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Autor Thema: Narya  (Gelesen 37958 mal)

Garlodur

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #105 am: 21. Okt 2017, 20:26 »

Zitat
Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar. At times he win come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again. But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Valaquenta

Ulumúri (Level 1): The Horns of Ylmir resound in battle, in times of struggle and strife. For 15 seconds all allied units on the map are fearless. Surrounding units gain +10% attack.

Sound: Horns of Ylmir.


Dear everyone and particularly DieWalküre whom I know to be excited about this,

With the reveal of the new Imladris Spell Book I immediately thought of this concept, attempting to revamp Círdan even before the new version is released. It seems to me this discussion needs to be reopened to address the issue at hand: the fearlessness boost this ability provides being already very present in the new Spell Book.

I am reffering to the Journey to Valinor spell that provides continuous yet stationary fear resistance to nearby troops, and the Summon Hobbits spell having a leadership providing fear resistance for nearby troops. It seems a global momentary fear resistance becomes redundant in Imladris gameplay however, which will not accord the high standards of the Edain Team regarding uniqueness and diverse mechanics.

I will explain myself:

The first thing we can do is to leave this concept as is, hoping it will see daylight in a later update after 4.5. We therefore accept that Imladris becomes an extremely fear resistant faction, making it one of its themes. Many lore arguments could be found to support this, yet in gameplay this might result in Imladris being overpowered against certain factions, or worse making Fear and Stun abilities absolutely useless against Imladris (which is a sign of poor game design).

The second thing we can do (which seems more the way of the Edain Community) is to adapt this concept to the recent unforeseen changes. This will become a tough discussion because I really like the deep lore value behind the Ulumúri ability, which is perfectly represented in-game with a temporary fear resistance. So far I do not have an idea what different effect to choose for this ability, and I honestly do not know what Imladris lacks in terms of gameplay.

Let's exchange ideas!

Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #106 am: 22. Okt 2017, 14:45 »
I'm well willing to discuss these matters further, whatever the reason may be :)

You have a point in stating that the new overhauled spellbook would perhaps make fear-cancelling features too prominent in the holistic design of the faction. It is a probable risk we have to be aware of. We could not know how things would unfold, obviously, due to the very proposal being forwarded even before the Beta which presented the new version of Rivendell's spells. In order to aim at the kernel of the topic: I'm not against rethinking how the ability should fare in the game. I guess that the enormous iconic value of such feature will nonetheless remain ever-present. The reference to Ulmo is too apparent to be overshadowed by some readjustments of the case.

As I hitherto envisaged what we could be up to, I think we may simply replace fear-related effects with a boost of the units' armour. Not only does the Vala of the Oceans incite to fight against the Evil (enhanced attack), but the protective influence of the water makes also troops more resilient in general. An addition of 10% armour (or maybe 15%). Since we're dealing with a level-1 ability, there is not much we can come up with anyway. I'm open to different ideas, of course.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #107 am: 4. Feb 2018, 21:49 »
Hey Guys :)
I just come back on this thread because i had an idea. Beside inscresing attack to fight wickest creatures, Ulmo could give the water protection mentioned by Walküre, which would give a significant armor to ranged damage. With significant i mean something porperly balanced for a level one ability, but at the same time enough effective such to protect the small battalions of Rivendell, especially in early game. This is by far one of the most raised issue about the faction. I would define as a sort of "water shield" which slows down enemy salvo :)

Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #108 am: 4. Feb 2018, 22:57 »
I do lean towards this option. It sounds like the most appropriate one for a level-1 defensive ability. An armour boost seems really the simplest choice; we nonetheless have to make sure that the very feature is properly balanced, as you said. Imladris already disposes of the finest armoured troops in the game. Values need therefore to be adjusted for the good. Other than that, I have no problem with your proposal.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #109 am: 4. Feb 2018, 23:25 »
I do lean towards this option. It sounds like the most appropriate one for a level-1 defensive ability. An armour boost seems really the simplest choice; we nonetheless have to make sure that the very feature is properly balanced, as you said. Imladris already disposes of the finest armoured troops in the game. Values need therefore to be adjusted for the good. Other than that, I have no problem with your proposal.

Indeed, Walküre :) They just have the finest armor in game. That's why i would like to adress the protection not as a total armor boost, but specifically and only against arrows. It should be technically feasible given that we have just other example in game. Tower Shields upgrade in Iron Hills for instance :)
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Feb 2018, 23:54 von AulëTheSmith »

Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #110 am: 5. Feb 2018, 08:51 »
As we elect this path, I think it would be wise to do away with those fear-cancelling effects. The attack boost could be toned down too or even removed altogether. In this sense, a more moderate influence on troops makes the ability proper for its function/value.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #111 am: 5. Feb 2018, 09:21 »
As we elect this path, I think it would be wise to do away with those fear-cancelling effects. The attack boost could be toned down too or even removed altogether. In this sense, a more moderate influence on troops makes the ability proper for its function/value.

I completely agree :) I think the influence of Ulumùri can be interpreted also in this way, taking into account gameplay aspects too

Garlodur

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #112 am: 5. Feb 2018, 13:47 »
Ooh that does sound exciting! I'm in for more references to the Valar, and especially Ulmo as it seems Cirdan is the only logical option to implement such references.

Yet, the defensive boost against arrows is already present as a passive by the Lindon Guardians. Their boost is quite significant already and can be stacked. Círdan's ability can be an improved version because it's map-wide and is not restricted to infantry units alone, but alltogether it would make the Lindon Tower an essential aspect of Imladris play, if not game-changing.

