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Autor Thema: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin  (Gelesen 16863 mal)

Fredius

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Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« am: 4. Jan 2017, 19:42 »
Woodmen of Anduin


Greetings ladies and gentlemen :),

Today I would like to present to you a new addition to Lothlorien: the Men of the Vale of Anduin, also known as the Woodmen of Anduin. In this proposal I will go through the reasons why we should add them to the faction (both lore- and gameplay wise), how we should implement them (and their role in the mod), and how their visual design should, in my opinion, look like. Now, this might look like a wall of text, but please bear with me, it's worth it xD.



Zitat
Most of the Men of the northern regions of the Westlands were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin.[...]Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale.
—J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F, "The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age", "Of Men"


Reason
Now, on to the matter at hand: why should the Woodmen be added to Lothlorien, on a lore wise perspective? The first and most important argument is that the faction of Anduin is already present within the faction. The Men of the Anduin also consist of the Beornings, and they are already present within the faction. Adding the Woodmen, whom saw Grimbeorn as their chieftain, to the mod would just be a way to expand the role of these people in the faction, for I believe they deserve to be mentioned in the mod as well.

It may be obvious, but it’s important to know that there live common Men, who are not gifted with some mystical power like the Beornings, within the Vale of Anduin and Greenwood (now Mirkwood). They might not have been a powerhouse like Gondor or Rohan, but they were very capable of defending themselves. I quote from Tolkien Gateway: “The Wargs and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains usually did not dare to approach as they were brave and well-armed”. Thus I believe it would be appropriate to include them in a military sense.

Lothlorien isn’t a faction that only has the Kingdom of Lothlorien among its ranks. The faction consists also of the Kingdom of Mirkwood, Beornings and the Ents (plus Huorns), therefore I see Lothlorien as a faction that encompasses several independent kingdoms who do not belong to either of them; they’re very similar to the Imladris faction on that matter.

Now, gameplay wise I think the Beornings are a bit overrepresented in the mod. In my matches against Lothlorien, I’ve seen the AI send countless of Beornings to the battlefield almost as easily as building regular Elven troops. Don’t you think it’s weird to be able to get an army of Beornings at your disposal? My belief is that they should be a rare elite unit, and not just cannon fodder. Thus I propose that the Woodsmen of Anduin should be the main representation of the Anduin Men, and the Beornings should be changed to elites, as they should be.

Implementation
How should these Men be implemented into to the mod? The most logical way would in my opinion be via the Beorning Homestead. Once you build the Homestead, you can only recruit the Woodmen, and you can’t build the Beornings until you reach level 3. From there on you can build the Beornings as a late game tank. The role of the Woodsmen will be that of Medium Infantry; more armoured than the Lorien Elves, but less armoured than the Mirkwood Elves. I will expand upon their role with the unit designs.

Visual Design
Now I will explain my view of the unit’s visual design. Since the Men of the Anduin share a common ancestry with the Rohirrim, I figure the Woodmen should have a similar appearance in their armour, but still different. The Rohirrim’s armour are based on Norse and Viking armour, and I’d like to keep that motive in the design of the unit. From what I’ve seen in the movies is that the Rohirrim either wear scaled armour, or a leather cuirass. So I thought, why not combine these two styles, and what came out of it is a Viking leather Lamellar armour piece!


A combination of the scale-style small pieces of armour, but made of leather instead of metal. Ofcourse some Middle-Earth influences would probably suffice, but I would let the team decide on that.
From what I can see is that the Rohirrim helmets are also based on Viking helmets, but luckily there are a lot of different Viking helmet designs that are unused in the movies. Some examples that I found:


I think either the second or the third helmet would fit perfectly with the leather armour, but I don’t think a metal helmet would be inappropriate; it would look just fine. Just like with the armour, the helmet can also use some Middle-Earth influences on it.

Unit role and Weaponry
Now comes the design of the weapons. Here I will also explain the role of the unit. From my own matches with Lothlorien I always had trouble defending both the base and my settlement plots. An early game Orc rush, combined with Mordor’s many heroes, requires a lot of troops to defend all my inner and outer buildings. When I build a Beorning Homestead or an Entmoot, I need to send Lorien troops to defend it from enemy spam attacks, but at the same time I leave my base defenceless, because a Beorning or Ent quickly dies without support. Unless I build a Mirkwood outpost as soon as possible, I can almost guarantee that I will lose the match. This is where the Woodmen come in. Since they are medium armoured, they are far better suited to defend the settlement plots than the very light Lorien units. Troll and cavalry rushes are especially dangerous, so I would equip the Woodmen with a polearm. A polearm also fits the lifestyle of Men who live in the woods as hunters or farmers, but are also a great defence against Monster units or cavalry. So summed up, they will be Lorien’s early guard units.

