Narya

[NoldorSithLordsShipwright]

I would like to give my vote IN FAVOR of DieWalkure's well thought out and very lore friendly proposal.

[Walküre]

But there should be problem because Gandalf gets magic dmg buff in 1. lvl with his stances what is not that great in terms of gameplay balance, but that could be solved with scaling damage of abilitys with Gandalfs levels.

Magic already scales, if I'm not wrong. It was one of the most stringent issues that needed to be fixed. And it was thus fixed in the 4.4 patch or in the following updates (if I recall correctly).

As I replied to other considerations of that sort, one should not forget that going for the aggressive stance poses a notable risk for the player: having the bubble shield completely deactivated and defence decreased. An effective counter-attack of the opponent would aim at striking the wizard in the most sudden of the ways; performing most of Gandalf's spells requires some time, leaving open spaces for the enemies to intervene. That's why I don't feel like adding even more burdensome penalties to this feature. Nevertheless, the idea of effects on cool-down is something that doesn't displease me either. Speaking about the general concept, it may certainly be a minor addition, yet consistent and much fitting for whom it involves (even the people who didn't agree have acknowledged this); a proposal which lives up to the Edain Mod's renowned high standards of quality and content. And I do believe that using a 3000-resource major hero as Gandalf in the most interesting way is something the game needs equally.

I would like to give my vote IN FAVOR of DieWalkure's well thought out and very lore friendly proposal.

Thank you very much

[Gandalf The Gray]

THE REPATRIATION OF NARYA

Now all these things were achieved for the most part by the counsel and vigilance of Mithrandir, and in the last few days he was revealed as a lord of great reverence, and clad in white he rode into battle; but not until the time came for him to depart was it known that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire. At the first that Ring had been entrusted to Círdan, Lord of the Havens; but he had surrendered it to Mithrandir, for he knew whence he came and whither at last he would return.

‘Take now this Ring,’ he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.’

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Following in the footsteps of the recent wide-ranging and extremely fruitful debate regarding Gandalf and possible solutions to make him even more canonical, I present the final proposal that emerged from differing views and a lot of insightful debating. May I just say that I find this a valuable compromise which aims to add the only missing piece to the Grey/White Wizard's design, while respecting the binding limits of this tough (very tough) topic. Many thanks to all the ones who participated with passion to the development of the thread and shared their precious ideas. In particular, a special merit ought to be given to Haman (who helped me in finding the right conclusion) and to dkbluewizard (who started the discussion in the first place). Henceforth, we here propose the final and totally lore-accurate repatriation of Narya to its legitimate owner during the War of the Ring (and most of the events of the fall of Arnor).

The premises: The current presence of Narya in the game is a clear violation of the lore, even though the reasons behind this choice (as I understood them) have a logic. All the Three Rings are in fact in Elven hands. As the quotation at the beginning tells, though, the lore speaks clearly; Narya belongs to Gandalf and to him only. It's only in the hands of the Istar that the Ring of Fire could fully fulfil its duty, which was granting endurance to the bearer (in all perils) and inspiring in the people the will to fight any form of tyranny, until the victory of the Good.

Given that the Edain Mod is mainly based on the War of the Ring, and Gondor is one of the factions that embody the cinematographic trilogy the most, I think it's quite imperative that Narya be in the hands of the one who wields it in the faction's timeline. The very theme at the core of LOTR is the conflict against the Evil of Middle-earth and the strife of the Free People to preserve their freedom; this is also the theme from which Narya and Gandalf's deeds feed. And we shouldn't forget that Gondor represents also the primary duty of Men in defending the World, as the Elves did in the First Age. So, taking all these premises into account very carefully, I would say it's of paramount importance to return that Ring of Power to Mithrandir, in line with the true essence of the Edain Mod and of Gondor itself. Thus, the Three Rings would be available in three different factions (Rivendell, the Golden Wood and Gondor), each of them with its proper characterisation and in the just place. Círdan, on his side, would then be appointed the role he's supposed to have during Imladris' timeline; that is, the guardian of the Grey Havens, destined to wait until all the mightiest Eldar of a noble lineage sail to the West (indicating the end of the Third Age). In my opinion, going back to his actual characterisation does do justice to Círdan, as I have always seen him as a kind of in-between character, who loves the mortal shores and longs for the Undying Lands at the same time (his Palantír is the only one able to go beyond Arda's borders and even reach Eressëa). His interest is mainly into the Sea, and not into the active and dynamic role of leading the Good against Sauron; role that truly pertains to whom bears Narya.

Círdan's current ability (involving the Ring of Fire) will be simply renamed Gift of the Sea. As for the icon picture, I guess an image of the Grey Havens or of the Sea itself will do fine.