Or am I exaggerating?  :P

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #113 am: 5. Feb 2018, 19:08 »
Oh I'm sorry Garlodur I completely forgot this detail. it's some time that I did not play imladris using Lindon Archers  [ugly]. Despite this, still the problems of arrows persist I think, as well as problem with great armies  ;). I understand the reasoning of uniqueness you proposed. The other option, just considered, is to make the effect involving armor in general but in that case again it would be nothing new, a theme that is just present in many ways in the military Rivendell. Otherwise, I don't know. What do you propose?

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #114 am: 21. Jan 2019, 03:34 »
I am for this proposal, which makes Gandalf's skillset little more interesting in comparison with vanilla abilities which can name them even while sleeping. Yes, they are fine and fit, I wouldn't change them even after so many years since BFME1, but it doesn't mean that we can't add something what will shine above them, like Narya stances.
And personally I wouldn't be afraid of adding some bonuses to his normal Narya stance and lesser little bit negative effects for aggressive and defensive stances.
We are talking about one of the three elven rings power. And from gameplay-balance perspective, don't forget that Gandalf has mount skill, which is just pure travelling skill without effect. So he has in total only four abilities which do something, so use fifth for stances doesn't mean that he will be abnormally strong.
« Letzte Änderung: 21. Jan 2019, 04:17 von Tiberius Ogden »

Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #115 am: 21. Jan 2019, 18:51 »
Thank you for the support. I knew you would see the profoundly positive arguments at the root of the proposal. Should all go well, and our plea be heard, we'll not only add something more to an absolutely crystallised hero design, but also resolve one particularly pestering lore inaccuracy. The Ring of Fire belongs to his legitimate owner, simply said.

As a side-note, another beautiful reason I've pondered about: in so doing, each of the Three Rings will be distributed equally among three good factions (Gondor/Arnor, Rivendell and Lothlórien). Pretty just and fair, isn't it? :)

I shall update the list.

Fellowship

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #116 am: 21. Jan 2019, 19:34 »
I'm definitely in favour of this proposal as it is lore-accurate and makes Gandalf even more interesting than he currently is. Great ideas for our Wise Wizard!

Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #117 am: 29. Jan 2019, 16:08 »
I would like to congratulate all those who have been staunchly supporting this concept so far; it's the most popular one on MU, and I believe it is so for a reason. I'm going to add a couple of last-minute changes to the proposal. The general structure remains the same, obviously, except for a few secondary aspects.

Namely, the normal stance is named after Narya and it's the sole option showing the actual Ring of Fire, whereas all three stances (theoretically) refer to said Ring. Moreover, I've grown quite dubious about my graphical choice at the time; two of the icons present very situational images, therefore not so apt for a universal, deep-affecting feature. Plus, I feel we should focus on Narya's role more, by stressing its own defined influence by means of a single stance. It's overall much clearer, immediate and direct. That's why I've recovered some bits of BFME's bygone content, which nonetheless are of great help. Sometimes, it happens that old is gold and cartoonish art serves exactly the right scope. For instance, can you believe that Gandalf's bubble-shield had its own vanilla icon? ;)



Zitat
GANDALF'S STANCES

Normal Stance: Narya - The Ring of Fire ensures a proper balance between spell effectiveness and the bubble-shield's frequency.
Narya also preserves its bearer from toil and wear, providing higher resistance against fire, poison, ice and magic.


Offensive Stance: Might of the Istar - Gandalf uses his potent magic to fight evil and tyranny. His spell damage is amplified by 50% and his attack by 15%.
On the other hand, his defence is decreased by 25% and his magical bubble-shield is completely disabled, leaving him vulnerable against enemy heroes and monsters.


Defensive Stance: Wizard's Shield - Gandalf conveys all his power to his bubble-shield, to resist any fell menace. His defence is increased by 25% and his bubble-shield's frequency will be a lot higher, granting him protection against units, monsters and heroes.
Conversely, the effort drains part of Gandalf's vigour and his spell damage is then decreased by 50%.



As you may see, I've re-worded everything in order to further specialise on Narya, via his normal stance. And it doesn't end here, because the Ring will even protect its bearer from the action of all those factors we have identified as decay, thus easing the wizard's burden in times of direst need. I think this last addition finally connects Narya with its two fellow-Rings, since the Three will each explore the mentioned preservation theme, albeit in different facets.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #118 am: 29. Jan 2019, 16:16 »
I like it, Narya now stands normally in the stance system and has clear purpose.
And you've even used ideas from our Elrond's thread debate. xD

We shouldn't forget that all three Gandalf forms (Hobbit Gandalf for Dwarves, Arnor Gandal, and Gondor Gandalf) will have that stance system, cause he got the ring from Cirdan immediately when he arrived.

In general I am glad that we're close to books concerning effects for three elven rings of power as much as possible.

Now it seems that:

Narya - resists
Nenya - heals
Vilya - protects


« Letzte Änderung: 29. Jan 2019, 19:55 von Tiberius Ogden »

Only True Witchking

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #119 am: 30. Jan 2019, 01:15 »
I personally am totally in favour of this suggestion, and I definitely support it.
However, I can see some balancing issues, if one changes quickly between normal/defensive and offensive stance when casting a spell. I personally am not very bothered by that, but I still feel like it should be pointed out.

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