As for weaponry, we don’t want them to carry a “generic” spear, but rather a Middle-Earth inspired one, I chose to use a gisarme or a fauchard fork as their weapon. To me, they look as outlandish as one could expect from a weapon straight out of Middle-Earth, and are, again, a great counter to cavalry and Monster units:


Finally, the upgrades. I don’t want to make this unit too complex, so I won’t give them any unique upgrades apart from Banner Carriers and Forged Blades. However, I’d like to give them a passive power, which strengthens the idea that they are Men from the woods. I call it “Born Hunters”, they have the ability to stealth themselves between the trees, and are excellent at hunting Monster creatures like Trolls, spiders, and ofcourse cavalry as well.

So let me know what you think of them, and if they are a worthy to be implemented into the mod! Ofcourse everything I described above is up for debate, and if you have other alternatives for some ideas then feel free to post them. I for one would love to see as much of Middle-Earth as possible, and this includes the Men of Anduin as well xD.

Sources:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Woodmen
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Men_of_the_Vales_of_Anduin
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Vales_of_Anduin

Players IN FAVOR of the concept:
Fredius
Julio229
Lord Aytugar
lordoflinks
LordDainIronfoot
The_Necromancer0
Die Walküre
kingsjewel
lahe95
Dain@
Ectheldir
FilipGeorg95
OakenShield224
Elessar_The_King
Hamanathnath
Tirano
Garlodur
Slawek56703
Tolgayurdal
Dkbluewizard2

Players AGAINST the concept:
TheDarkOne
« Letzte Änderung: 25. Mai 2020, 21:38 von Fredius »

Julio229

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Jan 2017, 19:53 »
This is an amazing proposal, Fredius! It is really well researched and has a clear purpose in gameplay. I agree Beornings are too common in Lothlorien right now, and if they are going to get a buff with the Gifts of Lorien proposal, it can only be good that they are changed to be late-game units. It also helps representing one of the areas of Middle-Earth that hasn't got a lot in the Mod, the Vales of the Anduin.


Lord Aytugar

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #2 am: 4. Jan 2017, 21:00 »
Good job Fredius! The implementation and visuals are decent. They are part of Middle Earth and they need to present. Of course i support this proposal :)

Fredius

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #3 am: 4. Jan 2017, 23:31 »
Thanks guys xD!

I knew you'd like it Lord Aytugar, at first I had a different idea in mind but your idea to have them build from the Beorning Homestead was much better, thanks for that :).

lordoflinks

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #4 am: 5. Jan 2017, 01:45 »
This concept goes above and beyond what is needed for a single unit.
I fully support this, as not only does it allows beornings to gain their elite status, it gives representation to the vale of anduin.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


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LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #5 am: 5. Jan 2017, 07:38 »
This suggestion is amazing,not only as a presentation,which is wonderfully made ,detailed and well structured with full explanation of everything!!! So I can only say exceptionally well done work Fred my friend,incredible idea and presentation....

I like the idea from both aspects ,lore reasons and game play wise reasons which Fred pointed out. I think the Woodman as a part if Middle Earth and inhabitants of Lorien,deserve a place to be represented in the game,and Fred found perfect place and use for them....

I really hope that the Team will like and take the idea into consideration if not using it!! :)

Greetings from the Lord of the Iron Hills!!! :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

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Lord Aytugar

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #6 am: 5. Jan 2017, 11:05 »
I am happy to help Fredius. A simple thank you is enough for me. We are all here to improve the mod and complete the Middle Earth in this game.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #7 am: 5. Jan 2017, 12:33 »
Impressive concept. I don't think there is much left to discuss, you pretty much went through every necessary point. Well done, indeed. And the concept presentation is well organized and thoroughly researched. Only thing you didn't mention was battalion sizes, since they're cannon fodder I imagine you're thinking more of around 15 units.
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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #8 am: 5. Jan 2017, 12:41 »
Do they fear the Lady of the neighbouring Golden Wood? Or, will Grimbeorn's Axe of Doriath rekindle courage in their hearts too?  ;)

Fredius

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #9 am: 5. Jan 2017, 14:31 »
Thanks guys, I am really glad you like it :).

