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Autor Thema: A canonical Gandalf  (Gelesen 13114 mal)

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #30 am: 3. Jan 2017, 02:58 »
While we can hide from the issue of the swords canonicity by stating balance issues, design flaws, furthing a specified role, and "furthering goals" the truth is they were powerful swords that surpassed Anduriel and were canonical to Thorin and Gandalf's being.

As innumerably demonstrated in the books, Glamdring and Orcrist both had further goals. One, Glamdring was instrumental in taking down the Balrog of Morgoth. It is conceivable that without it, Gandalf would have been destroyed by the Balrog easily, but with it he broke the Balrog's sword, fought the Balrog and ended up chasing him up the mountain, and it was key in slaying the Great Goblin. So it had many goals that Tolkien wrote about and significance that made it a mightier blade that furthered Gandalf's importance/role in Middle Earth.

To Diewalkure, the lightning sword attack doesn't represent Glamdring, that represents Gandalf's power. Even Saruman can do lightning spells as demonstrated in game and on screen. It would not be hard to implement the +50% damage boost to Gandalf for his Gondor version and not Arnor. Not difficult at all and still allows Gandalf to keep his current powers.

The same could be said for Thorin and he eventually loses Orcrist when he is crowned King, so losing the +50% bonus would still be okay to have but to diminish later.

Now for Narya, I don't mind what you have presented Garlodur, I think the abilities are cool, but I don't think it should take up all three of Gandalf's stances. I feel it should be on Defense with everything that you said and if you click it again (while in defense stance) then it does the powers that you suggested. However, there should be something still for the standard and offensive stances.

The only way I would honestly concede to Narya being totally used as just a one stance system is if Glamdring did the +50% damage bonus passively to Gandalf as that is the most canonical. Otherwise, we "change his role" by switching his stances up like that and thus damaging his character and role that Ealendril worked so hard to put together and does not want changed.

So with that said, I would accept the idea of Narya being fully implemented in just one slot if Glamdring does the +50% bonus for Gondor Gandalf.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #31 am: 3. Jan 2017, 04:11 »
Blue Wizard, you too have pointed out how Glamdring was needed to slay the Balrog and I have absolute respect for that kind of swords: forged by the Noldor and imbued by them with extraordinary properties (it's maybe easier to channel Magic via them) to withstand the horrors of the First Age. That said, in my personal opinion, Lightning Sword (both due to its linkage to Glamdring and to the cinematographic interpretation of that duel) simply represents both Gandalf's powers and his sword's might at the same time. Fact that will be even more indicative in the next patch.

By the way, if I'm not wrong, Lightning Sword used to be called Glamdring, in the 3.8.1 version. I wouldn't mind at all if they reintroduced the past title again, instead of the generic 'Lightning Sword'. I personally think that would suffice to give Glamdring that additional prominence in the game.

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #32 am: 3. Jan 2017, 08:18 »
Well calling it Glamdring wouldn't do anything in my mind--and the reason why Edain Team calls it Lightning Sword now, is because Gandalf didn't have Glamdring when he was with Arnor. So that is the reason they changed it. Maybe we could just add a passive power like Sauron has on the side of Gondor's power tree representing Narya or Glamdring. That could possibly work too, and that would solve the issue easily since Gondor and Arnor have different powers.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

lordoflinks

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #33 am: 3. Jan 2017, 12:59 »
My view on this is that Gondor Gandalf can stay as he his bar a Narya power; although renaming Lighting Sword to Glamdring is a good idea.
Arnor Gandalf when he receives the Glamdring ability, recieves a damage buff; this can also make up for the fact Arnor do not get Gandalf the white.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Hamanathnath

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #34 am: 3. Jan 2017, 14:11 »
Going back to Narya, thank you for sharing your ideas, Garlodur. I won't add any additional thought on the matter yet though, as I and another Beta Tester are conceiving a new proposal, which aims to find a compromise among our views (always based on my first draft) and to make the concept technically feasible in the first place.

