[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Gondor Suggestions

A canonical Gandalf

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dkbluewizard:
Slawek56703, that is actually a very interesting idea for Gandalf and shows his role. I would expand the stance system to not only include troops, but Gandalf himself. I think if those stances with the passive Glamdring/active Lightning Sword, would be great additions to Gandalf.

Melkor Bauglir, Edain has gotten most the canon right in this mod. I don't necessarily think that going by the canon would be boring as that is what Edain has consistently (for the most part) done for many of the characters. This is why they had to change things around sometimes.

I think you are going a little extreme saying that "Power of Ages Past" would have to be removed, as Sauron could take a physical form in the third age. See the letter from Tolkien or his interview on what would happen had the nazgul reached Frodo in Mount Doom. Also Gollum saw his black hand which only had four fingers on it--and Galadriel went out and fought (example bringing down the walls of Dol Gulder). So I think the canon does not "screw over the game." It enhances it.

I am proud of how attention to detail Edain is, and that is why I seek something new for Gandalf, as he is missing some crucial parts to his character. Like I said before to Diewalkure, my goal is not to make Gandalf dominate the game. If I wanted that I would have asked for him to be immune to all physical harm like in the books.

If we are counting gameplay and how Gandalf is in the cinema/books he is missing: A bonus from Glamdring (best sword of the third age), Narya (one of the best rings of the Third Age), he's missing a healing power (did this on Lord of the Eagles in book, he did this on Thorin and Pippin in the movie), firework powers (I guess one could say this is covered in the Erebor faction though), etc.

So there are many things left out that are crucial to Gandalf's character. Namely Narya and Glamdring are the most important that is why I advocate for those. It is explicit in the novel and movies that those two items are what make Gandalf special as he was the wander, the one that stay true to his purpose. That is why his Lightning Sword needs a passive ability and he needs Narya somehow. That is why Diewalkure and I are in agreement on this. If these two things came to fruition, Gandalf's character would be completed. We are not asking him to become the most OP character ever, that is reserved for Sauron.

Melkor Bauglir:
Well, I see most (not all!) things differently. I also do not really see the point in arguing about this; since we start from different axioms, we can't logically agree. Therefore good luck in designing Gandalf, Slawek56703's ideas actually didn't sound that bad. ;)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

dkbluewizard:
Well I think we can come to a consensus.

Gandalf needs a boost for Glamdring and Narya. So lets run with Slawek56703's ideas.

The stance icon can be Narya and it can be used as he said. The Lightning Sword could remain the same and have a +50% damage boost (passive) to Gandalf. I think this is the best option.

Personally, since Glamdring was wielded by Turgon and was probably the best sword of the Third Age (it kills Balrogs). I honestly feel it should do 100% damage, but I feel that would not balance the game. That is why I say 50% same as Anduriel.

Walküre:
Hi Melkor, it's great to hear from you again.


--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 18. Dez 2016, 11:26 ---The thing is, Gandalf proposals are not new, and many of them boiled down to the idea of expanding Gandalf's array of spells to the facets, he as a character had and which aren't represented in the game. Long story short: There was not a single change, in fact Gandalf got changed back to his of BfME roster of spells. Seriously though, there is a reason why Ealendril's avatar is Gandalf. ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

Of course, I'm IMMENSELY aware of the colossal responsibility of proposing any change regarding Ealendril's favourite character  :D

No, really, I myself closed similar topics in the past, as some users had asked for radical replacements of Gandalf's abilities or even suggested he be moved to other factions. I think we all agree that his concept is already well conceived and ought to remain unaltered as it has always done since BFME1. But I strongly believe that Narya and that sixth slot at the top of his Palantír offer us the right ground to develop our suggestions, due to the fact that the two aspects entrench each other deeply; the hero would thus be granted a new and clever feature, without disrupting anything that was and has always been. I will nonetheless keep on trying to maintain the ideas as balanced and respectful of the game's boundaries as possible. Gandalf's five effective abilities are still absolutely paramount. Yet I find this occasion a just occasion to make an attempt, taking also into account the arguments provided by the lore and by the reasonings we have made so far. Just to give a proper transposition in German: der richtige Grund und der richtige Fall  ;)

Yes, I think the magical-barrier mechanism of Gandalf is already implemented in the game via an automatic process. Bearing in mind that we could always focus on other types of defensive displays or on the hope-infusing nature of Narya even more, tying that mechanism to a 'manual' choice might be interesting anyway. Regardless of our differing opinions, I hope you'll continue to participate in the suggesting phase too.