This concept goes above and beyond what is needed for a single unit.

This made me laugh :D. You're right, it's a lot of research and text just for a single unit, but what I've learnt from setting up proposals on MU is that they have to be as specific as possible, and I tried to do that with this suggestion :).

This suggestion is amazing,not only as a presentation,which is wonderfully made ,detailed and well structured with full explanation of everything!!! So I can only say exceptionally well done work Fred my friend,incredible idea and presentation....

I like the idea from both aspects ,lore reasons and game play wise reasons which Fred pointed out. I think the Woodman as a part if Middle Earth and inhabitants of Lorien,deserve a place to be represented in the game,and Fred found perfect place and use for them....

I really hope that the Team will like and take the idea into consideration if not using it!! :)

Greetings from the Lord of the Iron Hills!!! :)

Thanks my friend, I hope the team will indeed agree to this :).

Impressive concept. I don't think there is much left to discuss, you pretty much went through every necessary point. Well done, indeed. And the concept presentation is well organized and thoroughly researched. Only thing you didn't mention was battalion sizes, since they're cannon fodder I imagine you're thinking more of around 15 units.

Hmm good question. Yes I think either 10 or 15 men should be enough, but personally I would go for 10, since I'm not sure just how numerous these men were in the lore. What does the rest think?

Do they fear the Lady of the neighbouring Golden Wood? Or, will Grimbeorn's Axe of Doriath rekindle courage in their hearts too?  ;)

That's actually a great idea within your question xD! Yes if Grimbeorn's Axe of Doriath will be implemented into the mod, then I think it should also rekindle the courage in the hearts of the Woodmen as well, since they also see Grimbeorn as their chieftain.

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #10 am: 5. Jan 2017, 14:39 »
That's actually a great idea within your question xD! Yes if Grimbeorn's Axe of Doriath will be implemented into the mod, then I think it should also rekindle the courage in the hearts of the Woodmen as well, since they also see Grimbeorn as their chieftain.

Wait, I didn't say I'm in favour of this concept. I was just hinting at a vague idea  :D

Jokes aside, I agree that Axe of Doriath should be involved. Therefore, that enchanted weapon could strengthen not only Beornings, but also the other people of the woods  :)

Garlodur

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #11 am: 7. Jan 2017, 00:47 »
Well, Fredius, with proposals like this you set an example for everyone who has ideas to improve the Mod. I hope to see more people who start off a topic this way, only to ensue further debate. Therefore, I will give you my criticism.

Firstly, in your conception the Lórien Pikemen would become obsolete. The Woodmen of the Vale would be a better alternative to Lórien's early game and the faction was supposed to be weak at defense. Besides, standard Lórien units already have a speed boost that makes them capable of crossing the map quickly, thus giving you plenty of options to defend your isolated build plots.
Secondly, the ET chose not to include Mirkwood Spearmen exactly in order to create a cavalry weakness for Lothlórien. Currently, it can be questioned to what extent this premise is defendable, with two very efficient anti-cavalry (Mirkwood Palace Guards and Elk Riders) and several other good options. Yet, anti-cavalry Woodmen would be difiicult to confine in a role.
Thirdly, in terms of the AI using too many Beornings, this is not an issue in online matches in which Beornings are made balanced with regards to cost and strength. The Beornings might be turned into more of an elite unit if the Axe of Doriath concept is accepted, but this will require rebalancing of attributes.
Fourthly, in terms of lore I question the availability of the Woodmen in war away from home. You have sketched their background to involve mainly defending their own Vale against the evils of the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, so I doubt they had much time to deal with whatever happened outside their borders. If they were implemented, I do agree with you that the Beorninger Hut in the Lothlórien faction is the right place in this mod.
Fifthly, Lothlórien is not weak at the moment, and you base your claims of offline matches. Besides, with the siege update the faction gains the permanent Huorn spell that will undoubtedly be used for defending isolated settlements. This will be an large step in the direction of what you wish for.

