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Autor Thema: Narya  (Gelesen 5059 mal)

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #90 am: 20. Mai 2017, 17:44 »
I don't know whether these suggestions are to be included in the next update. And even if I knew that, I couldn't reveal it either (since I can't give away internal information), unless a specific allowance. All official news and statements concerning what will be are published by the Edain Team in the proper board of the forum. This, as the other concepts belonging to this thread, are still proposals, and they thus ought to be treated that way.

 I'm sorry mine is only hope  :D my intention is not to force you. And I'm quite sure you are very good moderator which means you're also able to keep secrets and surprises until the right moment comes  xD.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #91 am: 20. Mai 2017, 18:03 »
I'm sorry mine is only hope  :D my intention is not to force you. And I'm quite sure you are very good moderator which means you're also able to keep secrets and surprises until the right moment comes  xD.

This is in fact what every just and decent moderator should also do ;)

Wait, noble Aulë, and thy patience shall perhaps be rewarded. This only time wilt foretell.

Offline Garlodur

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #92 am: 22. Mai 2017, 16:48 »
You know, when I read the Silmarillion (and many people like me) I never read so deeply into it. Perhaps it should be read more academically and less for leisure, if you want to extract and deal with these background stories. I have respect for you, Walk, as you are committed to learn and make this mod so interesting with your knowledge of lore.

As always, I think the type of ability suggested as a revised level 10 fits Círdan very well, as it shows the powerful extent of his knowledge of the seas, and it seems much more directly connected to Ossë than to Ulmo. The effects have been discussed too. I feel that the more doubts from the ET are answered, the less likely it is they reject suggestions.

Continue your work, Walk. You're doing a great job for the German and International community.  ;)

Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #93 am: 22. Mai 2017, 21:39 »
I have respect for you, Walk, as you are committed to learn and make this mod so interesting with your knowledge of lore.

Continue your work, Walk. You're doing a great job for the German and International community.  ;)

You're now making me blush, Garlodur :P

Many thanks for your praise and very precious words. I'm just trying to perfect this project as much as I can and deem proper, aiming at the inclusion of many more elements from our beloved and sacred canons; and I think that something more could indeed be added, in compliance with the limitations of gameplay. Speaking for myself, the fact that such pivotal themes do have their role in the game (even when confined in a secondary context) pleases me a good deal, knowing that the Mod gets more lore-accurate and multicoloured.

Yes, I guess there might be some academic courses that study and make inquiries into the Silmarillion or Tolkien's writings, somewhere in the world. The myth-creating nature of the Silmarillion just fascinates me, because its essence permits to have innumerable scopes for exploring the lore thoroughly, of which the book is the very foundation. There are a few examples of this particular genre of literature, which is called Mythopoeia; from religious books, to lost mythological compositions that founded the essential elements of their related mythologies/cultures (I had the privilege to study some of them, in school). And the Silmarillion, especially the very early (purer?) version, does all of that: building the pillars by which all is to be sustained and putting forward the very spirit of the Legendarium.

I do hope that our proposals won't be for naught ;)

Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #94 am: 27. Mai 2017, 23:14 »
Dear fellows of mine, our own odyssey has taken us so far, yet one step forward still needs be made. And I'm quite confident that this will be the last aspect to perfect, of this very much complete concept. If you do not mind, let us brace ourselves to the last change which the case requires.

I don't really know how I could overlook such a crucial problematic. Not that I never thought about it, of course, but the issue had never really caught my attention. I'm talking about the buttons: all respectable stances (even the very generic ones) boast different pictures; not solely to focus on graphics or conceptual differentiation, but also for the pressing need to have them be easily recognisable during the actual game. Henceforth, I decided to overhaul graphics and insert two new images. I shall obviously explain the reasons for this particular choice too, as I imagine one could never get away with it, without a decent in-depth explanation xD

1. Narya is the key and main theme of the whole proposal. I thus deem it wise to keep its picture for the normal stance, symbolising that the Ring's general properties are ever-present in the wizard's deeds. This fact is well portrayed by the ensemble that the stance entails: a just proportion between the shield's activation and the prowess of his spells.
2. Gandalf's will of justice makes him commit the ultimate sacrifice: death, in order to vanquish such a mighty enemy. The frame I chose represents him realising the utmost choice that is before him. Yet he's willing to undertake the imperative task, with no fear or second thought. Defeating one of the most terrorising forces of the First Age was certainly worth dying for, albeit the grave departure from Frodo and the Fellowship.
3. Defence is centred on Gandalf's magical shield. So, which other image could ever try to compete with the shield created by the Istar during the battle against Morgoth's fire?