In the game: Due to the very well-known limitations that we had to deal with in proposing a concept for this extremely iconic and particular hero, we eventually opted for a stance system, so that no abilities will be altered, nor will Gandalf's role as a mass-slayer be changed even slightly. One could see the addition of Narya as a very smart scope for adhering rightly to the sources (the Three Rings!) and for enhancing the hero's current performance. Furthermore, last but not least, Gandalf happens to be Ealendril's favourite character in the game. We're therefore immensely aware of the difficult task of suggesting this sort of features for this sort of heroes. We nonetheless did our best. I hope you will appreciate the effort and the content.

Gandalf's current sixth slot will be naturally used for Narya's stances, in the way I'll illustrate below. Narya will thus influence the hero's attack and defence, by enhancing/decreasing the effectiveness of spells or Gandalf's unique defence mechanism; in regards of the latter aspect, we wanted to tie this concept to his magical shield (something I really like), in order to give the Ring of Fire its own proper visual display, as Vilya and Nenya have their own in the game. Henceforth, the magical shield will signal that Narya is casting its Magic to protect its bearer!

Normal Stance: The Ring of Fire

Gandalf's common statistics. That is, a balanced measure between spell effectiveness and the frequency of the activation of his magical shield.

Aggressive Stance: Will of Justice

Narya inspires Gandalf to fight tyranny and any device of the Evil. His spell damage is amplified by 50% and his attack by 15%. On the other hand, his defence is decreased by 25% and his magical shield will be completely disabled, leaving him vulnerable, in particular, against other heroes and monsters.

Defensive Stance: Imperishable Hope

Narya's flame nourishes the hope of the Istar and his endurance to resist all foul horrors. His defence is increased by 25% and the frequency of the activation of his magical shield will be higher (quite higher), granting him protection against units, monsters and heroes. On the other side, Narya absorbs part of Gandalf's strength to focus on defence and so the damage of his spells is decreased by 50%.

Given that the mission of the Istar started as soon as he had set foot on Middle-earth (around 1000 T.A.), Arnor's Gandalf and the Blue Mountains' Gandalf will be equally endowed with Narya. Gandalf the White will make usage of this feature in the same way Gandalf the Grey does (no changes). Gandalf the Corrupted will activate Narya in the same way too, but, instead of a magical shield, the Ring of Fire will automatically (with a given frequency) create disruptive blazes/explosions of fire (a case similar to when Zaphragor is under the influence of Might of the Witch-king). Gandalf the Blessed will have his defence and attack respectively increased or decreased by 100%, alongside the magical shield getting even stronger.

But will gandalf get a different skill with every stance ?.

[Walküre]

What do you mean? Everything of fundamental note is indicated and explained in detail in the first presentation post. The new stance system we proposed doesn't alter any of the current iconic skills of the wizard. It is a mechanism that links his bubble shield with Narya, going back to the canonical sources. A sort of rationalisation of an aspect that would otherwise remain in the shadow, or as a loose feature of the hero.

[mycaelspear]

I'm for the proposal.

[Secret Keeper]

I am IN FAVOR and NOT IN FAVOR at the same time.   

I like changes in general and finally some changes to unchanged Gandalf are always welcome. All very well thought.

I have 2 issues with that:
 1. I don't like having more than one hero with special stances. Right now Denethor uses this system and I think it is more than enough. It kills the uniqueness.

 2. +50% magic damage combined with Gandalf the White spell-book bonus of another 100% makes incredible 150% increase in magic damage, + -25% recharge time on spells. Thats huge. You can change stances really freaking fast with D, F, G buttons so you can fight in defensive stance with frequent  bubble shield and not decreased basic attack, then in milliseconds change to aggressive stance, kill everything with 150% magic damage and in milliseconds change back to defensive. That's OP AF. :/
 

[Walküre]

Thank you for having taken the proposal into notice. Concerning your two issues with the concept, this is my answer.

1. Thranduil and Sauron dispose of a unique stance system too. As I replied to Elendil, I don't mind having major heroes sporting smart systems for the sake of differentiation, provided that each suggestion is conceptually worthy in itself. This is nothing more than the true spirit of the Edain Mod.

2. I personally deem the proposal balanced and sound, even in light of Gondor's new spellbook (of which I and Haman were obviously aware at the time). Set aside Word of Power (extremely destructive by definition, no matter how you want to look at it), his other spells require a moment to be cast, thus exposing Gandalf to a serious peril, if the opponent knows well the disadvantages of the defensive stance. Anyway, as I wrote earlier, numbers and values were not my prime purpose in presenting this concept; I will gladly let the Edain Team decide, and mend things that they consider broken. I would just like to address the side of yours that is in favour of Narya: judging by the underlying conceptual and lore-accurate properties, do you find it proper for the rational and diverse universe of the Mod? This is what one should primarily focus on, in my opinion.