Yes, DieWalküre and I have come up with a compromise for Narya that not only is technically (which I'll explain later), but, in our eyes, makes sense with the whole theme of Narya not having a direct or physical effect, but boosting Gandalf internally.

First, let us get into the technical side of this.  Units/Heroes need to have a either a standard stance swap, or a unique stance swap (similar to what Thranduil, Helegwen, Denethor and Malbeth have).  If they don't, this will cause certain bugs.  So, you can't outright replace Gandalf's stance swap with an ability focused on Narya.  So unless one of Gandalf's other abilities are replace, something that I can pretty much guarantee won't ever happen, Gandalf will not have an active or passive ability involving Narya.

So, DieWalküre and I worked with what we had and came up with stance swap that will involve Narya.  The name suggested by DieWalküre is Repatriation of Narya to Gandalf.

To keep The Ring of Fire more of an amplifier rather then it having a direct of physically effect, it will affect Gandalf in a more passive way.

On "Aggressive Stance" , the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in an offensive manor, increasing his spell damage by 25%, but halving the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield (or outright not allowing it to activate, which ever works better).

On "Defensive Stance", the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in a defensive manor, doubling the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield, but reducing his spell damage by 25%.  "Battle Stance" will remain unchanged.

Of course, the numbers can be tweaked to whatever is the most balanced for Gandalf. 

As for Cirdan, because Gandalf will have Narya, the name of his first ability will have to be changed, maybe to something like "Gift of the Grey Havens".  Though I don't think it is necessary to change the effects of the ability, as it still makes sense for Cirdan to inspire allies.

Thoughts and suggestions on everything are greatly appreciated.  :)

DrHouse93

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #35 am: 3. Jan 2017, 15:41 »
That's not a bad idea, Haman and Walk^^

Gandalf7000

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #36 am: 3. Jan 2017, 17:46 »
As for Cirdan, because Gandalf will have Narya, the name of his first ability will have to be changed, maybe to something like "Gift of the Grey Havens".
I would rather see that called "Gift of the Sea(s)"

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #37 am: 3. Jan 2017, 17:55 »
LordofLinks: Gandalf the Grey DID NOT have Glamdring during his time with Arnor. All he technically had was a staff. For this reason, Edain Team got rid of calling his sword Glamdring and introduced the "Lightning Sword" as more of a spell for Gandalf. He doesn't get the benefits of wielding Turgon's sword.

So I have a compromise for all of you. I feel Gandalf should have an additional passive power (much like Sauron does at the beginning of every game that tells about how he can't die and what he needs to level). Call it what you want but I feel this could be applied to Gandalf and it would not mess with his stances or powers at all!

On the passive power to the left it would be called Wisest of the Maia (for Arnor) and Gandalf receives the abilities from Narya by clicking on the power to the left or if it is just a passive bonus--it is applied to him.

Now for Gondor and on all Gondor related maps the power is called Gandalf the Grey has a picture of him when he met Bilbo, Gandalf receives the effects of Narya passively/actively but also receives a damage boost of +50% from Glamdring.

I feel this is the best way and satisfies all parties. You wouldn't have to mess with any of Gandalf's powers, they would stay the same, the stances would stay the same, and this would not interfere with any of Gondor or Arnor's power tree. I think this is the best and most suitable way to implement this.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Garlodur

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #38 am: 4. Jan 2017, 02:19 »
Thank you for your contributions regarding Glamdring, DieWalküre, you phrased it quite a bit better than me, while you also related Lightning Sword to previous versions of Edain Mod's Gandalf.

It is great to hear you have worked on the proposal yourself as well. Having someone on the inside help you with the technical aspect is certainly necessary to keep focus in terms of game design.

First, let us get into the technical side of this.  Units/Heroes need to have a either a standard stance swap, or a unique stance swap (similar to what Thranduil, Helegwen, Denethor and Malbeth have).  If they don't, this will cause certain bugs.  So, you can't outright replace Gandalf's stance swap with an ability focused on Narya.  So unless one of Gandalf's other abilities are replace, something that I can pretty much guarantee won't ever happen, Gandalf will not have an active or passive ability involving Narya.