Normal Stance: The Ring of Fire

Gandalf's common statistics. That is, a balanced measure between spell effectiveness and the frequency of the activation of his magical shield.

Aggressive Stance: Will of Justice

Narya inspires Gandalf to fight tyranny and any device of the Evil. His spell damage is amplified by 50% and his attack by 15%. On the other hand, his defence is decreased by 25% and his magical shield will be completely disabled, leaving him vulnerable, in particular, against other heroes and monsters.

Defensive Stance: Imperishable Hope

Narya's flame nourishes the hope of the Istar and his endurance to resist all foul horrors. His defence is increased by 25% and the frequency of the activation of his magical shield will be higher (quite higher), granting him protection against units, monsters and heroes. On the other side, Narya absorbs part of Gandalf's strength to focus on defence and so the damage of his spells is decreased by 50%.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #95 am: 28. Mai 2017, 18:32 »
Very good as always DieWalküre  ;)
I have one suggestion to improve further the graphics bringing more uniqueness. I would create, keeping the normal stance equal, other two different palantir for aggressive and defensive stance for Gandalf the white, keeping your concept for Gandalf the Grey.  In order to underline the two character more :)

Second suggestion: currently the presence of Narya during game is highlighted by a characteristic white light shining from the hand of Cirdan. I would change the color in red for Narya, and I would add a blue and white light for Vilya and  Nenya respectively. The colors are of course related to the stones nestled in the Three.


« Letzte Änderung: 28. Mai 2017, 18:43 von AulëTheSmith »

Offline Garlodur

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #96 am: 28. Mai 2017, 19:00 »

Oh dear, I think I noticed too at some point, but not enough to raise the point. After all, much has been debated in this topic.

Anyhow, although I very much support suitable palantír pictures, I believe the ones you proposed are not ideal. As Aulë already addressed before me, Gandalf has many different forms in the Edain Mod, would it not be weird if only him as The Grey is reflected in his palantír?

I am saying that, if you want the focus to be on Narya and its subtle powers, then make the palantír more about Narya! Now I would do the painting myself if I had the skills of digital painting, but I'll try to explain what I mean.

Normal Stance: leave as it is, this is the iconic picture of Narya after all, meant to be easily recognizable.
Defensive Stance: use the format of the Normal Stance picture but add a whitish/blueish shine to it, as if it were wrapped inside a bubble. Or perhaps draw a white/light-blue oval shape around the whole Ring.
Aggressive Stance: use the format of the Normal Stance picture but emphasise in the centre of the ruby a kind of starry light (no pun intended), indicating the fiery strength radiating through the ring. Alternatively, the background could be 'on fire' by adding radiating horizontal flames.

These would definitely add increased recognition when quickly selected, at least for the player him/herself. I only wonder if the stances need to be identifiable for opponents as well.



Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #97 am: 28. Mai 2017, 20:37 »
I had thought about the implementation of other pictures for Gandalf the White, but the idea doesn't convince me still. That is, leaving Light of the Istari aside, I don't think there could be other suitable alternatives to replace the images I proposed with; Gandalf the White is mainly involved in fighting or leading armies, whereas the confrontation with the Balrog is widely renowned for being the most direct display of power (magic) of the wizard in the entire six-chapter saga. Given the magnitude of the said sequence, I kind of view those scenes/frames as 'universal' for all forms of the Istar, whether he be clothed in grey or white. I would even say that I don't mind them being retained for his corrupted form too. The concepts behind each stance are very clear: the normal influence of Narya, a magical shield and the will to strive for what is good in the world. I personally deem my choice the most immediate of the solutions, comprising a simple yet effective meaning (Narya, fighting harder and magical protection). These basic themes would then be conjugated according to the different circumstances (protection will turn in a barrage of fire, speaking about the corrupted form). I reckon I may have expressed myself in quite obscure or intricate terms, but I hope you will understand the general purpose.