[Secret Keeper]

Thank you for having taken the proposal into notice. Concerning your two issues with the concept, this is my answer.

1. Thranduil and Sauron dispose of a unique stance system too. As I replied to Elendil, I don't mind having major heroes sporting smart systems for the sake of differentiation, provided that each suggestion is conceptually worthy in itself. This is nothing more than the true spirit of the Edain Mod.

I meant in one faction. Denethor in Gondor, Theodred in Rohan etc...

Otherwise, I find the proposal really good and useful. I don't have a proper lore knowledge, I judge from my own idea about what would help and made gameplay funnier, more enjoyable. That is why balance issue pop in my head - I just immediately thought about playing against a good Gondor player   

[Walküre]

I meant in one faction. Denethor in Gondor, Theodred in Rohan etc...

And I also referred to the game in general. If they're enough differentiated, I can't see any defect in that. Gandalf is the Ring hero of the faction and its major 3000-resource wizard. He fairly deserves such a feature as Galadriel, Saruman and other akin mighty characters would do. Conceiving smart stance systems for the most powerful heroes is an idea I have always favoured

Of course, your balance-related concern is absolutely legitimate. I trust the developers' judgement on the matter, be it adjusting values or adding new effects. I'm nonetheless glad to hear that we managed to attract your interest.

[AulëTheSmith]

Hello fellows of modding union ;
Today i want to present you a little rework of the first Cirdan’s ability. Inlight to the new concept crafted by DieWalkure regarding Narya, probably Cirdan won’t be the keeper of the Ring Of Fire anymore in the near future. For this reason we have a new free slot  for the first level power.
Since probably most of you (me either) like also the current leadership effect of Narya, i tried to find something to replace it maintaining this aspect (the ability to inspire people). The idea i came up is about The Horns of Ulmö (also called The Horns of Ylmir or Ulumùri).

Reporting some quotes from the books:

“At times [Ulmo] will come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again”.   The Silmarillion

“[Ulmo] spoke to them, and made music upon his conches, and changed the fear of all who heard him into a great desire for the Sea. “.  The War of the Jewels

“…'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th' unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling—and shall hear them till my death”.                                  Tuor sing a song to Earendil about the vision of the Conches of Ulmö (Ylmir),  The Shaping of Middle-earth

Ulmo is also described as the best singer during the music of Ainur, and he‘s the one who teaches the art of music to the Elven. Keeping in mind this,and inspired by the descriptions, i imagend his horns sounding all over the battlefield, filling the hearts of the Eldar of courage and desire, and making them stronger (“…changed the fear of all who heard him into a great desire for the Sea”):

Horns of Ylmir (Level1) (requires activation): Cirdan calls the aid of Ulmö to help him in battle. The King of the Sea makes music upon his horns, awakeing the sea-longing of those who hear it and canceling their fear. For 30 seconds allied units all over the map are fearless and  gain +30% attack.

The link between the Shipwright and the Vala  is well-known, and i think that would be great to bring again a bit more of Ulmö in Cirdan’s skillset. Like the new ability developed by the Edain team, my concept is also a map-covering ability. That because we are talking about a Vala, and so it would be unrealistic and unfitting to limit the mighty sound of a divine instrument only in a small radious around Cirdan.
With respect to the old mechanism of Narya (passive effect+active (with cooldown)) this one is only a temporary boost. This choiche makes the ability more offensive and well-suited for a charge or a siege (like the one developed by the Edain team), but can be used also to overturn a disadvantageous situation.
Values of course can be changed: what i hope is that you like the general idea. Let me know what you think about it and give me some feedback about possible changes, lore-aspects, balance in game and so on 

[Garlodur]

Thank you for the contribution, I agree that Cirdan's first ability needs some reconceptualisation.

I see you have backed your idea with knowledge of lore, as this satisfies not just the real geeks here ( ) but also makes sense of any concept. However, the implementation is not very innovative because it sounds exactly like the Spell Book Horn of the Noldor, except that it is global and far too strong for a level 1 ability.

What I enjoy in Cirdan's new concept is that he remains a very steady hero (before he was a bit dull for this reason) who can shine at very important moments in battle. Of course I do not know how this will play out in the patch but I think the ET shares this intention.

Anyhow, such an ability that you propose moves away from the Narya ability in place. There is no passive effect and the active effect is not so strong where it matters on the battlefield.

The way I see Narya worked out of Cirdan's skill set is just by changing the background for this ability while maintaining its function.