I understand now, this is some very interesting knowledge to use in future concept creations  ;)
I wonder then, though, how Sauron´s stance system was created, with the swapping of abilities as well.
Also I hope this knowledge contributes to DieWalküre's proposal of Galadriel's stance system. :)

So, DieWalküre and I worked with what we had and came up with stance swap that will involve Narya.  The name suggested by DieWalküre is Repatriation of Narya to Gandalf.

To keep The Ring of Fire more of an amplifier rather then it having a direct of physically effect, it will affect Gandalf in a more passive way.

On "Aggressive Stance" , the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in an offensive manor, increasing his spell damage by 25%, but halving the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield (or outright not allowing it to activate, which ever works better).

On "Defensive Stance", the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in a defensive manor, doubling the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield, but reducing his spell damage by 25%.  "Battle Stance" will remain unchanged.

Of course, the numbers can be tweaked to whatever is the most balanced for Gandalf. 

Well, I had a very similar idea in mind at the beginning of this topic. One that I couldn´t get my head around. For this reason I shared the other idea first, not entirely aware of technical issues surrounding such an implementation.

I was thinking to add the increase/reduction of cooldown for abilities to exactly shown how Gandalf channels Narya´s power to other aspects of magic that are not his abilities, which deal direct damage, but rather hidden abilities like the Bubble Shield to be activated more often in the defensive stance, and a sort of resistance leadership in aggressive stance. It became too complicated at some point however, so I thought of a different way of implementing the abilities (see my previous concept).

I have to say that your joint effort covers a good deal of Narya's use in Gandalf's magic while remaining strongly connected to the stance system. Yet, what I find lacking is the supportive aspect of Gandalf´s personality or, arguably, of the Ring of Fire´s powers. I believe that the bold phrases in the following quote should be deepened out more:

Zitat
"Take this ring, Master… for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix B

Taken from TolkienGateway.net

Here it is explicitly mentioned by none other than Tolkien himself that Gandalf should be a character that carries hope, messages, and news to the Free People of Middle Earth. An aspect that I mentioned before is essential to Gandalf's character and which did not go unnoticed by Peter Jackson's and Sir Ian McKellen's portrayal of the wise Grey Wizard.

Therefore, I sought in my earlier concept a way of including this supportive role. Perhaps it wasn't clear in expressing my aim to scale the ability thus because it would have been too strong at low levels with a passive and active function.

Could you think of a way to include a leadership to the stance system (or to Gandalf as a whole), in technical terms?

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #39 am: 4. Jan 2017, 03:51 »
I'm glad you appreciate the concept, Garlodur. And thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter. The proposal shown by Haman is basically a compromise among most of the aspects we discussed so far; it's true that it may lack something, but I assure you that it's a just compromise indeed  ;)

I understand now, this is some very interesting knowledge to use in future concept creations  ;)
I wonder then, though, how Sauron´s stance system was created, with the swapping of abilities as well.
Also I hope this knowledge contributes to DieWalküre's proposal of Galadriel's stance system. :)

A very wise question. As far as my knowledge contemplates, issues might arise if the stance system is completely replaced by a single ability. Probably (don't absolutely quote me on this though), that's not the case of Sauron or of my proposal concerning Galadriel, since the sixth slot (in these two cases) unlocks a new set of abilities (a new Palantír). But the most significant thing to know is that we nonetheless wanted to stick to the common structure of a stance system, given also the conceptual boundaries I addressed in the first passages of this thread: the fact that Gandalf would never be granted additional abilities, in any way. Therefore, the final outcome we eventually conceived was quite simple, under a conceptual point of view. A three-part feature.