Garlodur:
I would like to share my ideas on the structure that DieWalküre started here. This contribution expands the influence of Narya, the Ring of Fire, in Gandalf's arsenal, or at least aims to make it more explicit.


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 17. Dez 2016, 23:40 ---I will also try to summarise other significant arguments we should have in mind very carefully.

1. Gandalf's role is fixed and it is the one of a mass-slayer. His formidable abilities already serve well for that goal and are already very much unique.
2. Adding to the previous point, his concept has been kept the same since BFME1. It remained unaltered because it's extremely iconic.
3. Gondor's Gandalf is the Gandalf of the War of the Ring, thus leaving aside concepts or other aspects from the Hobbit trilogy (his Hobbit-like connotation is present via the Dwarven spellbook).
4. Given his greatly dynamic power, I think we could do without the idea of an aggressive stance or of a regular one. This would lead us directly and solely towards defence.

Said that, I eventually believe that the only possibility to add something new is centred around Narya only. Gandalf will gain back the Ring of Fire (thus making each of the Three available in three different factions). Beside the adherence to the lore (which I obviously cherish very much), Narya would help us a lot in regards of the fourth argument I listed above: since Narya is the Ring of endurance and resilience, it can be easily linked to defence. Contrary to Vilya and Nenya, which grant extraordinary powers over vast lands, Narya is more bound to a personal scale (the personal strength of its bearer). I view this as a solid ground to start from. Then, speaking about the very implementation of such feature, I would suggest the current sixth slot of Gandalf's Palantír of powers (now used for the normal stances) be replaced with Narya. I thought about two different options so far.


* Passive: Narya is implemented as a passive ability, allowing Gandalf to activate his magical barrier in times of needs, alongside enhancing his armour and resistance against Magic and monsters (and heroes too?).
* Active: Gandalf activates his magical shield for a given amount of time and infuses surrounding troops with hope and resistance.


This is really a first draft of mine. I still need to know how his magical shield functions exactly (in the current version of the game) and we will surely have to go a bit more into details, but I like how the debate has progressed. I know that some of you might expect more, but I sincerely find this a very just compromise that complies with the premises stated in the previous passages of this post. Moreover, I guess we should also come up with a different proposal that envisages Gandalf's turning into Gandalf the White: how should Narya change in that perspective? Feel free to forward your own opinions.

--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 18. Dez 2016, 19:00 ---I think we all agree that his concept is already well conceived and ought to remain unaltered as it has always done since BFME1. But I strongly believe that Narya and that sixth slot at the top of his Palantír offer us the right ground to develop our suggestions, due to the fact that the two aspects entrench each other deeply; the hero would thus be granted a new and clever feature, without disrupting anything that was and has always been. I will nonetheless keep on trying to maintain the ideas as balanced and respectful of the game's boundaries as possible. Gandalf's five effective abilities are still absolutely paramount. Yet I find this occasion a just occasion to make an attempt, taking also into account the arguments provided by the lore and by the reasonings we have made so far. Just to give a proper transposition in German: der richtige Grund und der richtige Fall  ;)

Yes, I think the magical-barrier mechanism of Gandalf is already implemented in the game via an automatic process. Bearing in mind that we could always focus on other types of defensive displays or on the hope-infusing nature of Narya even more, tying that mechanism to a 'manual' choice might be interesting anyway. Regardless of our differing opinions, I hope you'll continue to participate in the suggesting phase too.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I believe that all Gandalf is lacking at this moment in gameplay is a sort of supporting role. I do not intend to attribute this role to such extent that the division of leaderships in Gondor/Arnor is compromised. Therefore I see Slawek56703's stance system too complicated and overwhelming and would require more balancing over the width of said factions.  Wizards in the universe of Middle-Earth are supposed to have a guiding role as such that they try to influence its principal inhabitants and important actors to act one way or another, with the goal of fighting Sauron. Think of Thorin, Bilbo, Frodo, Theoden, Denethor, Aragorn, and I could continue forever. Other wizards slacked in this role, but there are sufficient arguments to how Gandalf played his part exactly so (the most important being his return as Gandalf the White when he lost his physical form of Gandalf the Grey).