For example, the ability could be called The First and Last, framing it around the fact that Cirdan is one of the eldest Elves in Middle-Earth, while also being the last after almost all other Noldor and Sindar remainders to leave towards Valinor. In gameplay it means he is considered an inspiration amongst the Elves, while protecting with great 'resourcefulness' in times of momentary need.

I hope to have sparked the debate around this a litte, as I deem it of importance to the implementation of Narya to Gandalf that a good alternative is found.

[Walküre]

Yours is an absolutely fitting and conceptually precious proposal, Aulë. Thank you for having spent your time in crafting that. Gift of the Sea was meant to be a mere replacement for Círdan, but I guess we may now say that we have conceived a concept as proper for the hero as Narya is for the Istar. Totally in line with Tolkien's vision.

Ulmo does stand before all the other Valar in might, apart from Manwë and Varda (the mightiest of all). In the words of the quotation below, the Vala of the oceans can count on the genuine love of the Eldar, whom he often helps and guides. Rivers, streams and seas tell him and whisper the events of mortal lands, so that very little is in the end a secret for the Lord of the Water. Following in the footsteps of Narya's hope-infusing nature, this feature will equally rekindle hope in the hearts of the Elves. I took the liberty to create the button of the very ability and to rename it Ulumúri, because I personally deem it a better title (a bit more mysterious and sea-like). I have also found a suitable sound: something that you, Aulë, will hopefully recognise in a second

Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar. At times he win come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again. But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Valaquenta

Ulumúri (Level 1): The Horns of Ylmir resound in battle, in times of struggle and strife. For 15 seconds all allied units on the map are fearless. Surrounding units gain +10% attack.

Sound: Horns of Ylmir.

I adjusted values a little, since the ability was objectively too much effective for the very first level. Furthermore, Garlodur, I think that an Ulmo-related concept is everything one could hope for, speaking about Círdan. Water is a theme we ought not to do without in this context, and the Vala himself has helped marine Elves many times, since the Elder Days. The proposal represents the hope-infusing aspect of Narya in another fashion (unique). And I do believe that the effects themselves don't render Círdan a so dynamic of a force, if you consider that those properties may serve well even for defence. A simple replica of the current ability wouldn't do justice to this concept; the idea itself behind the horn is quite compelling indeed, in the logic of an active feature. Anyway, I'm happy to know that we could have a debate about it. I'm open to anyone's thoughts

The prime proposal is Ulmo's enchanted horns, for now. If other ideas arise, I shall gladly include them too. I will also translate all of this in German.

[The_Nazgul]

I'm totally agree with this idea after all this is my hour and i will break the wizard by my lord's will so why not let him wear his ring, (eowyn smile in background)

[Walküre]

I'm totally agree with this idea after all this is my hour and i will break the wizard by my lord's will so why not let him wear his ring, (eowyn smile in background).

Well, ok

Thank you for the support. If you look at my forum signature, you will find another major concept. Will the ring-wraith be able to withstand Galadriel's ancient might?

[AulëTheSmith]

I hope to have sparked the debate around this a litte, as I deem it of importance to the implementation of Narya to Gandalf that a good alternative is found.

I think you have sparked the debate And also debates is the reason why this forum has been created i suppose . About the matter you are right: problably if we found a way to substitute Narya that is convincing the easier will be to implement the concept of Gandalf as a new keeper (the two topics are complementary).

Anyhow, such an ability that you propose moves away from the Narya ability in place. There is no passive effect and the active effect is not so strong where it matters on the battlefield. The way I see Narya worked out of Cirdan's skill set is just by changing the background for this ability while maintaining its function.
 

I find it very hard to maintain the function as itself changing the name and background: the current mechanism passive+active is inevitably related to the magic ring itself as a magic tool: it has a passive aura and you can activate it exploiting its full power when needed   The first idea of DieWalkure about it ("Gifts of the sea") i think was also directed towards some magic tools or magic gift  in general

Yours is an absolutely fitting and conceptually precious proposal, Aulë. Thank you for having spent your time in crafting that.

It's a pleasure to contribute wise Diewalkure i was lost in passion and mythology so i a bit exagerated with values and effect as also Garlodur rightly underlines . i agree with your adjustments (at least fearless-effect remains map-covering, because it's the major power of the horns following the lore). I would dare to say we can increas a bit the area of influence of that +10% to a medium radius (a compromise between my exagerated values and your balance view) but in any case is a small detail

Very good palantir the drawings of Ted Nasmith are always a pleasure to see and make the Silmarillion alive  . As for the sound i like the low frequencies (they give the idea of a big instrument) and also there is an eco-effect which sounds like something coming from far distances. Very good and thank you very much for your support
I have some ideas about where the sound comes from but i'm not totally sure : it seems a ship horn i think