Shining Rings are not an unknown topic throughout the halls of this forum, kind Aulë. We have already suggested something akin, if I recall correctly. But that was quite some time ago, when the international forum was at its beginning. Anyway, the prospect of the Three being visible in a bright fashion doesn't displease me much, as a sort of opposition to the yellow-tone intense light of the One, yet I would go for the easiest path. Narya is a stance and the other two are active abilities (available at level 10); substantially different contexts. Furthermore, don't forget that the Three are invisible to anyone but other Ring-bearers, and that their nature lies in a constant yet silent effect on reality as a whole (space, time and also the psychological/emotional dimension). At the end of the day, it is a quite detached perspective to consider things. Colours themselves might be another problematic to deal with: while diamond-like white could fare well for Galadriel, I guess blue could end up being a bit disturbing in the game and red is usually associated with the Evil in BFME.

Garlodur, I don't agree with you. The reasons are basically identical to the ones I presented in the first paragraph. I also add that the reference to the films is for me a prime motive; something I much prefer, compared to pictures which would eventually consist of the same core concept, edited and with additional effects.

I am saying that, if you want the focus to be on Narya and its subtle powers, then make the palantír more about Narya!

Narya is already in the main spot. It is the central feature that finds a balance between protection and spell effectiveness; what ties things together. The option one will normally and often use.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #98 am: 29. Mai 2017, 13:34 »

Well, as usual the bases of our Moderator are very strong and it is very difficult to find a defect in his concepts xD. Maybe this time is also a matter of personal tastes. I have to say also the issue raised by Garlodur about an easy recognition is very logic and important. About this the two images DieWalkure chosen are quite recognizable (at least the one of bubble shield is very fitting, i like it very much).
As for the differentiation the Grey/the White, may i try to convince you? xD I must admit is very difficult to find display of magic in White form. The Light of the Istari is simply just used as palantir for the ability itself so we cannot count it  :(.  That's what i propose:

AGGRESSIVE STANCE

  : the first is not a display of magic but it is iconic in my opinion. The last fight against evil. Also Narya has an effect on melee attack so is not so out of place (addition: gandaf holding his sword it's a quite recognizable image as aggressive stance i suppose). The second one is a very important moment in the trilogy, and it's a display of the new power gained by the white wizard. But i prefer the first because is more immediate.

DEFENSIVE STANCE

:
probably it is the only scene in which Gandalf the white uses a sort of magic protection (even if i'm not sure he uses the same bubble shield of the Grey). In this moment is clear he became the most powerful of the Istari, replacing Saruman as chieftain. The images are of the same scene in different angles. I like the first, Gandalf is still surrounded by flames. The second maybe it's the most immediate.

Do you like the idea guys?


I have still a lot to wander here my dear Diewalkure  :D. I understand the issue of the color. And yes, my idea was to underline the presence of the Three in contrast to the One. We can also simply find a common color, white is the most suitable, like the image i posted. But i must say the idea of shining stones (red-ruby, blue-sapphire, white-diamond) intrigues me a lot  :D . Do you think is possible to find color tones which are not disturbing-confusing?
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Mai 2017, 14:47 von AulëTheSmith »

Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #99 am: 29. Mai 2017, 14:26 »
You may. You may certainly try me, Aulë of multi-shaped skills xD

I appreciate the attempt, really, but the problem is still haunting us though. We don't have a proper display of those mentioned themes, when it comes to Gandalf the White. Better, we don't dispose of images that could live up to the magical clash against the Balrog, which is undoubtedly the most difficult challenge that the wizard had to undergo; the ultimate sacrifice for justice, lest a loose Balrog resulted in the ruin of the Good. I shall therefore dissent from you, in the most polite and open-minded of the approaches. I can't really find them satisfying, albeit recognising their intrinsic value. For example, do you think that Gandalf being about to be hit by a fireball could genuinely convey the inherent importance of a shield, as the shield summoned against the Balrog does? I would thus regard the proposed pictures (the ones I presented) as the embodiment of Gandalf's essence and truest spirit, regardless of his status or robes.

