Narya

[Walküre]

I'm very happy to know that you like the art pieces I chose. As for Gift of the Sea, I wouldn't tinker too much around it. As I said, it was supposed to be an easy replacement for Narya. Nothing major. Ulmo's horns are a far better alternative, under many perspectives. Also, if you think about it, the sea is Ulmo himself. At the end of the day, it's always something from the Lord of the Water

Moreover, as much as I really liked to come up with an equally decent concept for Círdan, I wouldn't regard the two proposals as a so much intertwined situation; one doesn't exclude the other. And Narya is naturally the main focus of this topic, given its structured system and utmost importance. Repatriating the Ring of Fire to his true owner is our paramount goal and thus goes beyond what is to come in regards of the Keeper of the Havens. It's legitimate to endeavour for a great result in the other direction too, provided that one side doesn't bind the other.

[AulëTheSmith]

, I wouldn't regard the two proposals as a so much intertwined situation; one doesn't exclude the other. And Narya is naturally the main focus of this topic, given its structured system and utmost importance. Repatriating the Ring of Fire to his true owner is our paramount goal and thus goes beyond what is to come in regards of the Keeper of the Havens. It's legitimate to endeavour for a great result in the other direction too, provided that one side doesn't bind the other.

As for complementary i meant they are related in the way if we find a good alternative for Cirdan it's even easier to facilitate Gandalf-Narya. But of course it's not  so relevant : i would say it matters like a 5-10%, the other 90-95% goes to the main topic of this thread
Am i right about the sound? or totally lost?

[Walküre]

You got the percentages quite right, I guess

I'll give you some hints about the sound, in good time. Besides, feel free to discuss matters and different problematics related to the topic.

[AulëTheSmith]

Here is the answer to the sound mystery (too much time without AOM makes me blind in looking for the answer, to say it more properly makes me deaf  ). For those who don't know we are talking about the Einherjar, soldiers of Valhalla,great heroes died on earth:
 

DieWalkure there's no sound as mythical as the horns of Valhalla! 

As for the topic: i'm thinking about a new (small but unique) feature about the new ability. I will post later the general idea 

[Garlodur]

Ulmo does stand before all the other Valar in might, apart from Manwë and Varda (the mightiest of all). In the words of the quotation below, the Vala of the oceans can count on the genuine love of the Eldar, whom he often helps and guides. Rivers, streams and seas tell him and whisper the events of mortal lands, so that very little is in the end a secret for the Lord of the Water. Following in the footsteps of Narya's hope-infusing nature, this feature will equally rekindle hope in the hearts of the Elves. I took the liberty to create the button of the very ability and to rename it Ulumúri, because I personally deem it a better title (a bit more mysterious and sea-like). I have also found a suitable sound: something that you, Aulë, will hopefully recognise in a second

Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar. At times he win come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again. But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Valaquenta

Ulumúri (Level 1): The Horns of Ylmir resound in battle, in times of struggle and strife. For 15 seconds all allied units on the map are fearless. Surrounding units gain +10% attack.

Sound: Horns of Ylmir.

This is exactly the form of reconceptualisation I was referring to. I see now that I might have sounded too judgmental of the Úlmo aspect of this proposal. My apologies for this to Aulë.

I adjusted values a little, since the ability was objectively too much effective for the very first level. Furthermore, Garlodur, I think that an Ulmo-related concept is everything one could hope for, speaking about Círdan. Water is a theme we ought not to do without in this context, and the Vala himself has helped marine Elves many times, since the Elder Days. The proposal represents the hope-infusing aspect of Narya in another fashion (unique). And I do believe that the effects themselves don't render Círdan a so dynamic of a force, if you consider that those properties may serve well even for defence. A simple replica of the current ability wouldn't do justice to this concept; the idea itself behind the horn is quite compelling indeed, in the logic of an active feature.

Indeed, the ability as you proposed, Walk, seems ready to be included in the mod. It synthesises the core concepts behind the original Narya power and Aulë's proposal: instilling hope and providing a temporary boost to morale.