After giving criticism I feel obliged to come up with a compromise between your concept and something more likely to be accepted by ET. Thus, the Woodmen of the Vale could be implemented as a defensive upgrade to the Beorninger Hut in the form of creeps who defend it. This will be particulary useful in early game, if the tactical need for a Beorninger Hut is present, but still confines these units to defending their homes, which fits their background more appropriately.

I only hope to spark more discussion. Now, fire away. ;)

Fredius

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #12 am: 7. Jan 2017, 04:03 »
First of all thanks for your critics Garlodur, and for the praise as well, I appreciate it :).

Now as for my counterarguments, let's start with the position of the Lorien Pikemen. It's true that they can move quickly within the map, but there are two problems. Firstly, during early game battles against a spam attack, Lorien is automatically on a defensive position, and can't do much apart from defending its base and settlements. However, the problem is that Lorien only has 1 building from which units can be built; its citadel. If the enemy attacks both the settlements and the base, then Lorien cant send the pikemen, or any other troops for that matter, outside of its base, else he risks letting it be destroyed. Unlike the other factions, where you can have multiple recruitment buildings, and thus can produce twice as many troops in the same amount of time as Lorien. This means that the settlements are almost defenceless, unless the player builds an outpost, which involkes the second problem. It means that the player's early game survivability is dependant on building outposts, if that doesnt happen it's game over. Even if you manage to build an outpost, it still takes a lot of time and resources untill you can finally build troops and defences. I personally had a lot of matches where I got killed while having an outpost, because of how long it takes to be able to set up defences. I find that kind of a discouragable thought tbh. The Anduin Pikemen gives the player the opportunity to defend both the base AND his settlements, because Beornings and Ents can't defend them on their own, and the Lorien units are too busy protecting their own base.

Your second argument kinda confirms my first one; the player NEEDS the Mirkwood Outpost to survive. Also, once you build the Mirkwood outpost the Palace Guards become a better alternative, because the Woodsmen are just meant for early game, but you have to manage to build the outpost first :P. Apart from defending your settlements, one might argue that the other role of the Woodmen Pikemen would be to ensure the survival of the player untill an outpost is built.

As for your third argument, it might not be an issue with online matches, but it's an issue with the lore. It makes it seem that Beornings are numerous and act like some kind of cannon fodder on their own. I honestly believe that warriors who are twice as big as the average man, AND can transform into bears, should be counted as an elite force. This is just pure logic in my eyes.

It's true that the Woodmen fighting outside of their borders might seem against the lore, but the same can be said about the Beornings or the Shire. When did they ever fight outside of their borders? Same can also be said about specific units; like the Gondorian fountain guards or Mirkwood palace guards. Shouldnt they logically stay in their own homes to protect it as the guards they are? This is where "game" logic comes in, where anything can happen. Let the availability of certain units/factions in the lore please not influence the mod too much, else we can remove half of the units in it :P.

And for your final argument, I know some of these claims are not based on online matches, but it doesn't mean that we "AI players" opinions should be neglected ;). Also I'm aware of the siege patch, since, as a beta-tester, I tested it myself. I even dare to say that with the new siege patch, Lorien will need these pikemen even harder than before ;). The Huorn spell is atm a mid-late game spell, and the Woodmen are meant for the early game, where survivability is a lot harder.

All in all I hope my answers have convinced you. If not, then I am always eager to discuss this further :). The creeps system seems like a good idea as well though, but the point of a unit is that they can move to protect all the other settlements, not just the Beorning Homestead. I will let the team decide on what they prefer; if they even want to have the unit in the mod at all, that is :P.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Jan 2017, 14:55 von Fredius »

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #13 am: 8. Jan 2017, 14:37 »
I probably forgot to openly disclose my thoughts on the concept. I'm eventually FOR this proposal. Initially, I was kind of skeptic about implementing in the faction something that doesn't have any magical/supernatural property in their own characterisation. But, as for some of the concepts that have been recently discussed, the lore speaks clearly and very little of the idea falters. So, I made up my mind a bit and I don't think that adding Men to the faction would be negative, since the distinction of Lothlórien from the other realms is maintained very defined  :)

Fredius

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Re: Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin
« Antwort #14 am: 8. Jan 2017, 14:46 »
Wow thanks man! It would be an honour to add you to the list of people in favor of the concept xD.