expects Andúril in the hands of Aragorn to be the only thing to influence Sauron, as a curse if you would. Glamdring and Orcrist, on the other side, are recognised as great swords nonetheless without being attributed a further goal.

In terms of game design, balance and hero roles, Aragorn needs the damage boost from Andúril to emphasise his role as hero killer with the 'Blade Master' ability. Gandalf and Thorin respectively have no need of such a damage increase because they are not primarily hero killers. If you would want to make the change in damage show, still, for whatever sake you believe in, then both Gandalf and Thorin's base damage before receiving their swords would need to be a lot lower in order to compensate for balance issues that arise, which in turn conjures up more balance issues.

Now you have been answered I would like to hear your opinion on my Narya proposal.  :)

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #29 am: 2. Jan 2017, 23:57 »
Since Narya gives us the great scope for returning the very Ring of Fire to Gandalf and for endowing the hero with a smart feature, I find it appropriate that we're necessarily focusing on it. On the other hand, Gondor's Gandalf has already had Glamdring since the events of the Hobbit and the sword is thus a part of the character already: it would be hard to give Glamdring more prominence, without altering Gandalf's design (the very Lightning Sword does represent Glamdring's might very well). I would nonetheless like to assure you all again that Gandalf's spells will be much stronger in the next patch; particularly, as I recently had the opportunity to test Lightning Sword (the coincidence), that ability will indeed partly retrieve its past splendour as in BFME1 (against structures too). It's an enough evocative homage to Turgon's sword, isn't it?



Going back to Narya, thank you for sharing your ideas, Garlodur. I won't add any additional thought on the matter yet though, as I and another Beta Tester are conceiving a new proposal, which aims to find a compromise among our views (always based on my first draft) and to make the concept technically feasible in the first place. We'll obviously subject any 'final' idea to everyone's judgment. Then, I will reorder the thread and translate it in German to bring our suggestions in the German forum. I just ask for some patience, as the forum is very active these days (fortunately) and I'm also working on other concepts to take care of.

We're nonetheless doing a marvellous work and the final outcome will certainly be valuable. Thank you for the endurance shown so far, especially because this tough topic absolutely requires a very staunch resolution to develop new solutions for the game  :)