My point is that Gandalf has influenced Middle-Earth more indirectly than directly as his current role as mass-slayer suggest. In addition I believe this is where we can implement Narya as well in his concept. I am not asking here for a large revamp of his abilities but rather something that streamlines his existing character interpretation to a slight supportive aspect. I am of the belief that Gandalf's use of Narya was very much in line with his inherent magical capacities and personality, meaning that he drew no great power from the Ring of Fire other than using it for preserving Middle-Earth. Arguably, this is what the Elven Rings were made for, in order for the Elves to recreate Valinor in Middle/Earth.

For more debate and information on the Three Rings I would recommend this FAQ that uses logic to cover certain indefinite situations in Tolkien´s texts. http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#H3-Three
In this interpretation I would like to continue on DieWalküre's suggestion, in order to give Narya a minor role in supporting mostly units (perhaps heroes too). I think the stances slot at the top of the Palantír would be the most fitting place because Gandalf makes use of magic in either a defensive or offensive sense, although the slot would be used like an ability rather than a stance (if technically possible).


* Level 1: Passive: Narya is implemented as a passive ability, allowing Gandalf to activate his magical barrier in times of needs enhancing his armour when receiving high amounts of damage.
* Level 5: Active: Gandalf infuses surrounding troops with hope and fear resistance for a given amount of time.
* Level 10: Active: Gandalf infuses surrounding troops with hope, fear resistance and increased magic resistance for a given amount of time .
As such, the ability is scaled and becomes more powerful with levels: it retains the passive effect at all levels, while the active switch is only implemented at level 5 and further improved at level 10. When the ability is activated, the passive function does not work for its duration, or during the cooldown. This way the ability is not too powerful at level 1, and links its usefulness to either a defensive or offensive situation, simulating the power of the Ring of Fire at different tactical moments in battle.

In terms of balance of supportive powers this ability has, I see that fear resistance is not unique in the Gondor faction with Faramir and Aragorn, or in Arnor with Arvedui and Araphant. Thus, a temporary implementation would suit best Gandalf's efforts in defending Minas Tirith at one point, but not taking over the role of most outstanding leader in the faction. The increased resistance to magic damage is a valuable addition that can be attributed to Gandalf alone, being a wizard amongst a faction of Men. Then again, Gondor is at a disadvantage against evil factions that have tons of debuffs before dealing pure magic damage: now Gondor has an answer to those moments of overwhelming strength. Concerning the passive, I would suggest a description to be written so that people know under which conditions this 'bubble shield' is activated, for as of now it is not very clear.

With regards to other versions of Gandalf: when the Grey turns into the White, nothing changes apart from the current magic damage increase and reduced ability cooldown (which also affects the proposed ability change). There would be some changes to the Corrupted Gandalf, such as increased fire resistance for nearby friendlies when the proposed ability is activated so that his indiscriminate rage is contained in terms of 'friendly fire'. Gandalf te Challenge Master however, incorporates a leadership of healing aura to nearby friendlies and heroes in the passive function of the proposed ability, and upon activation the magic resistance is further increased. These are still small suggestions I could edit into making the whole ability a passive leadership skill that at all times incorporates the combined power of the Ring of Fire and the One Ring, with the particular 'hidden' abilities that Gandalf the Corrupted and Gandalf the Challenge Master have at their disposal.

I hope this concept was suggestive and clear enough, as many points are being addressed. I would gladly clear up any uncertainties or answer questions.

Thanks for reading,
Garlodur

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