Actually now I think of it, the Edain Team has not shared the revamped Imladris spell book yet. In their efforts to make all faction spell books unique, they might decide to take away the Horn of the Noldor spell. If this Ulumúri ability were to be implemented it would provide a greater alternative to the thematically weaker, standard Horn spell.
In terms of balance, removing the Horn spell that massively boosts Imladris troops in absolute terms would not be such a miss if you consider that Imladris units have two abilities themselves.

Anyhow, the discussion continues and I dearly hope the Edain Team will pick up on the developments in this thread.

P.S. I honestly believe we won't see Narya implemented as proposed in 4.5 yet, just so we can have a taste of the new Gandalf. It is more likely to be included in a bug/patch fix. Any comments Walk?

[Walküre]

I'm glad you managed to view the whole portrait in a wider perspective, Garlodur. Regarding the 4.5 patch and the major concepts from the Community, I'm bidden not to reveal anything too much specific. As the Edain Team has already hinted at (and as you may simply guess), there are still things that have to be done before the actual release; some additional time is thus needed. Speaking about this fine concept and Ancient Might, I/we did anything in our power to make things easier for the developers and to facilitate the whole work load to do (providing all that ought to be presented). After the development of spellbooks, I wouldn't find it impossible if these two (Ulmo's horns included) concepts were to be in the forthcoming patch. Nevertheless, if they were actually and finally implemented, you would only know this via the Edain Team's official words. I myself can't share internal information (a just and reasonable boundary).

Whether the upcoming update will contain more than it's planned, this I may not tell thee

[AulëTheSmith]

This is exactly the form of reconceptualisation I was referring to. I see now that I might have sounded too judgmental of the Úlmo aspect of this proposal. My apologies for this to Aulë.

Don't worry Garlodur, i have been a bit hurried proposing that +30% all over the map but i believe the general idea it would be epic in game and our moderator Diewalk found a perfect balance version of the power as well as good sound and palantir

As you wrote we don't know how the new spellbook of Imladris will be renovate but you rightly point out an important matter : the Noldor warrios just have some abilities to improve their parameters (another reason because my +30% was too much  ).
So said that probably is not a pity if ET will remove Horn of the Noldor, if not for the iconic sound that personally i like very much

As an addition i would like to propose something, it's totally secondary as importance, probably only an unachievable desire, but i want to share it:

- we have in the game some situations in which units can take advantage from nature: in some cases "creating" it via spellbook (tained land, elven wood, ect..), in other cases
exploiting the map itself (archers, ent concealed under the trees).

-About the first type : i guess ET probably will remove Elven Wood spell from Imladris (it is more fitting as iconic Lothlorien spell). if will be so, then i think that an element which fits with Noldor could be the water. Liking the matter again with Ulmö:

But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government

So why not including a spell about water as source of inspiration? (like other terrain type spell)
How? well it is not so simple (we cannot create a walkable terrain of water of course  ). An idea could be to use water elements of the map as a source of inspiration, as well as fountains: when you activate the spell all the units near sea,lake,river, fountains get some bonus (i don't want to propose anything exagerated again, i promise  )

-About the second type ,possibility to exploit the natural water sources of the map passively and so permanetly, maybe it would be too much op. But considering is map-dependent power (as the woods for Lothlorien) is a limitation itself. For this reason i considered also this possiblity.

-The last : bonus addition to Ulumùri. During the 15 seconds of the power all the units near sea,rivers,lakes,fountain and so on get some additional bonus (further +5% of attack for example, or a slow healing which gives more the idea of restoration due to Ulmö's music flowing through the water).

Maybe it seems a bunch of raw proposals which don't make any sense anyhow let me know what you  think about it and if you have some suggestion to elaborate more this idea. 

P.s : i know the water is just present via Flood, Elrond and a defensive system.
However, my proposal it explores a totally different matter about the same element so i deem it worthy of consideration 
 
 

[Walküre]

To synthesise a little bit, I quite like the idea of an ability that relies on actual water sources of the given map, but I'm not completely sure about the technical feasibility of such a system, nor do I think that a level-1 ability should be that 'sophisticated'. In addition, there is the obvious limitation of the own water of each scenario to deal with: not all maps boast water as their features and Elven Wood, on the contrary, allows the player to create woods in the first place (whereas Ulmo's horns can't summon rivers or streams at will).