So, the only reasonable scope for colours in the game would exactly be a white tone, as you indicated. Yet the issue still persists: when is the effect supposed to be activated? Narya is an easy context, but what about the other two ultimate abilities? I also think we might face the backlash of those of the Community who are not particularly fond of this kind of persistent effects on heroes; we have always seen and played with Gandalf without any sort of brightness accompanying his actions. As you see, we're treading not so viable ways.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #100 am: 29. Mai 2017, 15:18 »

About the superiority of the Balrog's sequences and all the magic related to it you're completely right. There's no other scene as epic as the fight between two opposit maiar spirits. I hope the differences between robes and status will be not so evident in game, especially because of graphical impact. Maybe i'm not so convinced only because i still cannot see how it will look like in game  ;)
   


I suppose you definitely convince me is not a good idea as a general perspective. So i give up  :D . I'm not so personally disturbed by the permantent effects we are talking about. But for sure the most lore-loyal and generally shared idea by the community would be to remove all of those effect from the Three (even the one that is currently applied to Cirdan), with the exception of the One of course. In particular to highlight the invisibility effect and silent-acting of the Elven rings.   
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Mai 2017, 10:22 von AulëTheSmith »

Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #101 am: 29. Mai 2017, 15:55 »
I'm glad you tried to consider things in their deepest meaning. I myself am quite comfortable with having those frames (related to the grey form) for the other versions equally; I don't know, the idea of general/common archetypes for a certain character pleases me very much. Think about the button showing Seaweed Galadriel in the Ancient Might proposal (Eerie Aura), even though she is not to assume that grotesque appearance. It is more the symbolism behind that matters.

I hope my words have not turned out to be too intricate to go through. Intricacy is one of my flaws, I confess :D

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #102 am: 29. Mai 2017, 17:31 »
I really don't know why this much effort is going into the pictures. Everyone agrees with the concept (which I do as well). I would make a suggestion, instead of the bubble around Gandalf when he faces the balrog, why not use the picture where he makes a massive bubble against Sauron in Desolation of Smaug? For the Aggressive stance, I say pick whatever you guys want.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #103 am: 30. Mai 2017, 01:04 »
I really don't know why this much effort is going into the pictures.

Graphics is most of the times the minor aspect to develop in a proposal, but I'm sure it does have its important part in the whole process equally. In this case, once we had resolved the complications of Ulmo's excessive presence in Círdan's spells, I deemed it necessary to bring differentiation to a slightly higher level. I'm personally very sensitive about graphical matters, since I have a passion for details and I believe (based on my personal experience) that good visuals might have a not so indifferent impact on people, both psychologically and emotionally. Not to mention the overall standards of this project: some images in the game come from the genius of Ted Nasmith (the official illustrator of LOTR and the Silmarillion, who also inspired PJ and WETA in their work) and the picture presented for Ossë is probably one of the most lore-accurate I have ever seen. This is no daunting task or obligation to meet, don't mind me ;)

The shield used against the Balrog is far more superior to the one that Sauron eventually breaks. The embodiment of the iconic and epic nature of the very trilogy; a sequence we will never forget. Nevertheless, there is also a more practical problematic: the shield performed in Dol Guldur (that precise frame) is Sauron's current button for his shadow form. I don't think it would be wise to recycle that picture and assign it to the Dark Lord's nemesis on Middle-earth.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Narya
« Antwort #104 am: 31. Mai 2017, 21:02 »
As long as the concept is implemented I am not worried about the pictures. Though it does seem kinda weird that the power is of Narya, and Narya isn't in the aggressive or defensive picture--again though the pictures don't mean that much to me as long as the concept itself is implemented into the mod.

Diewalkure, if you feel that ET would accept this proposal due to the pictures you picked then go for it.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.