Speaking about technical matters, it would always be great if we managed to receive some indications by the very Edain Team. Due to a quite limited time (these days, especially), it's very unlikely to be given many insights about multiple topics though; or, they probably prefer to sort technical aspects out among themselves, thus sparing us complicated dilemmas to deal with (so that we can freely develop our ideas without many preoccupations). For now, we only have to consider conceptual problematics. This is our task  ;)

Regarding Narya and its hope-infusing properties, I agree with you. As this is fully lore-accurate, there is little to be said. Only, I apologise if it sounds really mysterious and vague, I will tell you this: my concerns about Gandalf's role (something I inferred in my previous posts) have been confirmed. Gandalf won't receive any leadership ability of any sort. Accordingly to his solitary and mass-slayer characterisation, he won't be endowed with anything that could even slightly grant him supporting properties. Although it may seem to contrast with the lore, I perfectly understand the reasons. Henceforth, we could see things in this way: Gandalf's real hope-infusing capability and leading role are his very Magic.

Tomorrow, I will reorder the thread and maybe translate it in German too. Goodnight  :)

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #40 am: 4. Jan 2017, 05:08 »
Okay I made an option available and no one seemed to comment on it. Having Narya/Glamdring as a power on the left hand side like Sauron's power that he starts off with would solve all issues.

I am really tired of hearing people say that Gandalf's role will change, does Aragorn as King Elessar's role change when he becomes king and gives a leadership bonus to nearby troops? No, because this is canonical and it is what he would do. Does Galadriel's new system proposed change her role as a building destroyer, the answer is yes.

So I could go on about this but why should other characters get "special" treatment like what is mentioned above, but not Gandalf? Who had all these canonically anyways. I feel to NOT implement this with Gandalf is uncanonical--if Aragorn, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc. have other aspects that they semi contribute, then I don't see why Gandalf having Narya and a bonus from Glamdring would be overpowering, next to many other heroes--it wouldn't. Any character with a flying mount could still best Gandalf, and Sauron himself could still beat him, so what is the issue with Narya and Glamdring?

Implement the combined system of Garlodur with the power I suggested in the left corner for Arnor (call it the Wisest of the Maia) and implement Glamdring's bonus with Narya's ability with Gondor (call it Gandalf the Grey). Simply put, done. This is the best option, don't have to worry about the stance system, don't have to worry about power changes, and everything is canoncial and goes with the books and balance system.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Hamanathnath

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #41 am: 4. Jan 2017, 14:05 »
Okay I made an option available and no one seemed to comment on it. Having Narya/Glamdring as a power on the left hand side like Sauron's power that he starts off with would solve all issues.
I don't think it really makes sense for Gandalf to have his own starting power like Sauron has.  There are 2 reasons for Sauron having the power explain how he levels up.

1.  Because without it, you would have no idea how to level up Sauron (a simple, but important reason :P)
2.  But more importantly, Sauron is without any doubt the most important aspect of Mordor's gameplay.  Sauron is the leader of Mordor, and the entire balance of the faction revolves around him.  Without him, you can't level up any of the Nazgul or the Mouth of Sauron, you can't get certain units such as Black Uruk Archers and Troll Catapults, and you can't get any unit upgrades outside of banner carriers. 

Gandalf, on the other hand, as you know, is not the leader of Gondor/Arnor, nor does he function as the center figure of the factions.  So I don't really think it makes sense for Gondor or Arnor to have a power that they start with that involves Gandalf.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what the exact point is of giving Gandalf a 50% damage boost in the first place is.  He already has incredibly high melee damage (I recall it being 440 melee damage at level 1, which is higher then pretty much any hero in the mod that isn't a hero killer).

I can get behind implementing Narya because it does not require faction specific powers (as Gandalf has Narya in both his Gondor and Arnor incarnations) and using the stance swap mechanic, Narya can be implemented in interesting ways.  But giving Gandalf a damage boost just to signify Glamdring feels unneeded, uninteresting, and unbalanced to me.

Slawek56703

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #42 am: 4. Jan 2017, 14:26 »
I have another little idea of Narya attainted to his stance . If Gandalf spells become much stronger in next version i came up with simle idea . Last chance  xD

Gandalf Grey


Gandalf White


Gandalf Corrupted


Gandalf Challenge Master
 

Walküre

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #43 am: 4. Jan 2017, 15:38 »
I am really tired of hearing people say that Gandalf's role will change, does Aragorn as King Elessar's role change when he becomes king and gives a leadership bonus to nearby troops? No, because this is canonical and it is what he would do. Does Galadriel's new system proposed change her role as a building destroyer, the answer is yes.