I would therefore suggest we stick to the original concept we conceived. The fact that the enchanted horns of the sea-Vala will resound all over the map exactly symbolises that Ulmo's powers may reach nearly every place, as Tolkien tells us. Should you not be swayed by this argument, you could always imagine Ulmo spreading his influence via all the water sources which find themselves under the surfaces of the ground (be it frozen wastes or dry deserts).

[AulëTheSmith]

I would therefore suggest we stick to the original concept we conceived. The fact that the enchanted horns of the sea-Vala will resound all over the map exactly symbolises that Ulmo's powers may reach nearly every place, as Tolkien tells us. Should you not be swayed by this argument, you could always imagine Ulmo spreading his influence via all the water sources which find themselves under the surfaces of the ground (be it frozen wastes or dry deserts).

I wouldn't change a dot of the actual proposal because it's perfect maybe my proposal could be a little addition, as I wrote, not something to change the nature of it. But you stated a right thing: the idea of spreading ulmö's inspiration probably it is just satisfied by the only horn itself . I just want to share this idea because I like the relation Elven and nature elements.

Going into the technical field and separating the matter from ulmo's proposal : even thinking about a possible spell or passive spell to add in spellbook maybe it's difficult to recognize the elements of water as object, but I'm not an expert in this field. As for the dependency by the type of map I also underline the matter of woods (natural not from spellbook) from which Elven and ent can take advantage: this is a clear example of another map-dependency in the game

Anyway DieWalk I'm totally satisfied with the current ulmö's proposal and this is what will be presented to the team all I wrote about water is secondary 

[Walküre]

Hello, it's me. Are you ready to be pestered again by intricate lore-related matters?

No, leaving jokes behind, I have a last dilemma about the implementation of Ulmo's enchanted horns. As you may have noticed, the proposal has been finalised and any problematic of significant note has been carefully debated too, apart from a certain matter: I'm talking about Círdan's last ability, with which he is to be endowed in the next patch. I admit that I read the article a couple of months ago, and I have consequently overlooked the presence of such feature. Ulmo's Aid will temporarily enhance all allied ships and siege machines of the map, and, as you may see, the concept deals with Ulmo as well. Henceforth, taking for granted that the power itself will retain its effects, we are in front of a quite apparent conceptual issue: the same reference to Ulmo.

Now, in my own personal opinion, I wouldn't really mind having two abilities characterised by the same lore background, were we to view all of that as a smart fact, since the beginning and the end of the hero's Palantír would both have to do with the supreme ruler of the seas (a kind of 'alpha-omega reasoning'). Yet I nonetheless doubt that the renowned high standards of the Edain Mod would ever concede any ground for two akin features (conceptually similar). I have thus been pondering about a proper solution (as I imagine we don't want to renounce Narya or Ulmo's horns), and I think I have come to a decent conclusion: Círdan's last ability will be simply renamed Tutelage/Legacy of Ossë and its corresponding icon picture will be the one I shall provide below.

Ossë is the mightiest and greatest vassal of Ulmo. He commands storms and the impetuous waves of the sea. He was initially approached by Melkor, during the timeless eras before Eä, but he later disowned his friendship and eventually sided with the Valar. Albeit his role, some traits of his character seem to reflect his initial acquaintance of the Enemy, for Ossë rules over bad weather and dangerous marine phenomena too, revealing an indomitable and voluble spirit (as wavering as the waves themselves). I personally regard all the shades of his portrayal as one of Tolkien's best creations. However, the most interesting element that I deem marvellously perfect for our case is his personal friendship with Círdan and his people. One of the major events of the Teleri's ancestral lore is in fact the tutelage of Ossë, whom they had encountered while lingering on the westernmost shores of Beleriand; sent by Ulmo, he befriended them and was no longer willing to depart from their company. So, he managed to convince some of the Sea-elves to remain in Middle-earth (the people ruled by Círdan); the Maia then taught them the mysteries of naval craftsmanship and arts.

