[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

A strategic and conceptual overhaul for Lothlórien/Mirkwood

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Odysseus:
I agree with Bauglir here. Initially, I thought the idea was to give them a a weakness to exploit for the other factions. And since Lothlorien's speciality is archery in warfare, I thought their natural counter would be the best way to exploit the faction and force Lorien players to adapt. However, since the faction's base pikes are pretty strong combined with singers (which I find an awesome concept) I always found those additional cavalry counters completely unecessary (the Palace Guard and the incredibly annoying Elk Riders). That is why I think the appropriate amount of slow and stuns are what gives Lorien moments to skilfully beat opponents that can outmaneuver them and I don't think that is the primary issue.

Obviously, it has proven to be too much. At this point, I don't know what is planned for Lothlorien, but Palace Guard, Singers and the amount of slow and stuns (which initially have little counterplay) all quickly add up leading to Lothlorien being strong against even Imladris with their archers. All I know is, removing base pikes from any faction is a pretty bad idea. Beorning should be cavalry only in my opinion.

Mogat:
+1 what Elendil said.
Moreover I don't see the necessity in this concept at all (including the woodmen).
Yes Lothlorien is way to strong atm but this is going to be fixed in other ways and is much more complicated then just "palaceguards are too strong" (which they are, but this is just a small part of a bigger problem )

Hamanathnath:
I do agree that the numbers on the Palace Guards ability are a bit too high, but I would encourage that if the Singers are to lose their Trample Immunity from their buff, that we keep the Palace Guard's ability the same for now.  This is because while it might be too strong, removing the Trample Immunity will already have a massive effect on Lorien's mid and late game in general, and I would rather not see Lorien get overnerfed in terms of dealing with cavalry.   

Mogat is right about Lorien.  They have multiple problems that lead them to being too strong, with Haldir's Shining Arrow, Legolas's Knives, and Star of Earendil being the biggest problems, at least in my opinion.

As for the Woodsmen, I mainly like them as an addition to Lorien because they would allow the Beornings to be Elite units.  Right now, the Beornings are really not that good, or at least not worth the price to get them, as I rarely see anyone ever get them anymore.  I would really like to see them be useable, but not as overpowered as in previous patches.

Odysseus:
Agreed. Gradual nerfs are the best approach for sure. In my opinion, I'm not too fond of the hybrid Beorning role. I think they should be tanky disruptors only, and serve as the only ''cavalry'' option for Lothlorien. Especially with the recent Ent moot change in the internal beta. That way we can improve them in the aspect that they are supposed to be good in (lore-wise anyway), while taking away from their versatility, which was/is problematic anyway.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Mogat am 15. Feb 2017, 17:52 ---Yes Lothlorien is way to strong atm but this is going to be fixed in other ways and is much more complicated then just "palaceguards are too strong" (which they are, but this is just a small part of a bigger problem).

--- Ende Zitat ---

The issues regarding Palace Guards constituted the origin of the whole debate. Then, as it's plainly exposed in the presentation post, discussion evolved and ended up entangling other factors: namely, the connection with other proposals, a possible redistribution of roles in a wide perspective and the removal of a current concept. I'm well conscious of the broader entity of the topic; that's why I and the other attendees endeavoured a bit to find alternatives or to address related aspects. 'Palace Guards are too strong' is a too simplistic of an approach to consider the development of the debate (along with the reasons behind it), whatever one's opinions may be.

It's exactly the reference to other concepts (of which we don't know the fate yet) that makes the very discussion much diverse; this fact consequently convinced me not to deal with the thread as if it were a complete concept, waiting for people's final review. I guess we had better let the stream of thoughts flow and see where it leads us.

In this speculative perspective and beside the valuable points that have been hitherto brought to the general attention, I would like to explain a few things in a more detailed way. In particular, I feel like pointing out the supposed value of relying on external forces to get anti-cavalry defence in the early game: wouldn't the presence of Woodsmen satisfy Lothlórien's needs in a more unique way, while at the same time offering other possible strategies to follow? Spending resources on them would certainly secure protection from that kind of threats, but not all the fortress'/camp's warfare potential could then be thrown into the battlefield; conversely, making usage of all your regular (initial) forces would also expose one to those said perils (cavalry). The reasoning entrenches itself also with the fact that the very Beorning Homestead would acquire much more importance (and a clearer purpose). As a very conceptual note, I reiterate my opinion on the pikemen: I have never really viewed them as an own element of the base, but rather as an obligated (legitimate, of course) option, fashioned on the traditional border guards from BFME2. Instead of the idea of having border guards with pikes wander around the woods of Lórien, I definitely prefer more lore-accurate Woodsmen coming from outer and wilder woods; in a sense, only swords and bows would therefore tread the ways of Lothlórien (the base), and I find this a quite interesting conceptual property to think about.

So, can Lothlórien (the core of the faction, identified as the base) sustain its efforts and survive the initial phase of the game without pikemen or the hypothetical Woodsmen? Aren't minstrels and the faction's other features sufficient, if one opted not to recruit those anti-cavalry units at the beginning? Minstrels (even without the anti-trampling ability), in particular, could give consistency to other types of strategy, which don't necessarily involve the Beorning Homestead. By the way, as Haman wrote, Beornings would become a truly elite unit, and we shouldn't forget that, hopefully, the Axe of Doriath will strengthen Grimbeorn and grant him a leadership over them; henceforth, an elitist characterisation would limit their activity (and number) too, to compensate for the greater role they are likely to receive in the future. Furthermore, as I hinted in the main post, and with the utmost respect for Fredius' proposal, it's quite necessary that Woodsmen be reasonably weak or lesser in power than Lórien pikemen, given their role as an early-game defence; it's not even necessary for them to be pikemen at all costs.

Here we get to grips, now, with Palace Guards. What I suggested resolves in my opinion a conceptual flaw as well. A kind of contradiction. They are supposed to be the royal guard of the very Thranduil, yet they can currently be recruited at will as one would do with regular troops of an army; in addition, the films don't provide us with scenes of them being busy with different duties, other than protecting their king and patrolling the realm's fortified borders. Were they to be made a heroic unit, to be limited within strict boundaries and to be characterised by versatility, I believe they would serve in a much better way as unique royal guards. In doing so, the legitimate role of regular anti-cavalry units would be appointed to the normal lancers. The real army-type troops: enough strong to fulfil their purpose much better than Woodsmen, but not at the extent of Palace Guards, who must also live up to a high status. Normal/Regular lancers are customary in any respectable host (or military structure). However, should the implementation of those mentioned lancers raise issues about redundancy of heavy units, we could always consider the extreme solution: the complete removal of Palace Guards as permanent troops. If you think about it, they're already implemented via Thranduil's Palantír, in the most elitist of the ways (a real royal guard). Such solution would be absolutely radical though, and a loss of that sort might seriously wound the whole faction greatly.

Regardless of our diverging opinions, many thanks for choosing to participate in the discussion. I hope we will conceive many more ideas. Debating always benefits concepts, after all.

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