No, it doesn't. I exactly crafted the proposal not to alter her major supporting role and her characterisation of a building destroyer. The feature in fact has a highly temporary essence and, once its limited effect is over, Galadriel returns immediately to her usual conceptual design (without any permanent change).

We're not doing any favouritism of any sort to any hero. We're just considering each specific case and then trying to come up with the most reasonable solution. As I wrote at the very beginning of this debate, Gandalf's concept is extremely tough to deal with, as there are so many boundaries to take into account (I listed them multiple times). Therefore, as Haman pointed out, Sauron's or Galadriel's situation can't objectively be applicable to this context, where we are in front of a solitary mass-slayer who is not supposed to be the leader of the faction (albeit being the faction's mightiest force to reckon with). Add to this all the iconic references from the first chapter of this game series which he embodies.

Said that, a three-part stance system complies well with the need to return Narya to its legitimate owner, to focus more on Gandalf's magical powers and, most importantly, not to disrupt his concept or the faction's structure. That's why I deem the proposal both enough simple and viable at the same time. A good deal more viable than modifying the spellbook structure of the faction by adding or replacing spells. Especially now, I would say, that spells are undergoing a major overhaul for the next patch; but, since this is something still in the developing phase, we're neither allowed to reveal it nor am I intended to deal with the topic in this thread. Concerning Glamdring, as I previously told you, I respect your views and perfectly understand why you wish the sword were to be given more prominence, but, given the very confined range of action that we're obliged to operate into, I decided to follow the most simplistic way: not doing anything at all. Lightning Sword already well represents the royal sword's might (in conjunction with Gandalf's Magic) and so, by leaving everything untouched, there won't be issues related to new features or to the Arnor/Gondor duality aspect.

Slawek, thank you for sharing your ideas. I would nonetheless stick to the main concept Haman and I proposed. In my opinion, changing animations and granting him a ranged attack are something that makes the system more complex. And more complicated concepts had better be avoided while having to deal with the Grey Wizard, for the known reasons.

dkbluewizard

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Re: A canonical Gandalf
« Antwort #44 am: 4. Jan 2017, 17:41 »
Well I offered a solution that fits and could please everyone, I really don't see how a damage boost changes Gandalf's character significantly since he doesn't have aoe melee attacks, can't affect air units, and still wouldn't come close to beating Sauron. Maybe he would then be able to beat Morgul Witch King and Dol Gulder Khamul, but book wise he should, and really all they would have to do is mount their fellbeasts and Gandalf is destroyed. Don't get me started with Smaug owning him.

So as far as balance goes, it is still balanced.  Hamanathnath, uninteresting and unneeded is your main issue, but I say that it is canonical and would still be balanced. As I demonstrated above.

But okay Diewalkure and Haman lets say that I actually agree with you, based on what YOU have presented Diewalkure, I will do the same:

Besides the Narya power, what if we gave Gandalf the +50% damage boost only when he is facing a powerful opponent like if the Balrog strikes him, a troll, or other powerful character? Basically this would function and activate along with his magical shield (this could be a passive ability that goes along with his Lightning Sword).

1. It would not change his function as a mass slayer.
2. It implements the canon of Glamdring to his character like you did with Galadriel albeit it the same time structure and cool down.
3. Gandalf did this against the Balrog in the books (only time his sword glowed white)
4. If you see complications with Arnor, just don't have him activate this ability or say that he can but it is more a magical melee enhancement instead of the blade doing the work (but personally I feel he shouldn't get it with Arnor).
5. Lastly, this works like the Galadriel function and it would since Gandalf already has an ability similar when his shield surrounds him.

Let us just be honest, I have presented canonical balances to the character and presented something that would go great in addition to not changing his character, this would work. I don't remember ever a time someone called Gandalf the Godly.

So this is my proposal, we can implement Narya via the way we have talked about and this ability would go along with his magic bubble shield.  I think it would be okay. Especially since it doesn't "change his role."
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.