According to these premises, Ossë's dynamic nature will connect well with the enhancement of warfare that the ability entails, alongside referring to a pivotal event of the lore.

[NoldorSithLordsShipwright]

I think that's a well fitting solution to the problem, DieWalküre. Linking Cirdan's final ability to Ossë is very lore friendly (possibly more lore friendly than the current link to Ulmo), and you explained your proposal very well, as usual.

[AulëTheSmith]

Ciao Diewalk 
I reread some passage about Ossë and I think is a better reference than Ulmö in this case. The last power is more a matter of siege and shipbuilding. So since Ossë is the master of Teleri, and the one who teaches them how to build ships, he is the most suited for this role.
I agree with your proposal 

[Walküre]

I'm very pleased by your words of appreciation. I too deem the sea-Maia very apt for the situation. Also, isn't it splendid that Tolkien always offers us so many possibilities to explore his vast lore in the game?

This is how the whole (overhauled) concept would be.

Tutelage of Ossë (Level 10): Thanks to the teachings of Ossë, Círdan strengthens all allied ships, buildings and siege engines on the map, granting them +50% armour for 30 seconds.

But of all the Maiar Ossë and Uinen are best known to the Children of Ilúvatar.
Ossë is a vassal of Ulmo, and he is master of the seas that wash the shores of Middle-earth. He does not go in the deeps, but loves the coasts and the isles, and rejoices in the winds of Manwë; for in storm he delights, and laughs amid the roaring of the waves. His spouse is Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky. All creatures she loves that live in the salt streams, and all weeds that grow there; to her mariners cry, for she can lay calm upon the waves, restraining the wildness of Ossë. The Númenóreans lived long in her protection, and held her in reverence equal to the Valar.
Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it. It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him. So it was that long ago there arose great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands. But Uinen, at the prayer of Aulë, restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful. For the most part; for the delight in violence has never wholly departed from him, and at times he will rage in his wilfulness without any command from Ulmo his lord. Therefore those who dwell by the sea or go up in ships may love him, but they do not trust him.

[...]

But when they learned that Ingwë and Finwë and their peoples were gone, then many of the Teleri pressed on to the shores of Beleriand, and dwelt thereafter near the Mouths of Sirion, in longing for their friends that had departed; and they took Olwë, Elwë’s brother, to be their king. Long they remained by the coasts of the western sea, and Ossë and Uinen came to them and befriended them; and Ossë instructed them, sitting upon a rock near to the margin of the land, and of him they learned all manner of sea-lore and sea-music. Thus it came to be that the Teleri, who were from the beginning lovers of water, and the fairest singers of all the Elves, were after enamoured of the seas, and their songs were filled with the sound of waves upon the shore.
When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwë their king. Who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed; but great was the grief of Ossë when Ulmo returned to the coasts of Beleriand, to bear them away to Valinor; for his care was for the seas of Middle-earth and the shores of the Hither Lands, and he was ill-pleased that the voices of the Teleri should be heard no more in his domain. Some he persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, the Elves of the Falas, who in after days had dwellings at the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Círdan the Shipwright was their lord.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion

[AulëTheSmith]

Very good as usual. It has a proper palantir and now the concept has stronger lore bases than the one of the team. Now we have two finalized powers (the first and and last). In my opinion Cirdan is at the top, near perfection now. We have also more taste of the past, his skilset covers a long time period, which is well-suited for the Oldest one 

P.s.:DieWalk, since you worked  about level 10 ability, and level 10 ability will be for sure present in 4.5, it means we have some hope to see Narya+Ulmö's horn in 4.5 as well?  just curiosity

[Walküre]

Exactly. It would be great to have his first and final ability encompass such long span of time (we're probably talking about 10000 years). And, needless to say, his alpha and omega will of course be centred on his truest love: the sea

I don't know whether these suggestions are to be included in the next update. And even if I knew that, I couldn't reveal it either (since I can't give away internal information), unless a specific allowance. All official news and statements concerning what will be are published by the Edain Team in the proper board of the forum. This, as the other concepts belonging to this thread, are still proposals, and they thus ought to be treated that way.